Featured Analyzing misconceptions about Pakistan Armed Forces - Objectively

[VCheng]

Superb as usual unless one is stupid and totally biased only then one would mock rank&File and junior officers laying down their lives in the line of duty.

As for flag rank I have already made my point if Zia, Beg, Musharraf, KInani and a few others that come to mind made it to flag rank despite the fact that everything about them was known to the institution, then there is something not right about the elevation criteria to flag rank.

Civilian Govts in Pakistan and dictators all failed to fulfill their end of the bargain as included in the social contract. I understand that people are tax evaders and corrupt generally but those who pay full taxes and are not corrupt has the state delivered on its obligation? May be just may be I am seeing a ray of hope when I saw the features of the sehat insaaf card for KPK last week.

Without wishing to create any acrimony, I would note that an organization that selects the best, then trains them the best, then promotes them through the ranks on merit fairly, does not suddenly fail in selecting its flagged ranks. Those individuals are fully aware of their acts in defiance of the Constitution, but they choose to do what they do to serve their own institution rather than the country. Having said that, it is only fair to also observe that their civilian counterparts choose to serve themselves and their own rather than the country too.

The results speak for themselves.

I admire your desire to see rays of hope, but I'd rather wait for the results to see any hope of a better future for the people of Pakistan. We still have a few years to to be able to see what the present setup will be able to actually achieve rather than what is ardently claimed.

 

[VCheng]

To not conflate rank-and-file with leadership is not really as important a distinction as you suggest. What is now the leadership was once the rank-and-file that gave its sweat and blood in service to the nation. To me this is how things stand: the culture of the institution is such that it is rigged to select and recruit within its ranks its own mediocrity because this mediocrity is mistakenly identified with a peculiar kind of competence which past experience has vindicated as having worked best. Add to this institutional culture a messiah complex and the assumption of infallibility, both of which rise from a habit of practicing unchallengeable brute force and from the belief that the army is only this institution that is a true, merit-based representation of the people of Pakistan, and you have everything that I would consider unpalatable about the army. The creation of built-in mechanisms for self-criticism and retrospection may improve things.

I have already stated that, regardless of what one thinks about the military, it is time to accept the system in Pakistan for what it is, and to look beyond it if there are to be any hopes of improvement. After all, it is only logical that the Army is a mirror of the society from which it arises. As also noted above, the results speak for themselves.

 

[alibaz]

ISSB system needs an update. Too many military brats are making it through as compared to civilian candidates.

Sir do you have any statistics to support highlighted comments. I guess ratio of military background boys converting is more than the ratio of civilian background boys but end of the day these boys with military background are not more than 15-20% of the course.

 

[blain2]

And then start off a rant to show you're the most arrogant person in the room. USA has a military industrial complex as well. Never saw people complaining about that. Oh and do you know how much land and business US Generals own?

Military spending: 20 companies profiting the most from war

Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Raytheon top list of companies profiting from war, according to highest weapons sales data reviewed by 24/7 Wall Street.

www.usatoday.com

Sub nay khullaa khaataa banaya hua hai. Yet only Pakistan is blamed which is why I don't pay too much heed to this biased critique.
In our dealings with the Amreekis, countless retired personalities are involved as middle-men. They are called program execs, directors, managers etc. (all ex-military) who are there for one reason, which is to peddle the wares of their companies and lobby on behalf of them.

What we give to our fauji foundations in the form of land and capital expenditure subsidies, the military-industrial complex in the US rakes in billions more through lobbying and pork barreling. It's not even fair to compare the scale yet the practice is quiet comparable despite the holier than thou attitudes in the west and our neighborhood.

 

[VCheng]

What we give to our fauji foundations in the form of land and capital expenditure subsidies, the military-industrial complex in the US rakes in billions more through lobbying and pork barreling. It's not even fair to compare the scale yet the practice is quiet comparable despite the holier than thou attitudes in the west and our neighborhood.

It may be illuminating to compare the size of the military-industrial complex to the size of the total economy in both countries.

 

[blain2]

It may be illuminating to compare the size of the military-industrial complex to the size of the total economy in both countries.

It would be but the magnitude is not important, rather the point that government support for the military-industrial complex is a global phenomena and not just specific to Pakistan. I don't mind people discussing the pros and cons of the same but let's not single out Pakistan only.

 

[WarKa DaNG]

Thats a very cruel thing to do. What was the fathers motivation for this money? His son makes more etc

I dont think his father needs more money as they are having more properties and commercial lands than what would they earn combinely in their whole life

 

[VCheng]

It would be but the magnitude is not important, rather the point that government support for the military-industrial complex is a global phenomena and not just specific to Pakistan. I don't mind people discussing the pros and cons of the same but let's not single out Pakistan only.

Of course. Every nation does support its own military in a myriad of ways to further national interests in the best way possible, and no one country should be singled out for this. They all do it, equally. Having said that, the economy is perhaps one of the biggest, if not the biggest, determinant of the ability to pursue national interests.

 

[ps3linux]

Without wishing to create any acrimony, I would note that an organization that selects the best, then trains them the best, then promotes them through the ranks on merit fairly, does not suddenly fail in selecting its flagged ranks. Those individuals are fully aware of their acts in defiance of the Constitution, but they choose to do what they do to serve their own institution rather than the country. Having said that, it is only fair to also observe that their civilian counterparts choose to serve themselves and their own rather than the country too.

The results speak for themselves.

I admire your desire to see rays of hope, but I'd rather wait for the results to see any hope of a better future for the people of Pakistan. We still have a few years to to be able to see what the present setup will be able to actually achieve rather than what is ardently claimed.

Sir, I wish we as a nation or historically had a propensity towards upholding merit. Not all selections are based upon merit and not all promotions are based upon merit.

Then there are influences of the society in general, the organizational culture, indoctrination and then there is the problem I say problem of the promotions board, particularly to flag rank.

I see Armed forces like I see Karachi or Islamabad people from all ethnicity/sects are present there so they represent in general the nation albeit on a smaller scale.

So if you see a problem there, it simple means there is a problem in the society and much as I hate to admit it is part of our DNA, historically we have always been like that.

Sir without hope there is no drive towards future, but I am certainly seeing some changes in the society may be as they say better late than ...

I have already stated that, regardless of what one thinks about the military, it is time to accept the system in Pakistan for what it is, and to look beyond it if there are to be any hopes of improvement. After all, it is only logical that the Army is a mirror of the society from which it arises. As also noted above, the results speak for themselves.

I have tried to address this earlier as well, it is too late to try and create a new order people associated with directly/indirectly armed forces of Pakistan serving/retired or foundations would be over 10% of our population, I haven't worked out but I am sure fauji group/DHA/AWT/mari petroleum/ shaheen and many other represent a major chunk of corporate business as well so any attempt to try and isolate/finish them will have disastrous effects.

What we need is to make sure that the law makers we select are law makers and not thugs, who understand public needs and then deliver. We as a nation as a society may be need some soul searching as well, while we are pointing a finger toward one aspect of our society may be three other fingers are pointing towards us.

 

[VCheng]

Sir, I wish we as a nation or historically had a propensity towards upholding merit. Not all selections are based upon merit and not all promotions are based upon merit.

Then there are influences of the society in general, the organizational culture, indoctrination and then there is the problem I say problem of the promotions board, particularly to flag rank.

I see Armed forces like I see Karachi or Islamabad people from all ethnicity/sects are present there so they represent in general the nation albeit on a smaller scale.

So if you see a problem there, it simple means there is a problem in the society and much as I hate to admit it is part of our DNA, historically we have always been like that.

Sir without hope there is no drive towards future, but I am certainly seeing some changes in the society may be as they say better late than ...



I have tried to address this earlier as well, it is too late to try and create a new order people associated with directly/indirectly armed forces of Pakistan serving/retired or foundations would be over 10% of our population, I haven't worked out but I am sure fauji group/DHA/AWT/mari petroleum/ shaheen and many other represent a major chunk of corporate business as well so any attempt to try and isolate/finish them will have disastrous effects.

What we need is to make sure that the law makers we select are law makers and not thugs, who understand public needs and then deliver. We as a nation as a society may be need some soul searching as well, while we are pointing a finger toward one aspect of our society may be three other fingers are pointing towards us.

Of course hope for a better future is a good thing. But what is quite fascinating is the peculiarly Pakistani penchant for revisionism in defiance of abundant evidence to the contrary. Whether it is the mullahization of Quaid-e-Azam Jinnah, the economic achievements of General Ayub, the political acumen of Bhutto, the liberalization of General Zia, the foreign policies of General Musharraf, or the new-found insistence that the military is henceforth going to work within its Constitutional mandates, there is such a coordinated effort to revise history that George Orwell himself would sit up and take notice, if he could.

Of course, none of that matters, because, as I have said above, the results are clear.

In the context of this thread, and with the above observations, I simply cannot afford to counter the narrative presented in the OP. It is what it is, and the results show it, for those who wish to see. My statement is simply observational, without any judgments on the merits or demerits of the arguments presented. The two biggest expenses on the national exchequer continue to be debt servicing and defense, while what little remains is frittered away in corruption and political horsetrading. Thus, Pakistan is unique in being the world's only Muslim nuclear power, but one where people die of starvation in the Thar and millions of children have no hope of ever going to school. Overpopulation and chronic economic under-performance ensure that such distressing trends will continue to their inexorable conclusion.

Let me just end by stating that I would be very happy to be proven wrong, just as I was about the huge export successes of the JF-17/FC-1 program.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[ghazi52]

In NJ State...............

Eligible Veterans are provided an absolute Veterans Preference when applying for a New Jersey civil service position. This means that qualified New Jersey Veterans who receive a passing score are placed at the top of open competitive employment lists, ahead of Non-Veterans, regardless of their scores.

 

[Mumm-Ra]

Personally, I would rather see the high IQ people in more tech related fields as opposed to the military. perhaps, some of "these people" can create a better vaccine or conduct research and produce papers/journals on hard sciences or even tackle the problems of economic mismanagement in our country. Their contributions in this sphere would be far more beneficial to us all then perhaps in the military.

See the case of the death of Henry Moseley in WW1. The guy was a genius and his work on nuclear physics was unparalleled at the time. He died in Gallipoli in 1915 and experts believed he would have been awarded a Nobel prize in Physics in 1916 for his work. His loss is described as the most costly single death of the war.
I would hate to see something similar happen to any of our budding scientists and as we have precious little of them.

The soldier creed is different from normal person to begin with. If a son wants to follow in his father's footstep then it should not be looked down upon. As long as his father is not heavily involved in the selection process, his advantage will be slightly more than other aspirants.

 

[mwaraitch]

ISSB system needs an update. Too many military brats are making it through as compared to civilian candidates.

ISSB is 5 days, PMA is 2 years. Staff course is one year, unit service in at least 4-8 years, staff (with senior officers is 10 years plus ..... none can put them right. Why blame issb, sir