Analysis: Pakistan's Interest in the Altay MBT

[Zarvan]

thats bs

No it's not Altay is way to heavy for us we would go for a lighter version like K2

 

[Signalian]

ok so what do you think the haider(the other tank) woud be?
what can pakistan realistically get based on size, capability and export strings?

the oplot-m was my favourite as it base is from the t80 which pakistan has but the situation in urkraine may cause concern.

the altay is a good tank but it has a german gun and engine, yes and turkish 1800hp engine is in development and so is a turkish gun. but its expensive and very big as compared to existing pakistani tanks. now i dont know about its capabilities on soft surfaces, and high temprature and high humidity enviroments. which is a deciding factor

the vt-4/mbt-3000: its a possibility but i was told it failed trials in pakistan early last year. i was not told why, but it (the enigne) was overheating.

the type 99a or possibly a varient of the type 99a- i dont know about this

the k2- now this is a tank i like it has near enought he same tech as the altay and it's 10 tonnes lighter too. the koreans are looking at pakistan as a market and im sure if pakistan did a similar deal like what turkey did by aquiring the technology which can be used on tanks which pakistan already has (ak,az) and can buy the k2 panther of the shelf as a tot agreement. or if the koreans are not keen on transfering the tech, turkey would be happy to fill in the void and can still buy of the shelf k2's

lepards-challanger 2-m1's-leclerc-ariete-t-14-type10 these are all out of the question. but friendly countries do have advanced tanks which may be willing to send a few to reverse engineer as a gesture of good will or for a good price.

T-80 is one of my fav tanks also, its the spearhead tank of 1st armoured division. Every Russian weapon that Pakistan gets come with transfer of tech problems. One of the reasons why Mi-17 plant isnt set up in Pakistan, i hope JF-17 gets a WS series engine in block III to get rid of RD-93.

There are two problems with K-2.

First its south korean who are heavily influenced by USA. for any US tech or parts in this tank, USA can cause embargo.
On a diplomatic level, SK may also listen to USA than Pakistan or Turkey. This makes thing very complicated. some tech korean, some Turkish, some chinese and final product is a pakistani tank customized to PA requirements.

Secondly, K2 uses a 120mm gun. PA uses 125mm smoothbore.

 

[Anees Abbasi]

Very upgraded Tank.We should buy this from Turkey

 

[Zarvan]

T-80 is one of my fav tanks also, its the spearhead tank of 1st armoured division. Every Russian weapon that Pakistan gets come with transfer of tech problems. One of the reasons why Mi-17 plant isnt set up in Pakistan, i hope JF-17 gets a WS series engine in block III to get rid of RD-93.

There are two problems with K-2.

First its south korean who are heavily influenced by USA. for any US tech or parts in this tank, USA can cause embargo.
On a diplomatic level, SK may also listen to USA than Pakistan or Turkey. This makes thing very complicated. some tech korean, some Turkish, some chinese and final product is a pakistani tank customized to PA requirements.

Secondly, K2 uses a 120mm gun. PA uses 125mm smoothbore.

Things change by time nothing can remain still

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Pakistan Reportedly Interested in the Altay MBT

A look at how Turkey's next-generation main battle tank could be added to the Pakistan Army Armoured Corps

18 January 2016

By Bilal Khan

Although it is in development, the Turkish Altay main battle tank (MBT) is drawing interest from a number of Turkey’s leading arms clients. Among the interested parties is Pakistan, who has sought to cultivate strong defence ties with Ankara, especially over the past decade through a series of arms purchases, joint-exercises and a bilateral pilot training exchange program.

Development of the Altay MBT formally started in 2007 with the aim of not only meeting the Turkish Army’s next-generation MBT requirement, but also to enhance the country’s capacity to source important defence equipment through domestic means. Otokar, a private Turkish firm, became the principal vendor of the program via a $500 million U.S. contract awarded by the Turkish government. In 2008 Otokar approached Hyundai Rotem in South Korea for technical assistance, thus enabling the Altay to draw on technology from the newly deployed K2 Black Panther MBT.

The Altay MBT is the central piece of the Turkish Army’s armour modernization roadmap. Although it should not be a surprise given Turkey’s status as a NATO member, the Altay is a Western tank in terms of its design and goals: It is a heavyweight (65 tons) machine equipped with a 120mm smoothbore gun as well as two additional secondary armaments, a 12.7mm heavy machine gun and a remote-controlled turret. It is powered by a 1500hp diesel engine acquired from the German manufacturer MTU Friedrichshafen GmbH, which may be replaced by an indigenous system in the future. Finally, the tank’s all-round defensive resilience is drawn from its composite armour and an active protection suite.

As one might expect, the Altay is not going to come “cheap,” hence the reason why Pakistan’s interest in this tank is very intriguing. Traditionally, Pakistan has largely sought to acquire lower-cost and lighter-weight tanks such as the al-Khalid and al-Zarrar (a substantial upgrade of the Chinese T-59), which could be acquired in far greater numbers. For Pakistan, the quantitative aspect is important: Firstly, Pakistan’s border with India spans nearly 3000km, and second, India itself has a numerically massive and technologically robust stable of tanks. A large number of tanks is necessary in order to scale that territory as well as manage against a numerically heavy enemy thrust.

With the above in mind it is certain that the Pakistan Army is not re-orienting itself towards a smaller number of NATO-standard tanks, which would be inappropriate relative to its geo-strategic realities. Instead, the Altay is being considered as a supplement to the al-Khalid series, which will continue its role in gradually (i.e. over the long-term) forming the mainstay of the Army’s tank forces.

The idea of a supplementary system came to the fore in 2015 when the “Haider” MBT requirement was revealed. At the time it seemed that the Chinese VT-4 would meet that requirement, but the Army rejected it. It is not clear if the Altay is being considered for the Haider program or as an entirely separate acquisition. In any case, the question of why another tank is being considered, especially an expensive platform such as the Altay, needs to be explored.

In general, Pakistan’s armoured forces in war would be oriented for either offensive (via strike corps) or defensive (via holding corps) formations. Precisely which of these aspects the Altay would fulfil is not known, but the Altay was designed to handle both roles. The payoff (in technology and performance) of the Altay over the al-Khalid must be substantial (relative to the added cost) in order for the Army to justify its addition to the Armoured Corps.

If added, the Altay could be deployed to locations where an offensive surge (or defensive resistance) is expected to be the strongest. High performance ratings in key parameters such as maintenance or serviceability on the field, durability against the natural elements, acclimation with the region’s environments, and battle performance (e.g. accuracy, agility and resilience against attacks) could make Altay regiments a particularly serious threat for the enemy.

However, cost will be the critical bottleneck. Given the expensive nature of the Altay platform the Army would likely have to pursue the program through incremental batch orders of 40-50 tanks, and the total Altay force within Pakistan would likely sit at around 300 tanks. In tandem with the actual tank Pakistan may also be interested in acquiring some of the Altay’s armour and self-protection technology for use on the al-Khalid, especially its future versions.

One particularly interesting example is the Aselsan Akkor active protection system, which is currently under development. The Akkor is being developed to protect the Altay MBT (as well as other armoured vehicles) from anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) threats. Its laser-warning receivers would alert the tank of an attempted laser-lock, which in turn could trigger smoke dispensers to thwart the lock (i.e. “soft-kill” capability). The Akkor could alsodirectly intercept incoming missiles (i.e. “hard-kill” capability) through the use of a “smart munition” which – after firing – calculates its distance relative to the approaching missile, and when close enough, detonates a high-explosive warhead against the missile.

It must be acknowledged that this prospect (if it is indeed one) is in its very early stages. Pakistan has been interested in big-ticket Turkish armaments before, such as the MILGEM corvette and the T-129 attack helicopter, but the reality of Pakistan’s financial woes ultimately put those ideas to rest. However, India’s induction of the Arjun Mk-2 as well as possibly the Russian Armata MBT, could lend significant momentum in favour of the Altay.

@Horus

Turkey is at the last stretch of the War for Reownership, which started in 1950. War for Deownership started in 1834 and peaked in 1938. Once this war is fully won, many more systems will be available at a more affordable cost InshaAllah!!

 

[Viper 94]

Tanks are obsolete in modern warfare
no matter how advance the tank they are sitting duck against ground attack aircraft and anti tank
guided missiles

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Turkey is at the last stretch of the War for Reownership, which started in 1950. War for Deownership started in 1834 and peaked in 1938. Once this war is fully won, many more systems will be available at a more affordable cost InshaAllah!!

Tanks are obsolete in modern warfare
no matter how advance the tank they are sitting duck against ground attack aircraft and anti tank
guided missiles

Then why the major armies are still investing on them? Counter measures are also available against ground attack aircrafts or choppers especially for formations having anti aircrafts missiles etc. In the case of Turkey, tanks have been being extensively employed in the fight against PKK.

 

[KN-1]

, tanks have been being extensively employed in the fight against PKK.

PKK posses anti tank missiles? btw i agree tanks help in insurgencies until ur opponent got hand on capable anti tank system..

 

[Blue Marlin]

T-80 is one of my fav tanks also, its the spearhead tank of 1st armoured division. Every Russian weapon that Pakistan gets come with transfer of tech problems. One of the reasons why Mi-17 plant isnt set up in Pakistan, i hope JF-17 gets a WS series engine in block III to get rid of RD-93.

There are two problems with K-2.

First its south korean who are heavily influenced by USA. for any US tech or parts in this tank, USA can cause embargo.
On a diplomatic level, SK may also listen to USA than Pakistan or Turkey. This makes thing very complicated. some tech korean, some Turkish, some chinese and final product is a pakistani tank customized to PA requirements.

Secondly, K2 uses a 120mm gun. PA uses 125mm smoothbore.

the t80/84 is not russian its ukrainian and they need money badly. and they have and independant tank industry (thanks to your t80 order that forced them to go independent)

the gun can be replaced it may require a major rework but ehh it has to be done. true south korea's sugar daddy may/will step in if need be. but one thing they need to understand is that if they say no than pakistan wont go to korea again and other countries will take note. sammy blocked an order for t-50 trainers to uzbekistan. that contract was worth $400, gone by just one word. no.

turkey is the best in terms of tech transfer, but i think buying some ttanks would be good as well. heck possibly to complement the t 80. it can be a heavy duty thruster or a mid stopper

to be honest pakistan can buy chinese tanks when ever they feel like it. its ridiculously easy

 

[Babur Han]

Turkey won't hesitate sharing technology but if Pakistan goes for Altay than it would be K2 version not Altay used by Turkey and 400 of these beasts in our Arsenal will be nightmare for India. As for AK 2 Pakistan should produce it exactly like Turkey has done with its Leopard Tank

From my Point of View it would not make Sense for PAK to go for Altay, the Tank is too expensive and 120 mm Gun and Ammunition will create a logistic Nightmare. For a K-2 like Variant of Altay, the Tank need to be redesigned and this also mean extra Cost. It will be more Inteligent that PAK go for an turkish made IFV like Tulpar which can support the MBT Fleet and use IIR Guidet F&F Mizrak - U Missiles with 8 km Range.

 

[Zarvan]

From my Point of View it would not make Sense for PAK to go for Altay, the Tank is too expensive and 120 mm Gun and Ammunition will create a logistic Nightmare. For a K-2 like Variant of Altay, the Tank need to be redesigned and this also mean extra Cost. It will be more Inteligent that PAK go for an turkish made IFV like Tulpar which can support the MBT Fleet and use IIR Guidet F&F Mizrak - U Missiles with 8 km Range.

Sir if we are interested in Tank than we would go for a Tank weather Altay or K2 or OPLOT M. As for IFV we would go for them to either Tupur or VN12

 

[cabatli_53]

Altay has scalable quickchange mantlet which allows it to be upgunned to 140mm cannon if threats evolve beyond 120mm cannon. I don't think 125mm cannon would be would be a issue.

That being said, Pakistan should continue to work on AK. No need for foreign tanks when you are more than capable of designing one.

@cabatli_53 notice tank on left side is tan colored Think we'll be seeing it rolling around in the arabian heat

Bro, The normal chassis of Altay looks more greenly in production phase but It seems new production is for Arabian deserts which is directly related with Saudi Arabian tank request I think.

but Bro, I have already been expecting some evolution on turret. Step by step, It looks more like original 3D design. When Front section is also curved and modified in accordance with Akkor radar + FCR, It will be a real monster...

 

[madmusti]

Turkish Firm To Produce Tank Engine

For Real does that Firm ever had made an Engine ? Really an Engine without foreign partnership ? Please don´t post something that is 2 Years old, i get those informations before then you ever could can get my friend.

You guys are funny if you all believe Tumosan has those capabilities to make an Product for a customer called "Turkish Armed Forces" neither all other Defence Industry Engine suppliers are only deliver Engines for Defence Products and don´t do it with their Tractor Facilities, those Company has not ever made one of their Engines on their own really and don´t wait for a suprise called like "Ferruccio Lamborghini" , stop this black ignorance Please !

 

[-------]

Bro, The normal chassis of Altay looks more greenly in production phase but It seems new production is for Arabian deserts which is directly related with Saudi Arabian tank request I think.

but Bro, I have already been expecting some evolution on turret. Step by step, It looks more like original 3D design. When Front section is also curved and modified in accordance with Akkor radar + FCR, It will be a real monster...

Yes bro! This may very well happen, Akkor radars need protection from small arms. So a curved add-on armor could be added to the front. The only downside I could see is the driver having difficulty entering and exiting through his hatch because of the added length to the turret and position of hatch.

On another note, I really like the sliding hatch above the loaders station

 

[Signalian]

As one might expect, the Altay is not going to come “cheap,” hence the reason why Pakistan’s interest in this tank is very intriguing. Traditionally, Pakistan has largely sought to acquire lower-cost and lighter-weight tanks such as the al-Khalid and al-Zarrar (a substantial upgrade of the Chinese T-59), which could be acquired in far greater numbers. For Pakistan, the quantitative aspect is important: Firstly, Pakistan’s border with India spans nearly 3000km, and second, India itself has a numerically massive and technologically robust stable of tanks. A large number of tanks is necessary in order to scale that territory as well as manage against a numerically heavy enemy thrust.

With the above in mind it is certain that the Pakistan Army is not re-orienting itself towards a smaller number of NATO-standard tanks, which would be inappropriate relative to its geo-strategic realities. Instead, the Altay is being considered as a supplement to the al-Khalid series, which will continue its role in gradually (i.e. over the long-term) forming the mainstay of the Army’s tank forces.

The idea of a supplementary system came to the fore in 2015 when the “Haider” MBT requirement was revealed. At the time it seemed that the Chinese VT-4 would meet that requirement, but the Army rejected it. It is not clear if the Altay is being considered for the Haider program or as an entirely separate acquisition. In any case, the question of why another tank is being considered, especially an expensive platform such as the Altay, needs to be explored.

In general, Pakistan’s armoured forces in war would be oriented for either offensive (via strike corps) or defensive (via holding corps) formations. Precisely which of these aspects the Altay would fulfil is not known, but the Altay was designed to handle both roles. The payoff (in technology and performance) of the Altay over the al-Khalid must be substantial (relative to the added cost) in order for the Army to justify its addition to the Armoured Corps.

If added, the Altay could be deployed to locations where an offensive surge (or defensive resistance) is expected to be the strongest. High performance ratings in key parameters such as maintenance or serviceability on the field, durability against the natural elements, acclimation with the region’s environments, and battle performance (e.g. accuracy, agility and resilience against attacks) could make Altay regiments a particularly serious threat for the enemy.

However, cost will be the critical bottleneck. Given the expensive nature of the Altay platform the Army would likely have to pursue the program through incremental batch orders of 40-50 tanks, and the total Altay force within Pakistan would likely sit at around 300 tanks. In tandem with the actual tank Pakistan may also be interested in acquiring some of the Altay’s armour and self-protection technology for use on the al-Khalid, especially its future versions.

One particularly interesting example is the Aselsan Akkor active protection system, which is currently under development. The Akkor is being developed to protect the Altay MBT (as well as other armoured vehicles) from anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) threats. Its laser-warning receivers would alert the tank of an attempted laser-lock, which in turn could trigger smoke dispensers to thwart the lock (i.e. “soft-kill” capability). The Akkor could alsodirectly intercept incoming missiles (i.e. “hard-kill” capability) through the use of a “smart munition” which – after firing – calculates its distance relative to the approaching missile, and when close enough, detonates a high-explosive warhead against the missile.

It must be acknowledged that this prospect (if it is indeed one) is in its very early stages. Pakistan has been interested in big-ticket Turkish armaments before, such as the MILGEM corvette and the T-129 attack helicopter, but the reality of Pakistan’s financial woes ultimately put those ideas to rest. However, India’s induction of the Arjun Mk-2 as well as possibly the Russian Armata MBT, could lend significant momentum in favour of the Altay.

Currently the supplementary role to AK MBT series is performed by T-80 UD followed by Al Zarrar and T-85 III. PA has slowly and gradually kept upgrading its tank fleet. Every type of MBT in PA inventory has some sort of upgrade which may increase its firepower through a higher bore gun, power pack through a higher HP engine or survival through sensors etc.

Pakistan faces different problems in its Armoured Forces and Altay may solve only 1 or 2 of them. AK may have a few similarities with Al Zarrar standard tanks while Al Zarrar being derived from T-59 shares minimal similarities with it after the upgrade of gun, sensors, engine etc. T-80 UD is a completely different tank from Chinese T-series tanks.

The "not cheap" cost factor mentioned above can be countered by manufacturing one type of successful tank just like M1 MBT series of USA, Leopard 2 MBT series of Germany etc and then continuously upgrading it. Pakistan has one such successful tank in the form of AK series for which AK-1 and AK-II versions are on the way. Instead of introducing a new tank like Altay MBT in PA, its cost effective to keep manufacturing and upgrading AK series of tanks.

Induction of Altay MBT will also introduce a 7th type of tank in Pakistan's arsenal which will not only become a logistic burden but it would need similar kind of top notch equipment with other arms to take full advantage of this MBT. This means a full compliment of mechanised infantry, self propelled artillery , self propelled air defence, engineering vehicles like ARV,AVLB etc.

Armoured Infantry Support:
The M1A1 tank has 1500 hp engine and its IFV/ICV support is M2 Bradley with 600 hp engine while the M-113 with 275 hp engine was given secondary roles as it could not keep up with M1A1. PA uses Al-Talha and M-113 series some of which are now upgraded with 330 hp engine which is still substantially less when they have to support advance of 1200 hp engined AK. This is where PA needs improvement so the debacle of 1st armoured Div (1965) is not repeated where tanks didnt wait for supporting infantry as it was too slow and 120 or so M-48's charged towards well prepared enemy positions with massive losses.

Coming to wheeled transport, the 1st Armoured Division had wheeled or lorried infantry in 1965 which didnt show up. The wheeled vehicle manoeuvring problem escalates when logistics trucks are loaded with troops and weaponry. This means in certain terrain, lorried infantry cannot keep up with tanks. For this reason Al-Qaswa based on M-113 was produced.

The VN-1 series of PLA APC speculated to be in service with PA has 440 hp engine, more than Al Talha and M-113.


Air Defence (AD) Support:
The SP AD regiments also use Al-talha armed with Anza where as Heavy Anti Tank assets also use Al-Talha with Green Arrow. The absence of SP AD elements in 1971 took a toll of a whole armoured brigade of PA by Indian Jets.
These assets need to keep up with modern MBT's in battlefield but they have 330 hp engines.

Regarding ARV:
This is one important area which can get neglected. PA uses M-88 A1 which is 750 hp engined Armoured Recovery Vehicle (ARV). When US Army shifted to M1A1 tanks, they started using M-88 A2 ARV which is 1050 hp engined to pull 57 and 63 Tons M1A1/2 tanks.
Its relatively easy for M-88 A1 to pull a 46-47 Ton AK series tank but PA will require new ARV to recover knocked out or damaged Altay tanks which are 65 Tons in weight..

Artillery Support:
PA uses M-109 A5 with upgraded 440 hp engines but these are only 265 in number although excellent in performance. The other prospective acquistion is SH-1 6X6 SP Gun which has a good firing range but its wheeled. PA has shown interest in wheeled Nora B-52 SP gun also.The T-155 made and used by turkey could be a worthwhile addition as a modern SP howitzer considering Pakistan exports and produced Panter 155mm gun from Turkey.

Coming back to Altay, the modern systems of Altay like Akkor APS, upgraded FCS and 1500 hp engine could be acquired for newer AK versions instead of buying the MBT which will need new simulation for driver training as well as operating 120mm gun which will require newer type of ammo, training and other logistics in war. Currently, India faces the same scenario with Arjun and T-90/T-72.
PA tanks either use 125mm gun or L-7 105mm gun in its current MBT's.

An un-accounted factor is the reserve armoured forces in PA inventory, which seem to be around 300 M-48A5 and around 50 T-55 tanks. The Indian Army has around 1500+ Vijayanta and 200 T-55 MBT's in reserve. This means not only PA is short of modern MBT in current inventory of tanks but also lacks in reserve to replace losses in combat. Therefore a "cheaper" way to produce more modern tanks for PA is to keep upgrading AK series rather than getting a new platform like Altay.