An Israeli Shell in an Indian Tank

[Desert Fox]

Leaving aside VARTA for the moment, in order to confuse one issue at a time,

You have to take all of these defensive factors into consideration because in a real combat scenario VARTA or any active protection suit can't be "left aside".

will smoke grenades also be effective against indirect target acquisition from a flanking position?

But then that comes down to if the enemy would leave their flanks exposed. In a modern scenario a Tank is equipped with laser detectors, not to mention there is more than one Tank operating together along with mechanized infantry.

A individual tank with its flanks exposed will be an easy target, but if there are tanks in groups of lets say 5 or 6, they can easily employ defensive measures to evade incoming missiles using smoke launchers while leaving their rear open for falling back, but at the same time their laser detectors can pinpoint to them the locations of the laser designators allowing them to prepare themselves in a much better defense while engaging the enemy or calling in artillery strikes on the enemy positions.

Are we assuming that the smoke will totally obscure the target? How large is it likely to be? Will that smoke cloud not itself be a target?

Yes, the smoke will obscure the Target, the smoke cloud will be a target but its just a smoke cloud when there's no Tank in it.

What about navigation in smoke-filled conditions? Do we assume that all we have to do to make an armoured brigade go up in smoke is to ping a few tanks with laser beams? And soon have a situation where its individual units are all totally disoriented? This sounds like a Keystone Cops scenario to me.

We are talking with regards to what it says in the article about the LAHAT missile's target acquisition through laser designation, whether or not if it has another means through which the target can be acquired, its not mention in the article therefore i'm only discussing what it says in the article.

 

[Desert Fox]

Do Pakistani tanks (the most likely target, given the conditions of warfare on the northern borders of India) have such a system to detect enemy target acquisition? I do not recall this feature in the existing literature that I have read, and would like to know if anyone can throw light on this question.

"An advanced laser detection system from Al Technique Corporation (ATCOP) is present, the ATCOP LTS 1 laser threat warning system developed by Institute of Industrial Control Systems. LTS 1 consists of a mast-mounted sensor and operator's control box, which includes a display showing threats 360 degrees around the tank. It can detect laser rangefinders and laser target designators as well as respond automatically by triggering acoustic alarms, smoke generators and other countermeasure systems. LTS 1 can detect laser devices operating in the 0.8 to 1.06 µm waveband, has a 360° field of view in azimuth (resolution of 15°) and a field of view in elevation of -15° to +90°"

Al-Khalid tank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



LASER THREAT SENSOR (LTS786P)

"Laser Threat sensor LTS786P is an early warning device which gives audio and visual alarms of threat by sensing a laser beam aimed at it from any direction. The exact location of the threat (in-coming beam) is indicated by nine LEDs, covering all directions above horizon. It has the capability to differentiate between a laser Range Finder, Laser Target Designator or a Laser Target Tracker Signal. In addition, provision of sensor output signal, interfacing for appropriate counter-measures, is also available. It can be used on stationary or moving objects of any size or shape."

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS:





Response: Enhanced for Nd:YAG Laser Signal



Range: >10,000 m



Field of view: Capable of detecting any signal

aimed towards LTS786P



Detector type: Silicon Photodiode

Size (approx): 214 x 134 mm (sensor Head)

126 x 123 x 100 mm (Display Unit)



Weight 2 kg (sensor Head)

(Approx): 1 kg (Display Unit)
For More Details Please

::GLOBAL INDUSTRIAL AND DEFENCE SOLUTIONS ::

 

[Desert Fox]

If it does have such a similar system, how will it respond? Presumably with smoke grenades; presumably responding with gunfire at 8 kms range may not be a good idea. So it boils down to detecting the enemy armed with LAHAT first, and taking defensive action first.

In a indo-pak war scenario, Pakistanis front line tanks are equipped with Laser detectors and Active Protection Suits.

Al-Khalid I's, Al-Khalids, Al-Zarrars, and T-80's are all equipped with VARTA Active Protection Suits as well as laser detectors since they are our front line Tanks.

Al-Khalid equipped with VARTA APS:

Protection

Al-Khalid has modular composite armour and explosive reactive armour, nuclear-biological-chemical defences, an effective thermal smoke generator, internal fire extinguisher and explosion-suppression system. The infra-red signature of the tank is reduced by infra-red reflective paint.[3] Al-Khalid 1 is equipped with a newly developed indigenous ERA which is not only light weight, but also more resistant to APFSDS, HEAT and HE-FS rounds. ERA is developed by Global Industries and Defense Solutions (GIDS) Corporation.[27] Al-Khalid is also equipped with an Active protection system known as VARTA (guards). HIT is also working on an indigenous APS system for future batches especially for Al-Khalid 2.

An advanced laser detection system from Al Technique Corporation (ATCOP) is present, the ATCOP LTS 1 laser threat warning system developed by Institute of Industrial Control Systems. LTS 1 consists of a mast-mounted sensor and operator's control box, which includes a display showing threats 360 degrees around the tank. It can detect laser rangefinders and laser target designators as well as respond automatically by triggering acoustic alarms, smoke generators and other countermeasure systems. LTS 1 can detect laser devices operating in the 0.8 to 1.06 µm waveband, has a 360° field of view in azimuth (resolution of 15°) and a field of view in elevation of -15° to +90°. Operating voltage is 12 V or 24 V DC nominal with power consumption being 8 W nominal. The sensor head is 165 mm in diameter and 35 mm high while the control box is 80 x 130 x 55 mm in size. Laser Threat Sensor LTS786P is an early warning device which gives audio and visual alarms of threat by sensing a laser beam aimed at it from any direction. The exact location of the threat (in-coming beam) is indicated by nine LEDs, covering all directions above horizon. It has the capability to differentiate between a Laser Range Finder, Laser Target Designator or a Laser Target Tracker Signal. In addition, provision of sensor output signal, interfacing for appropriate counter-measures, is also available. It can be used on stationary or moving objects of any size or shape. Maximum operating Range is 10 km.[28]

 

[500]

You have to take all of these defensive factors into consideration because in a real combat scenario VARTA or any active protection suit can't be "left aside".

These countermesures failed miserably during trials in India, thats why Indian tanks are not equipped with them.

I dont siggest to turn on these things. They unmask the tank. Turnung them is like running with flashlight at night.

Don't worry silko he only trying to act superior simply because Ptex is an Isreali, just like Nazi were acting superior to the world and killing others who they thought inferior.

A real Nazi is one who generalizes 7 million people.

 

[Desert Fox]

These countermesures failed miserably during trials in India, thats why Indian tanks are not equipped with them.

And you think Pakistan Army hasn't tested its systems before equipping its front line Tanks?

I dont siggest to turn on these things. They unmask the tank. Turnung them is like running with flashlight at night.

Maybe you should be the adviser to Pakistani generals and high command, and to the Generals of all of those other armed forces of different countries who have also equipped their tanks with Active Protection Suits.

I guess their too stupid to not allow a armchair warrior decide their weapons purchases for them.

Turnung them is like running with flashlight at night.

Your analogy is completely wrong.

 

[ARSENAL6]

A real Nazi is one who generalizes 7 million people.

Yeah like calling Palestinian as terrorists Well done
.....oh wait there are not 7 million of them because Israel has exterminated most of the population just like how NAzi did to the jews. See the connection 500.
No need to pretend to be on topic, when you wanted to reply and spread you propaganda junk over the internet.

Beside since when does calling one Nazi equates to 7 million people as Nazi ? you made thats assuption not me . but thanks it just proves what you are.

Pakistani countermeasures fails ? ....nice comedy.

 

[Hack-Hook]

well this supposedly shell is in fact a missile like any other Anti tank missile that largely used around the world , now there are two sort of guidance with laser , one is beam-rider missiles that can't be jammed but they are very hard to control and are not suitable for long range and I highly doubt this is such missile , the other group are the model that they paint target with laser and the missile locate the laser reflection on the target and go toward it ,this model are suitable for long range missile but can be jammed and honestly it's not a future technology this technology belong too cold war era and there are very effective counter measure against it . it all come back to the question if the tank have the equipment to detect that being painted with a laser device or no


and a smoke scree is very effective against laser designator because particles in the air are very effective in breaking the light beams which laser is part of it and don't forget it's not a matter of painting the tank behind that smoke screen the problem is detecting the laser reflection , if you cant have a laser reflected back then detector at the front of the missile can't pick any target to lock on.

 

[Desert Fox]

well this supposedly shell is in fact a missile like any other Anti tank missile that largely used around the world , now there are two sort of guidance with laser , one is beam-rider missiles that can't be jammed but they are very hard to control and are not suitable for long range and I highly doubt this is such missile , the other group are the model that they paint target with laser and the missile locate the laser reflection on the target and go toward it ,this model are suitable for long range missile but can be jammed and honestly it's not a future technology this technology belong too cold war era and there are very effective counter measure against it . it all come back to the question if the tank have the equipment to detect that being painted with a laser device or no


and a smoke scree is very effective against laser designator because particles in the air are very effective in breaking the light beams which laser is part of it and don't forget it's not a matter of painting the tank behind that smoke screen the problem is detecting the laser reflection , if you cant have a laser reflected back then detector at the front of the missile can't pick any target to lock on.

Good point, i just couldn't put it into words when i was replying to Joe Shearer, so you put it into right words.


BTW, Pakistan also has two types of ATGM that can be launched through Tanks gun (most likely Al-Khalid), the first is the AT-11 Sniper, which is Russian origin, the second is the Ukrainian KOMBAT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RKnJSOgksw

The KOMBAT's charge is much more powerful and unlike contemporary ATGM's, the KOMBAT's laser designator is not pointed at the target, rather its pointed at the Tail of the missile until the Missile hits the targeted Tank.

 

[500]

Maybe you should be the adviser to Pakistani generals and high command, and to the Generals of all of those other armed forces of different countries who have also equipped their tanks with Active Protection Suits.

The overwhelming majority of Al Khalids dont have these system:

Other 2500+ Pakistani tanks dont have them either. India, the major user of T-90 tanks, rejected this system:

Algeria too:

The newest Russian T-90MS model also does not have it:

So who else remained in the world?

I guess their too stupid to not allow a armchair warrior decide their weapons purchases for them.

I served in armor forces.

Your analogy is completely wrong.

Its completelly right.

Yeah like calling Palestinian as terrorists Well done

If someone calls all Palestinians terrorists he is a Nazi just like you.

.....oh wait there are not 7 million of them because Israel has exterminated most of the population just like how NAzi did to the jews.

Its your brain cells who were exterminated. Since the beginning of Zionism the Arab population of Palestine grew more than 12 times. Palestinians are one of the fastest growing nation in the world.

 

[Manticore]

PLEASE guys , no more offtopic stuff!

The info available on ak is less and instead of asking for tidbits , kindly go through this thread
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...type-90-iim-mbt-2000-information-pool-11.html

 

[mnd]

LAHAT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LAHAT is not proper anti-tank munition for several reasons:
- It's warhead is weaker as compared to tank munitions, requiring 2-3 missiles to neutralise a modern tank.
- It's guidance method, also is not suitable for tank warfare. It has a semi-active laser seeker, which is easy to be disrupted by countermeasures, and requiring a laser to be pointed at the target, in other words, allerting the tank from a big distance and calling for countermeasures.

Because of these reasons, it cannot be considered as anti-tank munition in the same league as rest of weapons, missiles, AFPSDS, it is really an expensive multi-purpose missile with limited capabilities, requiring modifications in fire control system to be used, hence nobody wanted it.

 

[mnd]

In a indo-pak war scenario, Pakistanis front line tanks are equipped with Laser detectors and Active Protection Suits.

Al-Khalid I's, Al-Khalids, Al-Zarrars, and T-80's are all equipped with VARTA Active Protection Suits as well as laser detectors since they are our front line Tanks.

Al-Khalid equipped with VARTA APS:

These are only part of the APS system, they affect flare collimators, disrupting guidance of missiles like TOW, etc. They have nothing to do with laser-guided missiles which are detected by laser warning sensors, and disrupted by automatic action of aerosol cloud.

The overwhelming majority of Al Khalids dont have these system:

Other 2500+ Pakistani tanks dont have them either. India, the major user of T-90 tanks, rejected this system:

Algeria too:

The newest Russian T-90MS model also does not have it:

So who else remained in the world?

You are confusing the whole system with the projectors, which are only part of it, and those projectors have nothing to do against laser-guidance, but the rest of the system.

 

[Joe Shearer]

And you think Pakistan Army hasn't tested its systems before equipping its front line Tanks?



Maybe you should be the adviser to Pakistani generals and high command, and to the Generals of all of those other armed forces of different countries who have also equipped their tanks with Active Protection Suits.

I guess their too stupid to not allow a armchair warrior decide their weapons purchases for them.



Your analogy is completely wrong.

Yeah like calling Palestinian as terrorists Well done
.....oh wait there are not 7 million of them because Israel has exterminated most of the population just like how NAzi did to the jews. See the connection 500.
No need to pretend to be on topic, when you wanted to reply and spread you propaganda junk over the internet.

Beside since when does calling one Nazi equates to 7 million people as Nazi ? you made thats assuption not me . but thanks it just proves what you are.

Pakistani countermeasures fails ? ....nice comedy.

It would be nice if we could stay with the technical content and give the personalities a miss.

 

[Abingdonboy]

This smoke issue is BS, the Arjun (even Mk.1) comes with advanced Thermal sights for both the commander and gunner, they can see the target through the smoke, guide the laser onto it and launch the LAHAT-easy!



+ btw there is a reson the IA mech forces don't use the VATRA APS, in Indian conditions/trails the system failed abysmally, managing to intercept 2/15 targets. This is why the IA uses the far more advanced Iron Fist APS.

 

[500]

LAHAT is not proper anti-tank munition for several reasons:
- It's warhead is weaker as compared to tank munitions, requiring 2-3 missiles to neutralise a modern tank.

Its the opposite. LAHAT has top attack mode, so it has much more probability to kill than any other tank launched missile.

- It's guidance method, also is not suitable for tank warfare. It has a semi-active laser seeker, which is easy to be disrupted by countermeasures, and requiring a laser to be pointed at the target, in other words, allerting the tank from a big distance and calling for countermeasures.

Again its the opposite. Its guidance method allows firing from greater ranges and from enclosed positions.

As for alerting, modern laser warning sensors detect beam rider as well:

http://www.elbitsystems-us.com/sites/default/files/LWS.pdf

You are confusing the whole system with the projectors, which are only part of it, and those projectors have nothing to do against laser-guidance, but the rest of the system.

Both parts failed in Indian trials, Pakistani tanks also dont have neither of them (expect that one on excibition ).