An Israeli Shell in an Indian Tank

[desiman]

So by your logic, just point laser into smoke and hope it hits the Tank, right?


A smoke grenade is supposed to act like a cover for the Tank, not obscure the laser. How can you point a laser at a Tank if you can't spot its exact position under the cover of dense smoke?

If the tank does not have advanced detection systems then it wont even know if a missile is coming its way let alone fire a smoke grenade, and even if it does fire one, the chance of deflection are below 25%, look up what happened to Iraqi tanks in both gulf wars. Please do some research before you make claims.

 

[500]

Advantages of Refleks/Invar:
- More powerfull warhead, >50% of success to neutralise modern tank from front, Lahat, weaker 700mm, 2 or 3 against frontal engagement are needed.

700 mm is more than enough vs old tanks, tank sides and weakened zones. Lofted trajectory of Lahat allows penetration of front side of modern tanks. Refleks on the other hand is not enough vs. front of modern tanlks.

Lahat and Refleks, have same loafted trajectory:

No they dont. I already posted you a pic. Lahat has TWO MODES: regular and lofted.

Lahat will only warn the tank from 5km with it's laser designator, Refleks as shown, irradiates nothing until last second.

No warning comes much earlier. And you can do same exact trick with laser homing: you can direct a beam near tank during missile flight and move to a tank itself right before impact. There is no any difference here.

You know problems associated with work under 50 degrees in desert ? Otherwise you provide nothing here.

1/70000 of power wont make any difference anywhere. Find beter excuses to failure.

It shows comparison, of AFPSDS and missile. Probability of neutralistation reflected in graphic, depends on probability of hit, and probability of armour perforation. It is you who does not understand, that AFPSDS looses effectiveness at more than 2km due to loss of velocity, and acurracy due to dispersion, so I showed you a graphic.

It shows BS. How can be 50% probability from point blank range? How it can be zero from 3.5 km when my own tank hit targets at 4 km? This chart is a joke drawn by some internet kid.

Shtora originally, reacts only to wavelenght range between 0.7-2.5 micrometres, some modern range finders, operate in shorter, until 0.63 micrometres, or longer, up to 10,6 micrometres wavelenght. But Pakistan uses Varta system:

Are you trying to say that Ukrainian copy is better than Russian oiriginal?

3- Many have them, or atleast laser warning device. BTW, they use Varta, not Shtora.

Okey, show pics. So far we seen only one exhibistion tank.

 

[Waffen SS]

Well our great Zaid (read ZION) Hamid will rephrase it as:

"A Zionist Shell in a Hindu Tank."

 

[Tshering22]

That's a great development. But wasn't there a news report flying around stating that Nag will have an anti-tank version also capable of firing from tank barrel? What happened to that?

 

[mnd]

700 mm is more than enough vs old tanks, tank sides and weakened zones. Lofted trajectory of Lahat allows penetration of front side of modern tanks. Refleks on the other hand is not enough vs. front of modern tanlks.

Figures for Refleks/Invar were provided, probability of neutralisation of most modern tanks, >50%, from front. 1-2 missiles max to neutralise most modern tank, from 5 km. This is effectiveness.

Lahat, only good against old tanks with weaker armour and or no warning systems.

No they dont. I already posted you a pic. Lahat has TWO MODES: regular and lofted.

Exactly the same modes are in Refleks, direct, lofted. I showed several pics.

No warning comes much earlier. And you can do same exact trick with laser homing: you can direct a beam near tank during missile flight and move to a tank itself right before impact. There is no any difference here.

What are you saying is funny as you understand little about guidance working method. Lahat needs target to be designated by laser, and missile hits in designated point, that is all. Yeah, you could attempt many silly tricks, try to do so at 4-5km, and rapidly shift in the last 0.1 seconds ... Complete nosense.

You cannot "play" manually. In missiles as Refleks it is done automatically with special algorithm, defining flight path to target, depending on range.

Also to note, that modern russian atgm, and fire control systems in tanks, can also track target automatically, another advantage.

1/70000 of power wont make any difference anywhere. Find beter excuses to failure.

Systems can malfunction due to many external factors. I provided example, of operation under extreme temperatures and how it creates malfunctions in engine, also in thermal cameras, etc. That is not related to efficiency of those systems themselves. India did not aquire the system, they have they reasons, and I brought examples of what they can be, there are many factors. The system is operated by many countries, so your argument has not any base, nor you have proofs.

You who make claims without any base, so it is not up to me, to answer, that would be arguing against nothing.

It shows BS. How can be 50% probability from point blank range? How it can be zero from 3.5 km when my own tank hit targets at 4 km? This chart is a joke drawn by some internet kid.

It is that you do not understand the subject, therefore you cannot interpret correctly the graphic (These figures are from KBP, btw)

I will explain:
It is comparison of APFSDS projectile, and missile, to neutralise tank at several ranges.
APFSDS in this example is less powerfull than missile, so it has less probabilities from the start, but that is not relevant here.

Probability to neutralise tank reflected in graphic, is given by probability of hit, and probability of penetrate once hit.

Penetration of missile remains constant, does not change with range, probability of hit is high because it is guided, so there is no significant reduction in performance even at 5km/

APFSDS round, looses velocity continously (loss in penetration) and probability of hit, accuracy, is also seriously reduced, so from 2-2.5 km it is not effective at all, if dealing against modern tank armour.

For you to know, some tanks as Abrams do not even measure distance, beyond 4km. Hitting a building, or enemy position with fragmentary munition, maybe, but if you want to penetrate tank armour, moving target, do not even try beyond 2-2.5 km, because of loss of penetration capability alone, not to mention accuracy...

Are you trying to say that Ukrainian copy is better than Russian oiriginal?

Shtora is originally from the 80s. It was modernised both by russians and by ukrainians. I focused on ukrainian example, as we were talking about Pakistan.

Okey, show pics. So far we seen only one exhibistion tank.

Lahat is used by none, not deployed, so no argument here. If you talk about it's hypotetical fielding, then you must also take in account rest of deployed/to be deployed systems, factor which you do not consider.

They certainly operate them in some numbers, anyway, as said, there is nothing to discuss.

 

[500]

Figures for Refleks/Invar were provided, probability of neutralisation of most modern tanks, >50%, from front. 1-2 missiles max to neutralise most modern tank, from 5 km. This is effectiveness.

Your chart is joke. Lahat has advantage both in range and in penetratiuon thanks to lofted trajectory.

Exactly the same modes are in Refleks, direct, lofted. I showed several pics.

No, refleks does not have any lofted mode.

What are you saying is funny as you understand little about guidance working method. Lahat needs target to be designated by laser, and missile hits in designated point, that is all. Yeah, you could attempt many silly tricks, try to do so at 4-5km, and rapidly shift in the last 0.1 seconds ... Complete nosense.

Not 0.1 seconds, several seconds. Beam ride does exactly the same.

Also to note, that modern russian atgm, and fire control systems in tanks, can also track target automatically, another advantage.

Its about autotrack in tanks FCS.

Systems can malfunction due to many external factors. I provided example, of operation under extreme temperatures and how it creates malfunctions in engine, also in thermal cameras, etc. That is not related to efficiency of those systems themselves. India did not aquire the system, they have they reasons, and I brought examples of what they can be, there are many factors. The system is operated by many countries, so your argument has not any base, nor you have proofs.

So Shtora does not work in high temperatures? OK then what we argue about?

You who make claims without any base, so it is not up to me, to answer, that would be arguing against nothing.

I did provide, you provided only silly chart which is obviously BS.

I will explain:
It is comparison of APFSDS projectile, and missile, to neutralise tank at several ranges.
APFSDS in this example is less powerfull than missile, so it has less probabilities from the start, but that is not relevant here.

OK, so you have junk rounds which cant penetrate from piont blank. But what about the gunner? He cant hit a weakenes zone from point blank range either?

What about 3.5 km? why ziroo? That chart is pure nonsense.

Lahat is used by none, not deployed, so no argument here. If you talk about it's hypotetical fielding, then you must also take in account rest of deployed/to be deployed systems, factor which you do not consider.

So u made a claim which is not true. Thansk for admitting.

 

[mnd]

Your chart is joke. Lahat has advantage both in range and in penetratiuon thanks to lofted trajectory.

Your lofted trajectory mode, gives only incidence of missile of 30 degrees , it is the same for Refleks trajectory. Lahat warhead is simply not enought against modern armour. Not to mention countermeasures resistance, or target alert from 5km by laser designator...

No, refleks does not have any lofted mode.

No, this is direct trajectory

It also hits from angle as Lahat, so no difference. Only that Lahat is much weaker missile, and uses more vulnerable guidance method.

Not 0.1 seconds, several seconds. Beam ride does exactly the same.

Your "argument" is a joke Beam ride due to missile trajectory, irradiates on target only at last 0.1-0.2 seconds. Lahat, countinously pointed on target 100 more powerfull laser designator.

Its about autotrack in tanks FCS.

If Lahat worked in automatic mode, it would discard your fantasy, of playing with laser designator, which is ridicolous anyway.

So Shtora does not work in high temperatures? OK then what we argue about?

If thermal camera malfunctiones due to extreme temperature, does it mean, it has bad definition when operating normally ? Nosense. This is your logic. I explained, that there are many factors, which can or cannot be related to the system itself. You have not any arguments or logical base, or proofs.

Let's go to the point of the subject.Lahat's laser designator's wavelenght, falls within Shtora's sensivity range, so it will react and disrupt it's guidance, so discussion of system efficiency, is closed.

I did provide, you provided only silly chart which is obviously BS.

Not BS, it is that you do not understand it. Do you want to bring your own figures and calculations ?

OK, so you have junk rounds which cant penetrate from piont blank. But what about the gunner? He cant hit a weakenes zone from point blank range either?

You still not understood. Chart does not reflect accuracy, it reflects neutralisation probability, in function of both accuracy and penetration.

For example, you can have 90% probability to hit from a close distance, but projectile, 60% to penetrate armour, then probability of neutralisation, will be no more than 60%.

From 2-2.5km, loss of velocity of APFSDS projectile, loss of penetration power will be so significant, that it will make it unable to penetrate modern tank armour. So there is such a drastic difference, also exacerbated with loss of accuracy, dispersion. Missile penetration power, does not varies with range. And it is much more accurate.

What about 3.5 km? why ziroo? That chart is pure nonsense

.
Zero, because regardless if you hit, projectile suffered serious loss of velocity, and simply wil not penetrate armour.

So u made a claim which is not true. Thansk for admitting.

I did not said that they do not operate them. They surely do. Anyway, that is not the point. Since Lahat is not deployed anywere, your discussion is purely hipotetical. You talk about "what if" Lahat will deployed, while ignoring on purpose rest of deployed/to be deployed systems, which can make it hypotetically useless.

I do not need to prove nothing, as Lahat is not deployed. Now if you talk about if it would be, then you must to take in account all factors, and not manipulate.

 

[500]

Your lofted trajectory mode, gives only incidence of missile of 30 degrees ,

Its more but even 30 grad is enough to give 2 times advantage and penetrate any tank with ease.

it is the same for Refleks trajectory.

No its not. Reflex has only direct attack mode and thus cant penetrate the frontal armor of modern tanks.

Beam ride due to missile trajectory, irradiates on target only at last 0.1-0.2 seconds.

No itysdoes not. Modern sensors can detect beam ride. I provided source.

If thermal camera malfunctiones due to extreme temperature, does it mean, it has bad definition when operating normally ? Nosense. This is your logic. I explained, that there are many factors, which can or cannot be related to the system itself. You have not any arguments or logical base, or proofs.

I provided proof that Shtora failed in Greek trials. Anothger fact is that India, the biggest T-90 user in the world rejected Shtora. Your argument that thats because of 10 Wt (not kwt!!!) consumption is nothing but sad joke.

Not BS, it is that you do not understand it. Do you want to bring your own figures and calculations ?

From point blank range its obviously 100%. From 3.5 km its around 10% from first round and 50% from second (firing at 4 km is standard excercise in IDF).

Zero, because regardless if you hit, projectile suffered serious loss of velocity, and simply wil not penetrate armour.

You dont know that tanks have sides and rear? That tanks have weakened zones in front? Why you ever post here if you dont know these basic things?

I do not need to prove nothing

You claimed that many Pakistani tanks have Varta. But now you try to switch the topic.

 

[Desert Fox]

If the tank does not have advanced detection systems then it wont even know if a missile is coming its way let alone fire a smoke grenade, and even if it does fire one, the chance of deflection are below 25%,

And if a Tank does have advanced laser detection systems and therefore detects the laser designator as soon as it is aimed towards the Tank, therefore triggering countermeasures and disrupting laser designator?

look up what happened to Iraqi tanks in both gulf wars.

I'm Talking in context of indo-Pakistani scenario, not Iraq or USA. india is not USA and neither is Pakistan Iraq.

Please do some research before you make claims.

I know very well what i'm talking about.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I see, Pakistan has bought KOMBAT ATGM's from Ukraine, presumably to be used through the main gun of Pakistani MBT's like the T-80UD we imported from Ukraine as well as our Al-Khalids.



"Armament

Al-Khalid is designed with a 125 mm (length: 48 calibers) smoothbore, auto-frettaged and chrome-plated gun barrel which can fire the following types of conventional ammunition: APFSDS, HEAT-FS and HE-FS. Despite a common belief that the gun is Chinese, it was later changed to a modified variant of KBA-3 series of 125 mm smooth bore gun for Al-khalid mbt which provided compatibility with Ukrainian ATGMs such as Kombat. Gun-launched, laser-guided anti-tank guided missiles can also be launched and two types are believed to be in use on the Al-Khalid, the Russian-designed 9M119 Refleks (AT-11 Sniper) produced in China under licence and the Ukrainian-designed Kombat,[18] which may have been modified in Pakistan to incorporate a larger warhead.[19]"

Al-Khalid tank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kombat - 125mm AT Missile - YouTube

Alkahlid actually used a french tank gun not chinese or ukrainian... but now even tht has been replaced by an indigenous gun... also the wiki article fails to mention the indigenous DU round "NAIZA"...

Pakistan's first locally-produced tank gun is ready to be fitted for its Main Battle Tanks (MBT), a media report said.

Dawn Monday said that the tank gun is ready to be delivered to the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) for Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar tanks. A tank gun is the main armament of a tank.

HIT used to earlier procure 125 millimetre 'blanks' from France for the army's two main battle tanks. Blanks are the final shape of the gun barrel before it is finished. It was then fitted into the tank at HIT.

While Al-Khalid - a joint venture between Pakistan and China - has been with the army since 2001, Al-Zarar is an upgraded T-59 tank.

The country's first blank was produced at the Heavy Mechanical Complex (HMC) in Taxila.

Dawn quoted an official as saying the army had given a go-ahead for the production of 50 125 mm barrels for the two MBTs.

A specialised weapons grade steel was used to manufacture the tank gun. A block of metal is pressed to become a five-metre-long square bar that is forged into a smooth bore 125 mm barrel.

The HIT has finalised a deal for 200 million for the 50 barrels, which is slightly less than the cost of each barrel bought from France.

The official said that after delivering 50 tank guns, the HMC plans to produce artillery guns for the Pakistan Army.

 

[mnd]

Its more but even 30 grad is enough to give 2 times advantage and penetrate any tank with ease.

Angle of incidence of 30 grad will give you nothing. If laser is designated at turret front, missile will hit turret front, just with 30 grad hit angle, if pointed at side, side with 30 grad hit angle, nowhere near 2 times advantage, rather none. More is achieved, only if you are in elevated poistion . It is just advertisement.

No its not. Reflex has only direct attack mode and thus cant penetrate the frontal armor of modern tanks.

Refleks guidance system, you can choose several firing modes, direct, or lofted to avoid obstacles, APS, etc (I showed you). With lofted trajectory missile will probably hit from an angle, only difference, is that they do not use this as cheap advertising method.

Besides, Refleks in direct engagement of frontal armour of modern tank (M1A2) has 50% probability to neutralise it, from 5km (1-2 missiles). Missile like Lahat, direct or 30 grad (irrelevant) 2-3 are needed, that is, if there are no countermeasures.

No itysdoes not. Modern sensors can detect beam ride. I provided source.

I will not engage in discussion, wheter they can or cannot detect it, as it is not relevant if they are only irradiated in last 0.1-0.2 seconds. If you still do not understand guidance method, watch the material I provided.

I provided proof that Shtora failed in Greek trials. Anothger fact is that India, the biggest T-90 user in the world rejected Shtora. Your argument that thats because of 10 Wt (not kwt!!!) consumption is nothing but sad joke.

Wheter Shtora failed in Greek trials, against different rangefinders, is irrelevant to discussed subject, as Lahat laser designator operates in wavelenght, whithin sensivity range of Shtora.

I did not said, that they had great power consumption. I only provided example, of how malfunctions can appear due to different factors, not related to system by itself. And your point is nothing.

Back to discussion, Lahat is useless against tank with Shtora, case closed, rest, is not related to subject

From point blank range its obviously 100%. From 3.5 km its around 10% from first round and 50% from second (firing at 4 km is standard excercise in IDF).

Assuming you are talking not about penetration probability alone, but in function of accuracy as in graphic, then there is not necessarily a contradiction (though you say nothing about projectile penetration, armour, no figures so what to compare?).

In graphic I showed, from point blank, projectile has 100% probability to hit, 50% to penetrate armour, therefore, probability to penetrate target, is 50%.

You dont know that tanks have sides and rear? That tanks have weakened zones in front? Why you ever post here if you dont know these basic things?

Graphic I showed, it is frontal engagement. Target is M1A1 tank. Weak zones are taken in account in penetration probability figure.

You claimed that many Pakistani tanks have Varta. But now you try to switch the topic.

I do not negate it, it is just, I do not care, because given that Lahat is deployed nowhere, there is no point of discussion

 

[500]

Angle of incidence of 30 grad will give you nothing.

Obviously you missed trigonometry lessons at ur school.

cos68=0.375 cos(68-30)=0.788 788/0.375=2.1

If T-80U glacis has 1100 mm protection vs HEAT, then Reflecs will fail to take it.

However, Lahat attacking at 30 slop will have to pass 2.1 times less - only 520 mm. Lahat will take it with ease. In case of Al Khalid difference will be even bigger.

Refleks guidance system, you can choose several firing modes, direct, or lofted to avoid obstacles, APS, etc (I showed you). With lofted trajectory missile will probably hit from an angle, only difference, is that they do not use this as cheap advertising method.

OK. You dont have any clue how Refleks works. To avoid obstacles Refleks is simply flying horizontally at higher altitude and then several hundred meters before the target it goes lower. It still attacks target horizontally. There is no any lofted trajectory there.

I will not engage in discussion, wheter they can or cannot detect it, as it is not relevant if they are only irradiated in last 0.1-0.2 seconds. If you still do not understand guidance method, watch the material I provided.

You provided absoluitelly nothing.

Wheter Shtora failed in Greek trials, against different rangefinders, is irrelevant to discussed subject, as Lahat laser designator operates in wavelenght, whithin sensivity range of Shtora.

Lahat uses rangefinder wavelight.

I did not said, that they had great power consumption. I only provided example, of how malfunctions can appear due to different factors, not related to system by itself. And your point is nothing.

You provided joke argument that Shtora is rejected because of 10 Wt

Back to discussion, Lahat is useless against tank with Shtora, case closed, rest, is not related to subject

Only in your wet dreams.

In graphic I showed, from point blank, projectile has 100% probability to hit, 60% to penetrate armour, therefore, figure is 60%.

Even if u chosed junk rounds which cant penetrate tank even from point blank range, you still can hit the weakened zone.

Graphic I showed, it is frontal engagement. Target is M1A1 tank. Weak zones are taken in account in penetration probability figure.

So you are saing there is zero chance to his weakened zone or side from 3500 m? I guess my gunner bent space and time when hit targets at 4000 m.

 

[IND151]

This smoke issue is BS, the Arjun (even Mk.1) comes with advanced Thermal sights for both the commander and gunner, they can see the target through the smoke, guide the laser onto it and launch the LAHAT-easy!



+ btw there is a reson the IA mech forces don't use the VATRA APS, in Indian conditions/trails the system failed abysmally, managing to intercept 2/15 targets. This is why the IA uses the far more advanced Iron Fist APS.

link for your claim?

 

[mnd]

Obviously you missed trigonometry lessons at ur school.

cos68=0.375 cos(68-30)=0.788 788/0.375=2.1

If T-80U glacis has 1100 mm protection vs HEAT, then Reflecs will fail to take it.

However, Lahat attacking at 30 slop will have to pass 2.1 times less - only 520 mm. Lahat will take it with ease. In case of Al Khalid difference will be even bigger.

It is funny to see, how you make your "proffesional" school level estimations without understanding of the subject.

Your armour figures are not correct anyway. Against modern tank armour, hit angle of 30 gives nothing, and you are using ideal conditions, missile can hit in turret front, etc. Also such generalisation is not correct, as armour is not composed of just steel, but also with dynamic elements. Therefore your "estimations" have no value.

OK. You dont have any clue how Refleks works. To avoid obstacles Refleks is simply flying horizontally at higher altitude and then several hundred meters before the target it goes lower. It still attacks target horizontally. There is no any lofted trajectory there.

I provided pictures describing the firing mode. Before, you did not even understood basic working method, of laser beam guidance.

You provided absoluitelly nothing.

I provided pictures showing firing mode, trajectory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RKnJSOgksw

In this video, process is described in detail. If you ignore, and do not bother with provided material, then do not discuss with stupid arguments.

Lahat uses rangefinder wavelight.

Which operates in 1.06 micrometres wavelenght which falls in Shtora sensivity range, 0.7-2.5 micrometres.

You provided joke argument that Shtora is rejected because of 10 Wt

I did not even provided that figure. There are many factors, if you have no arguments, then I have nothing to say.

Only in your wet dreams.

Not mine, because I do not make up anything, all what I say, is from technical material, you discuss with nothing. I already provided figures. Prove otherwise, provide material from your part, or stop funny arguments.

Yes, Lahat is useless against tank with Shtora, from 6km it will only alert tank and be easily disrupted.

Even if u chosed junk rounds which cant penetrate tank even from point blank range, you still can hit the weakened zone.

You still do not understand, that is reflected in penetration probability (power of projectile, target armour having in account all frontal projectio) in function of accuracy.

You cannot contradict the graphic, figures, if you do not understand them.

So you are saing there is zero chance to his weakened zone or side from 3500 m? I guess my gunner bent space and time when hit targets at 4000 m.

I explained already, study the graphic and learn some basics.

 

[500]

Your armour figures are not correct anyway. Against modern tank armour, hit angle of 30 gives nothing

OK, so u cant understand even simple trigonometry. I am sorry. But those who understand know that it gives 2.1 advantage vs. 68 slopped glacis. Lahart has bigger impact angle but I wont argue.

and you are using ideal conditions,

No, I actually chosed bad condition: thick glacis. It can hit the turret roof or drivers hatch.

I provided pictures describing the firing mode. Before, you did not even understood basic working method, of laser beam guidance.

...

Target is only irradiated by beam at final phase, for only 0.1-0.2 seconds which is not enought to deploy countermeasures.

You are a typical example of guy who read couple articles in internet and thinks he knows everything. But you dont know even basics.

Just imagine what will happen if missile will late for these 0.2-0.1 sec. It wil fly over target. And it happen very easily: tank is moving towards tagret, there is wind, speed of combustion has changed. Also anti tank missile is not designed to make sharp maneuvering. Thats why in reality it goes down several seconds before the impact.

Which operates in 1.06 micrometres wavelenght which falls in Shtora sensivity range, 0.7-2.5 micrometres.

Shtota failed to detect Western laser rangefinders. Thats fact.

I did not even provided that figure. There are many factors, if you have no arguments, then I have nothing to say.

10 Wt is consumption of laser detector sensor.

Not mine, because I do not make up anything, all what I say, is from technical material, you discuss with nothing. I already provided figures. Prove otherwise, provide material from your part, or stop funny arguments.

You posted obviously stupid chart which claims that tanker cant hit weakenes zone from point blank range.

You still do not understand, that is reflected in penetration probability (power of projectile, target armour having in account all frontal projectio) in function of accuracy.

You still dont understand that tanks have weakened zones and sides. Zones i marked with red can be easily penetrated from 4 km: