American/Israeli & Indian lobby spreading fears about Pak nukes

[Sine Nomine]

Couldn't Agreed on more then that,As you know sir Taking our nukes is impossible by force because in last 15 years we have pretty spread them a lot but sanctions can work.
Last China has pushed Govt a lot and actually helped them to clear North,Situation built up in South China Sea has lot of effects on us.

Right now, they are on the offensive and they have the card to play. We dont.

Sir what are cards we can forge to play back.

 

[SQ8]

Couldn't Agreed on more then that,As you know sir Taking our nukes is impossible by force because in last 15 years we have pretty spread them a lot but sanctions can work.
Last China has pushed Govt a lot and actually helped them to clear North,Situation built up in South China Sea has lot of effects on us.

Sir what are cards we can forge to play back.

Lets say this. There is nothing impossible.

For years we thought that no power could undo Pakistan. A band of hateful men armed with hateful interpretations of the thing we hold the most dearest(our belief).. cut up our younger brothers, sons into pieces and we could not do a thing about it.

A few years ago they were almost at our capital and our people were still divided if these were men of god or just misled brothers.

Sanctions arent the only way. Our leadership, both military and civilian is very susceptible to material manipulation. They are a house of cards. A well glued one, but a house of cards. And given the motivation, people can take them apart.

They got South Africa to give up its nukes.. they can make us to the same voluntarily with some more effort. Or break down our command chain so badly that they are left useless.

Our best bet is to recognize this and essentially bite the bullet and do an all out extermination of extremists. In every form. It will be bloody, but it will keep the wolves at bay and give us time to recover from our cancer and be strong again.

We were on that path already, but our enemies were not going to give us breathing room. So its time to be more drastic than before.

You've got a contagious disease. And it's called Hyper-Nationalism-cum-Religious-burping.

That's very contagious.

Nationalism. Bah.. Ive switched my allegiance to the US. You have a disease called follow the leader blindly. And its turning you all into monsters.

 

[Karan Gulati]

Why Pakistan's Nuclear Arsenal Has Proven to Be Counterproductive

One of the most drummed up things in the national media about Pakistan is its nuclear arsenal. A state which by all accounts has failed to deliver even the basic necessities is being widely projected as one of the most important states by the right-wing intelligentsia. However it goes beyond this. The nuclear arsenal has become our sole "credible" claim to glory and consequently the justification for all the conspiracy theories according to which the entire world is wary of us.

This conspiracy theory culture which is outwardly looking, shifts the blame to foreign powers, who are allegedly jealous of Pakistan's nuclear might, and are always trying to purge the country of its "crowning" jewel. Several right wing TV anchors have constructed entire careers on perpetuating this culture of suspicion which is fueled by mythology built around glorification of Islamic fortress, Pakistan.

One of the biggest ironies of the nuclear arsenal, from what I keep hearing, is that it is protecting Pakistan from a US or Indian take over and yet the actual evidence suggests that we are protecting the arsenal. The fact that we have ended up protecting a device which was supposed to protect us is such an irony and yet completely incomprehensible to many Pakistanis who continue to gloat over it.

But why have we come to this stage? Why are we seeking a strange delusional solace in a device which is supposed to kill millions? Why is our entire intellectual thrust on perpetuating a strange culture of suspicion where every barbaric act, even if conducted and fully claimed, by our home grown Frankenstein monster, is construed to be planned by the foreign powers solely to take hold of nuclear arsenal.

The answer lies in the thoroughly bruised identity, particularly the way it has evolved after the debacle of East Pakistan in 1971 and defeat from India. East Pakistan debacle among many other things shattered the myth of superiority of Pakistani army's quality.

Before 1971, even within army circles, a martial race myth had gradually been constructed. According to this myth a Muslim soldier is far superior in quality due to extraordinary valor originating out of faith. The glorification of army was not merely restricted to army as a fighting unit but stretched to include the state of Pakistan as Ayub (Pakistan's first military ruler) era was a military rule. Military rule practically defined state. Ayub's ruke was a far cry from the earlier "chaos" and it also saw active nation building done and supervised by the military. While in power and at the helm of the affairs, the army's image also became the national image.

The debacle of East Pakistan shattered the army's repute as an invincible fighting force and had lasting impact on the collective psyche of Pakistani nation . West Pakistani populace, particularly the middle class felt humiliated and could not believe that their cherished army had been routed. It was a moment of national humiliation. Moreover since at that time no one came to "rescue" Pakistan, and India had actively collaborated with the Bengali nationalists, it gave rise to conspiracy mode of thinking. For majority of the middle class, it was not that East Pakistan has been given unfair treatment, but rather an Indian and global conspiracy to break up Pakistan. To this date, majority of Pakistanis see the problems of Pakistan particularly relating to security through this conspiracy paradigm.

Pakistan's first democratically elected Prime Minister, Zulifiqar Ali Bhutto (ZAB) after taking power immediately started taking steps to curtail army's political role. Among these steps was forcible removal of the existing army chief, promotion of apparently "weak' officers like general Zia and creation of Federal Security Force (FSF), which was a parallel security force.

However, the 1974 nuclear test by India once again reopened the wounds of the 1971 humiliation and warranted some kind of response to settle 'scores' with India. It was under these circumstances that ZAB decided to embark upon the nuclear program. Being extremely intelligent ZAB understood that renewed threat from India would once again restore the army's position and importance. Hence the best bet was to actually match India and become a nuclear power. In this way, the army in its conventional role would not be required to that extent and consequently in the long run its political power would diminish as well. Thus the reason for becoming the nuclear power was in some ways an extension of the desire to curtail army's political ambitions. Plus the nuclear arsenal would soothe the bruised identity.

However, the reality unfortunately has not conformed to the wishes of the initiator of the nuclear program. Although the nuclear arsenal has proven to be apparently successful in soothing the bruised identity of Pakistani middle class, but the cost has been tremendous.

Nuclear arsenal has successfully soothed the bruised identity as it has apparently "settled" scores with India and given some importance to Pakistan in the international arena which it desperately needed. With the passage of time, as the failed state labelbecomes more justified the nuclear arsenal keeps on getting elevated in terms of our "success". Unfortunately the more Pakistan lags behind in economic and social indicators, more obsessive we become about nuclear arsenal and try to seek compensatory comfort in it.

Whether we admit it or not, Pakistan ranks low in important social indicators pertaining to transparency, literacy, economy and healthcare even when compared to developing economies of similar characteristics. In Human Development Index,Pakistan stands at 146th and below even countries will lesser per capita income such as Bhutan, Nepal and Namibia . According to Gender Gap report, Pakistan ranks 141 out of 142 "beating" only Yemen. In Freedom of Press Index, Pakistan ranks 158 out of 180 , in Religious Restriction Index Pakistan is ranked as the worst and in Fragile State Index Pakistan ranks 13th in the category of "High Alert" countries which includes Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria.

Nuclear arsenal thus becomes the only "achievement" and therefore talked to death in our right wing circles. At times it becomes actually embarrassing that we are not able to provide basic things like education and electricity and yet assume ourselves to be the center of the world due to our nuclear status. Even when given the chance to have more aid and reduction of foreign debt in exchange for not conducting the tests in 1998, we unanimously opted for going nuclear. The irony was that within one month's time, we as a nation proved how hollow we were, when instead of showing mettle and inner strength to face sanctions, we were busy betting on the devaluation of rupee!

In addition this "achievement" has made us deeply paranoid about the rest of the world and with terrifying consequences. As Pakistan falls deeply into insecurity and terrorism, instead of correctly identifying the causes, the nuclear obsession leads us to believe that everything is a grand conspiracy to take hold of the nuclear arsenal.

Moreover, the nuclear status has not provided protection to Pakistan and rather it has exposed it to needless international scrutiny. Pakistan's security problems are no longer emanating from India but are rather homegrown and ironically are in some ways an outcome of the nuclear status itself. The nuclear status actually enabled the deep state to train militant elements without fearing a full scale war.

In addition, contrary to ZAB's original aim of weakening the army, the nuclear arsenal has actually strengthened it. Once army took over, the nuclear program actually became its shield to undertake covert activities in the neighboring countries. In fact, army and nuclear "image' have intertwined and army has successfully positioned itself as the guardian of the nuclear program.

Right now the ultranationalist section of the population has to redirect its concerns and energies to real issues rather than on this nuclear paranoia. Frankly the nuclear arsenal has proven to be one of our greatest drawbacks and has ended up creating more problems for us.

Why Pakistan's Nuclear Arsenal Has Proven to Be Counterproductive | Raza Habib Raja

 

[Zibago]

Why Pakistan's Nuclear Arsenal Has Proven to Be Counterproductive

One of the most drummed up things in the national media about Pakistan is its nuclear arsenal. A state which by all accounts has failed to deliver even the basic necessities is being widely projected as one of the most important states by the right-wing intelligentsia. However it goes beyond this. The nuclear arsenal has become our sole "credible" claim to glory and consequently the justification for all the conspiracy theories according to which the entire world is wary of us.

This conspiracy theory culture which is outwardly looking, shifts the blame to foreign powers, who are allegedly jealous of Pakistan's nuclear might, and are always trying to purge the country of its "crowning" jewel. Several right wing TV anchors have constructed entire careers on perpetuating this culture of suspicion which is fueled by mythology built around glorification of Islamic fortress, Pakistan.

One of the biggest ironies of the nuclear arsenal, from what I keep hearing, is that it is protecting Pakistan from a US or Indian take over and yet the actual evidence suggests that we are protecting the arsenal. The fact that we have ended up protecting a device which was supposed to protect us is such an irony and yet completely incomprehensible to many Pakistanis who continue to gloat over it.

But why have we come to this stage? Why are we seeking a strange delusional solace in a device which is supposed to kill millions? Why is our entire intellectual thrust on perpetuating a strange culture of suspicion where every barbaric act, even if conducted and fully claimed, by our home grown Frankenstein monster, is construed to be planned by the foreign powers solely to take hold of nuclear arsenal.

The answer lies in the thoroughly bruised identity, particularly the way it has evolved after the debacle of East Pakistan in 1971 and defeat from India. East Pakistan debacle among many other things shattered the myth of superiority of Pakistani army's quality.

Before 1971, even within army circles, a martial race myth had gradually been constructed. According to this myth a Muslim soldier is far superior in quality due to extraordinary valor originating out of faith. The glorification of army was not merely restricted to army as a fighting unit but stretched to include the state of Pakistan as Ayub (Pakistan's first military ruler) era was a military rule. Military rule practically defined state. Ayub's ruke was a far cry from the earlier "chaos" and it also saw active nation building done and supervised by the military. While in power and at the helm of the affairs, the army's image also became the national image.

The debacle of East Pakistan shattered the army's repute as an invincible fighting force and had lasting impact on the collective psyche of Pakistani nation . West Pakistani populace, particularly the middle class felt humiliated and could not believe that their cherished army had been routed. It was a moment of national humiliation. Moreover since at that time no one came to "rescue" Pakistan, and India had actively collaborated with the Bengali nationalists, it gave rise to conspiracy mode of thinking. For majority of the middle class, it was not that East Pakistan has been given unfair treatment, but rather an Indian and global conspiracy to break up Pakistan. To this date, majority of Pakistanis see the problems of Pakistan particularly relating to security through this conspiracy paradigm.

Pakistan's first democratically elected Prime Minister, Zulifiqar Ali Bhutto (ZAB) after taking power immediately started taking steps to curtail army's political role. Among these steps was forcible removal of the existing army chief, promotion of apparently "weak' officers like general Zia and creation of Federal Security Force (FSF), which was a parallel security force.

However, the 1974 nuclear test by India once again reopened the wounds of the 1971 humiliation and warranted some kind of response to settle 'scores' with India. It was under these circumstances that ZAB decided to embark upon the nuclear program. Being extremely intelligent ZAB understood that renewed threat from India would once again restore the army's position and importance. Hence the best bet was to actually match India and become a nuclear power. In this way, the army in its conventional role would not be required to that extent and consequently in the long run its political power would diminish as well. Thus the reason for becoming the nuclear power was in some ways an extension of the desire to curtail army's political ambitions. Plus the nuclear arsenal would soothe the bruised identity.

However, the reality unfortunately has not conformed to the wishes of the initiator of the nuclear program. Although the nuclear arsenal has proven to be apparently successful in soothing the bruised identity of Pakistani middle class, but the cost has been tremendous.

Nuclear arsenal has successfully soothed the bruised identity as it has apparently "settled" scores with India and given some importance to Pakistan in the international arena which it desperately needed. With the passage of time, as the failed state labelbecomes more justified the nuclear arsenal keeps on getting elevated in terms of our "success". Unfortunately the more Pakistan lags behind in economic and social indicators, more obsessive we become about nuclear arsenal and try to seek compensatory comfort in it.

Whether we admit it or not, Pakistan ranks low in important social indicators pertaining to transparency, literacy, economy and healthcare even when compared to developing economies of similar characteristics. In Human Development Index,Pakistan stands at 146th and below even countries will lesser per capita income such as Bhutan, Nepal and Namibia . According to Gender Gap report, Pakistan ranks 141 out of 142 "beating" only Yemen. In Freedom of Press Index, Pakistan ranks 158 out of 180 , in Religious Restriction Index Pakistan is ranked as the worst and in Fragile State Index Pakistan ranks 13th in the category of "High Alert" countries which includes Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria.

Nuclear arsenal thus becomes the only "achievement" and therefore talked to death in our right wing circles. At times it becomes actually embarrassing that we are not able to provide basic things like education and electricity and yet assume ourselves to be the center of the world due to our nuclear status. Even when given the chance to have more aid and reduction of foreign debt in exchange for not conducting the tests in 1998, we unanimously opted for going nuclear. The irony was that within one month's time, we as a nation proved how hollow we were, when instead of showing mettle and inner strength to face sanctions, we were busy betting on the devaluation of rupee!

In addition this "achievement" has made us deeply paranoid about the rest of the world and with terrifying consequences. As Pakistan falls deeply into insecurity and terrorism, instead of correctly identifying the causes, the nuclear obsession leads us to believe that everything is a grand conspiracy to take hold of the nuclear arsenal.

Moreover, the nuclear status has not provided protection to Pakistan and rather it has exposed it to needless international scrutiny. Pakistan's security problems are no longer emanating from India but are rather homegrown and ironically are in some ways an outcome of the nuclear status itself. The nuclear status actually enabled the deep state to train militant elements without fearing a full scale war.

In addition, contrary to ZAB's original aim of weakening the army, the nuclear arsenal has actually strengthened it. Once army took over, the nuclear program actually became its shield to undertake covert activities in the neighboring countries. In fact, army and nuclear "image' have intertwined and army has successfully positioned itself as the guardian of the nuclear program.

Right now the ultranationalist section of the population has to redirect its concerns and energies to real issues rather than on this nuclear paranoia. Frankly the nuclear arsenal has proven to be one of our greatest drawbacks and has ended up creating more problems for us.

Why Pakistan's Nuclear Arsenal Has Proven to Be Counterproductive | Raza Habib Raja

Yet Pakistan has lower poverty rate than India

 

[Karan Gulati]

Yet Pakistan has lower poverty rate than India

Talk about it when you have done proper census of your country.

 

[Maarkhoor]

That might be a possibility. However, one has to understand the phenomenon of Modi. This is not one man who is a monster as we make him out to be. In a way, take it as an illusion to Imran Khan(not in terms of mentality but the political phenomenon and public behaviour). There is a man who has been successful at getting his state as a economic powerhouse. As happens with such people, there are advisors and sycophantic suckups who like to tag along. There are those that push their policy and ideas through him. The same with Modi. He may not like Muslims but he certainly did not hate them with ferocity. He is a man more obsessed with who he is(much like IK)...and yet genuinly wishes good for his country. Along the way, his persona works.. but he must also give into his RSS backing at times for political support.

Right now, punishing Pakistan for 26/11 will work as a call. As a long term run, finishing Pakistan's nuclear weapons capability by having the world take it from us will serve as a goal. Both a very possible because our own love for the Taliban and extremism has provided them the ammunition they needed. They thought strategic, we thought tactical.

Right now, they are on the offensive and they have the card to play. We dont.

So how can the snatch our nuclear capability, if they strike our nuclear plants we shall retaliate and destroy their plants but neither we or India can destroy all the stockpile or warheads.

 

[Zibago]

Talk about it when you have done proper census of your country.

World bank and adb 2014 report

60% India 50% for Pakistan

 

[Karan Gulati]

World bank and adb 2014 report

60% India 50% for Pakistan

In 2011-12, only 21.9% of Indians were below poverty line | Business Standard News

Please provide link for your claims, latest reports would be appreciated.

 

[Zibago]

In 2011-12, only 21.9% of Indians were below poverty line | Business Standard News

Please provide link for your claims, latest reports would be appreciated.

Love to
Poverty headcount ratio at $2 a day (PPP) (% of population) | Data | Table

Key Indicators for Asia and the Pacific 2014 | Asian Development Bank

In 2011-12, only 21.9% of Indians were below poverty line | Business Standard News

Please provide link for your claims, latest reports would be appreciated.

Love to
Poverty headcount ratio at $2 a day (PPP) (% of population) | Data | Table

Key Indicators for Asia and the Pacific 2014 | Asian Development Bank

 

[Karan Gulati]

Love to
Poverty headcount ratio at $2 a day (PPP) (% of population) | Data | Table

Key Indicators for Asia and the Pacific 2014 | Asian Development Bank

$2 a day? Rs. 130 that would be equivalent to daily pocket money of an average Indian student like me and I ain't poor

I believe Indian reports claim on Indian poverty than some foreign report who have no idea of the purchasing power of the country.

 

[Zibago]

Adb claims are higher than world Bank's though

$2 a day? Rs. 130 that would be equivalent to daily pocket money of an average Indian student like me and I ain't poor

I believe Indian reports claim on Indian poverty than some foreign report who have no idea of the purchasing power of the country.

By setting the ceiling as if I am not mistaking 50 cents right?

 

[Karan Gulati]

Adb claims are higher than world Bank's though


By setting the ceiling as if I am not mistaking 50 cents right?

Nopes, enough to survive in Indian cities. A dolar in India can purchase much more than a dollar in US. As per $1.25 criteria as suggested by world bank, we have only 22 percent population below poverty line. That's why you see people in slums in India having TV, Dish and all the modern amenities.

And anyway, in HDI, the real indicator of social well being, India is leading all the way compared to other South Asian countries with the exception of Sri Lanka, and remember this is despite the huge population of 1.2 billion people, some Individual states fair even better SL.

Darker the color, better is the HDI

 

[Sine Nomine]

Our leadership, both military and civilian is very susceptible to material manipulation. They are a house of cards. A well glued one, but a house of cards.

Sir if that happens(Allah na kery)then it will be kill two birds with one stone.
1)Nuke taken,so no strong Nuclear Jaw.
2)Civil War and mutiny in PA.
About point 2,After Abbottabd Raid you know that Kiyani Visited Formations all across state very rapidly that was due to anger among young officer and men who were thinking that Brass in not loyal to country. Kiyani visited and met young officers to clear that smoke, in order to make sure that nobody from inside pulls Gun on us.
In that case this will generate Mutiny,thus dividing forces and leading us to same point were West has flushed Syria,Libya,Iraq,Afghanistan successfully.

 

[Zibago]

Nopes, enough to survive in Indian cities. A dolar in India can purchase much more than a dollar in US. As per $1.25 criteria as suggested by world bank, we have only 22 percent population below poverty line. That's why you see people in slums in India having TV, Dish and all the modern amenities.

And anyway, in HDI, the real indicator of social well being, India is leading all the way compared to other South Asian countries with the exception of Sri Lanka, and remember this is despite the huge population of 1.2 billion people, some Individual states fair even better SL.

Darker the color, better is the HDI

Even after using the revised poverty rate India,s poverty rate is still higher than Pakistan

India's poor may shrink 75% by new World Bank formula | Business Standard Mobile Website


World Bank Revises Pakistan Poverty Rate Sharply Down - Business News & Media Blog Articles

 

[Karan Gulati]

Even after using the revised poverty rate India,s poverty rate is still higher than Pakistan

India's poor may shrink 75% by new World Bank formula | Business Standard Mobile Website


World Bank Revises Pakistan Poverty Rate Sharply Down - Business News & Media Blog Articles

You mean to say out of 10 people I meet on street 7 are below poverty line: In fact, I meet filthy rich on street most of the times in my city.

"The $1.25 level set by the World Bank is taken as the poverty line globally. The rupee’s value against the dollar averaged 47.85 in 2011-12. The purchasing power parity (PPP) rate for the rupee against the dollar could be arrived at by dividing the average exchange rate by 2.55. So, at the 2011-12 exchange rate of Rs 47.85 a dollar, the PPP rate would be Rs 18.76. The $1.25 poverty line at that PPP rate would mean Rs 23.45 — less than India’s poverty line for both rural and urban areas as announced for 2011-12 on Tuesday."

As per your benchmark, following can be said about Pakistan
Earning $2 a day, 60.19% population live below poverty line

and if we consider 1.25 $ then following is the statistics
Over 50 percent of population living below poverty line: World Bank | Business Recorder

Now, Lets compare improvements.
India’s poverty level falls to record 22%: Planning Commission - Livemint

Poverty levels down by 15% in eight years - The Hindu

Compared to
“Urban poverty is on a persistent rise in Pakistan” | YourCommonwealth

Rising poverty in Pakistan


For a change lets also compare super rich, rich and middle class of both the countries. Why always comparison be based on poor people, rich people are equally part of the country, let's for a change therefore compare the rich, super rich and middle class people between the two countries but before we start, you should know that India's richest man has net worth more than forex reserve of Pakistan Another thing is despite our huge population, our per capita Income and HDI is better than pakistan showing that an average Indian lives much better than an average Pakistani.