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Amar Jawan memorial vandalism

You said that they did it because they were so very frustrated in life or were they my comments?
Last time ...Let me paste your quote
I have never said or implied that people can do anything they wish to. Now let me paste from my first quote:




Thats what i have been requesting you, havent i? .... To stop viewing this from religions lens. Police does not have any political agenda, atleast none for a bunch of thugs. The only reason they will NOT be able to catch this two thugs is because of competence. Hence , request people to stop spreading this false rumors (rumors unless proven truth) about police not catching thugs for political reason.


In that case i owe you a apology. My bad.



hatred towards Muslims .. No, i never accused of you of that. I do feel that you attach a religious angle to this incident.

Lastly, my posts do not mean to accuse or belittle individual. However i feel strongly about our country's secular roots. Its high time we face the mirror and act secular.

Dude do you really believe there was no religious angle to what happened in Mumbai or now what is happening all across India (exodus of NE people)? Do you want riots in India and innocents dying and social fabric of India torn to shreds because of happening in Myanmar, Syria, Palestine, Pakistan..? :hitwall:
 
same old lame logic....

Tell me, if India is NOT a Muslim country then why should the Muslims be treated differently here...

They are NOT treated differently here, not in law.

They, Hindus, Christians are all allowed to choose their personal law system for personal and family related matters: marriage, divorce, inheritance.

All of them can also opt to select the civil equivalents of these personal laws, and have to select it, without a choice, when for instance a marriage represents two communities and neither partner wishes to switch.

Where in all this is the Muslim being treated differently? The Hindu Undivided Family is a unique concept, and NO other citizen can use this tax device. Does any section complain about the Hindu being treated differently?

You said that the norms and principles of the AIMPLB are regressive and medieval(which I agree with)....so they definitely contradict with the Law Of The Land(unless you think the Law Of The Land is also regressive and Medieval).......;)

No,they don't. Their advice applies to areas NOT covered by the law of the land, and it is, in any case, the advice of an NGO, nothing more . YOU can set up one of these bodies tomorrow, and will have as much legal standing, authority or binding force.

Now please explain, Why on earth the AIMPLB should be ignored(as you suggested previously) when their norms and principles CONTRADICT with the Law Of The Land????

I didn't say that their norms and principles contradict the law of the land. That is absurd. You said that absurd thing, out of sheer ignorance.

They can advise, nothing more. Nobody has to take their advice.

The community itself disliked their suggestions so much that very soon Shias, and Muslim Women, set up different Boards, these are all advisory bodies, NGOs. They are given credibility because idiots take them seriously, instead of ignoring them.

Some of these idiots are Muslim idiots.

Why should AIMPLB be ignored and allowed to impose their medieval laws onto another Muslim(who is a citizen of India and must abide by the Law Of The Land)????

You are saying the same thing over and over again; do you believe that doing so will increase its accuracy? It doesn't; your stTement remains completely wrong.

The AIMPLB is NOT allowed to impose its mediaeval laws onto anyone. The Muslim Personal Law exists, as it has existed in the laws of India as valid law by practice in earlier centuries, and by statute since the 1930s. The judges, in courts of law constituted by the Republic, administrator these laws, not some religious appointee. EVERY citizen therefore is subjected to the law of the land, administered by judges. Judges sitting in judgement on any of these cases can be from ANY community, and their decisions are binding. Only acts of Parliament can contradict or alter these judgements.

Why should The Law Of The Land be different for different citizens of India????

More repetition, apparently because repeating something three times will make it true.

THE LAW OF THE LAND IS NOT DIFFERENT FOR DIFFERENT CITIZENS OF INDIA.

Shouldn't the Muslims be forced to change their norms those contradict with the Law Of The Land.....like they did it for Hindus...

The Hindus were not forced to change their norms; this is a straw horse. Every piece of legislation changing the Personal Law of the Hindus was enacted by a legislative body. There is nothing stopping the current legislative bodies, Parliament, primarily, from altering portions of the Muslim Personal Law; after all, due to Mary Roy's efforts, the Christian Personal Law has been changed.

Now you see, where you are contradicting Yourself....if you don't, then you are simply a Religious Opportunist and communalist like those thugs who vandalized the respected monument and wants to escape punishment by holding out the minority card.....with the help of our politicians....:hitwall:

And you're accusing us of being communalists....what an Irony....:eek:

Now perhaps you see how you have been arguing with a half-baked understanding of how the law is made, and administered. What comment is needed for the rest of your remarks?
 
They are NOT treated differently here, not in law.

They, Hindus, Christians are all allowed to choose their personal law system for personal and family related matters: marriage, divorce, inheritance.

All of them can also opt to select the civil equivalents of these personal laws, and have to select it, without a choice, when for instance a marriage represents two communities and neither partner wishes to switch.

Where in all this is the Muslim being treated differently? The Hindu Undivided Family is a unique concept, and NO other citizen can use this tax device. Does any section complain about the Hindu being treated differently?

But the devil lies in the details.

The Hindu Laws were reformed during the Nehru period and modernized under Hindu Code Bills(for example, it reflects equality of women in many aspects) While the Christian laws which was prevalent during the British days were considered modern enough and did not need that refinement. But the Muslim Personal Law which was antiquated and was there since British days was untouched. The other religious people like Sikhs and Buddhists were brought under the Hindu Code Bills.

Nehru can be blamed for not reforming the Muslim Personal Laws. And the legacy was followed by his descendants as well. Any future attempt by the Indian courts to chip away some of the antiquated provisions under Muslim Personal Law was stalled by the Congres(notable example Shah Banoo case and the subsequent bill stalling the court ruling by Rajiv) and now I am afraid the same will happen as the AIMPLB is opposing the RTE.

Muslims are not treated differently under laws but the rulers of the land join hands with the religious conservatives to play divisive politics.
 
But the devil lies in the details.

The Hindu Laws were reformed during the Nehru period and modernized under Hindu Code Bills(for example, it reflects equality of women in many aspects) While the Christian laws which was prevalent during the British days were considered modern enough and did not need that refinement. But the Muslim Personal Law which was antiquated and was there since British days was untouched. The other religious people like Sikhs and Buddhists were brought under the Hindu Code Bills.

Nehru can be blamed for not reforming the Muslim Personal Laws. And the legacy was followed by his descendants as well. Any future attempt by the Indian courts to chip away some of the antiquated provisions under Muslim Personal Law was stalled by the Congres(notable example Shah Banoo case and the subsequent bill stalling the court ruling by Rajiv) and now I am afraid the same will happen as the AIMPLB is opposing the RTE.

Muslims are not treated differently under laws but the rulers of the land join hands with the religious conservatives to play divisive politics.

Not to sound supercilious, but your excellent summary is a summary of a known situation. With some difference in the details that you have suggested, which are important enough to remind ourselves about.

The Hindu Personal Law was under reform from the 19th century onwards. The Special Marriage Act, for instance, was legislated due to the firm objection of the Brahmo Samaj to being lumped with caste Hindus. So much for the spluttering brigade which puts a thick coat of Dharmic identity over all systems of faith of south Asian origin. This was in 1872, and was revised in recent years, in the Nehru era, sometime in the 1950s.

Subsequently the Sarda Act came in force by 1929. It restrained child marriage, and provided for punishment for violation, but did not invalidate the marriage itself.

Not only were the reforms of Hindu Personal Law not as recent as the Nehru era, there were also inter-relationships with other Indian laws of the Hindu Personal Law, for instance, in the interaction of the Hindu Undivided Family with the Hindu Marriage Act, as well as the Hindu Succession Act. Both those acts were modifications of Hindu Personal Law, brought in as clarifications, and they created as well defined the scope of the Hindu Undivided Family.

Just to add a complication, Hindus are divided into two sections under the Hindu Personal Law. While most Hindus within India are subject to Mitakshara, we Bengalis are governed by Dayabhaga. The provisions of these two codes is different, and judges pay due attention to these. So, too, must bankers; they may lend to Hindu Undivided Families formed by families governed by the Mitakshara code, and those formed by families governed by the Dayabhaga code in completely different manner.

The point is that all these complications apply to Hindu Personal Law, and are recognised by law. These peculiarities are not rejected simply because they do not exist in other systems of Personal Law; they are respected and implemented, and judges need to be aware of them and of their implications while hearing a matter.

It is wrong to think that Hindu Personal Law was equated to Civil Law under Nehru. This personal law was reformed according to the requirements of its constituents, and not necessarily always in the direction of modernity. The Hindu Undivided Family is a concept which allows considerable flexibility in tax matters to our community, so it is wrong to assume that we are underprivileged compared to Muslim or Christians.

It is also wrong to say that Muslim Personal Law was antiquated and not touched since British days, since, as we have seen, many aspects of Hindu Personal Law were articulated long before the Muslim Personal Law, which first entered the statute books in 1937, with an amendment in 1939. How does this compare unfavourably with the 1872 Special Marriage Act, and with the 1929 Sarda Act?

Coming to your comments about the reforms of the Muslim Personal Law, while I am a critic of Nehru, for various reasons, it is unfair to put the burden of failure to reform Muslim Personal Law on him. It was the failure of the entire Congress party, and stemmed from the unfortunate decision of Gandhi to align the independence movement with Muslim conservatives, with the religious orthodoxy, rather than the 'salariat', who in reaction flocked to the Muslim League.

We have to understand the impact on today's politics of that alignment.

The alignment is shown clearly by the ardent support of mediaeval minds like 'Maulana' Maududi (who was a Maulana only by acclamation) and the Jamaat-e-Islami. They opposed Pakistan tooth and nail, and called it Paleetistan; to them, Jinnah was Kufr-e-Azam. It was only sometime after partition that Maududi made his way into Pakistan, and made the amazing volte face of declaring that the conservatives had all along been in favour of Pakistan. The subsequent history of Pakistan shows the gradual, creeping erosion of liberal values by the conservatives, first by the massacre of Ahmedis, for which Maududi was condemned to death by the Pakistani courts.

In India, the Congress continued to back conservative, orthodox Muslim sections, rather than the progressive elements. It is hugely hypocritical of right-wing Hindu conservatives (the shouting brigade on PDF) to blame Muslims today for being led by conservatives, when Indian leadership of left and right had both rebuffed progressive Muslims and encouraged orthodox Muslims. That is why brave individuals like Arif Mohammed Khan or Asghar Ali Engineer or Javed Akhtar are isolated figures in their own community, because the community knows who has government backing.

There has been a lot of gibing about the Shah Bano case. Let me sum it up for you. The courts decided against the interpretation (it was only an interpretation) that maintenance was to be paid to a divorced Muslim woman only for three months after the divorce. The Supreme Court held that maintenance was payable throughout the life of the divorced person.

Conservative Muslims opposed it. The Congress government of Rajiv Gandhi made one of its tragic blunders, caved in under pressure, and legislated a bill to cover the situation, to ensure that maintenance would only be for three months after the divorce, as the Mullahs had interpreted it.

This is where most people are satisfied to stop, and to excoriate the Muslim community for being backward and mediaeval. It also comes to the entirely unjustified conclusion that Muslims are not treated equally with others under the laws of the land. This conclusion stems from the inference that the Supreme Court judgement was not honoured, and legislation was brought in to contradict the court verdict. This conclusion is simplistic and wrong.

Indian courts have ensured that the bill in question should be interpreted in a fair and equitable fashion, by applying the law in accordance with the needs of natural justice. For instance,

High Courts have interpreted "just and fair provision" that a woman is entitled to during her iddat period very broadly to include amounts worth lakhs (hundreds of thousands) of rupees. More recently the Supreme Court in Danial Latifi v. Union of India read the Act with Art 14 and 15 of the constitution which prevent discrimination on the basis of sex and held that the intention of the framers could not have been to deprive Muslim women of their rights. Further the Supreme Court construed the statutory provision in such a manner that it does not fall foul of Articles 14 and 15. The provision in question is Section 3(1)(a) of the Muslim Women (Protection of Rights on Divorce) Act, 1986 which states that "a reasonable and fair provision and maintenance to be made and paid to her within the iddat period by her former husband". The Court held this provision means that reasonable and fair provision and maintenance is not limited for the iddat period (as evidenced by the use of word "within" and not "for"). It extends for the entire life of the divorced wife until she remarries.

You mentioned the fear that the AIMPLB would sabotage the Right to Education Act by opposing it. The AIMPLB is purely a self-appointed NGO with NO statutory power, and NO claim to be the sole arbiter of Muslim Personal Law.

I suggested ignoring it, and it raised a storm.

It is precisely by ignoring this body of regressive priests and religious scholars that we can enfeeble their authority. Every time they are acknowledged or their primitive opinions are entertained or allowed to obstruct progressive legislation, we are allowing them to wield undue influence over our lives, and to keep the Muslim community in the belief that this board has some legal standing.

In conclusion, I disagree with your detailed analysis, but agree totally with your summary,

Muslims are not treated differently under laws but the rulers of the land join hands with the religious conservatives to play divisive politics

Indeed, the devil does lie in the details.

same old lame logic....

Tell me, if India is NOT a Muslim country then why should the Muslims be treated differently here...

Your running partner mentioned that in a Muslim country, I should not have been able to take the stand that I took. As is obvious, I pointed out that this is not a Muslim country. The rest of your rambling post is not connected in the remotest manner to that exchange.
 
I see allot of talking.

This is such a simple issue.


If you dishonour veterans and memorials, you go to prison, for a long time. Forget the politics of religion and what country the shameless traitors are from.

These people in the pictures should be in prison for at least 3 years doing hard labour. If they were sentenced to 10, I would not cry for them.

If you dishonour veterans and memorials, you are put on trial and tried for that offence. If you are found guilty, you are punished according to the law of the land, not 'for a long time', or 'for at least 3 years doing hard labour'.

It's as simple as that.
 
I see allot of talking.

This is such a simple issue.


If you dishonour veterans and memorials, you go to prison, for a long time. Forget the politics of religion and what country the shameless traitors are from.

These people in the pictures should be in prison for at least 3 years doing hard labour. If they were sentenced to 10, I would not cry for them.

So you are telling me that if they had not vandalized the Amar Jawan memorial, then they get to go scott free? Even after supporting Bangladeshis under the banner of common religion?

Was this the same excuse that was used when pandits exiled from their own land in Kashmir?

It was not a matter of religion UNTIL NOW. Now it has really crossed the decency limit and even the most hardcore centrists are pressed into believing it except a few who live by the river called Denial.

same old lame logic....

Tell me, if India is NOT a Muslim country then why should the Muslims be treated differently here...
You said that the norms and principles of the AIMPLB are regressive and medieval(which I agree with)....so they definitely contradict with the Law Of The Land(unless you think the Law Of The Land is also regressive and Medieval).......;)



Now please explain, Why on earth the AIMPLB should be ignored(as you suggested previously) when their norms and principles CONTRADICT with the Law Of The Land????



Why should AIMPLB be ignored and allowed to impose their medieval laws onto another Muslim(who is a citizen of India and must abide by the Law Of The Land)????

Simple, votes for those who support and sustain these regressive laws, at the cost of alienating an entire community in the country.

Why should The Law Of The Land be different for different citizens of India????

Ask this question dozens of times; never got an answer for it and only got personal attacks in response. They have no answer for it.

Shouldn't the Muslims be forced to change their norms those contradict with the Law Of The Land.....like they did it for Hindus...

Now you see, where you are contradicting Yourself....if you don't, then you are simply a Religious Opportunist and communalist like those thugs who vandalized the respected monument and wants to escape punishment by holding out the minority card.....with the help of our politicians....:hitwall:

Their political ideology is defined by doing just that, buddy.

I was hopeful that this horrific incident in Assam would at least snap them out of their dream world of "secularism" but they fully justify and protect the attackers under this or that garb.

And you're accusing us of being communalists....what an Irony....:eek:

Get used to it; in the coming days things are going to get nastier between us and their kind.
 

peaceful protesters
images

The guy with the gun has been caught.

Viral video helps cops nab trigger-happy rioter who pinched police gun
 
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It is wrong to think that Hindu Personal Law was equated to Civil Law under Nehru. This personal law was reformed according to the requirements of its constituents, and not necessarily always in the direction of modernity. The Hindu Undivided Family is a concept which allows considerable flexibility in tax matters to our community, so it is wrong to assume that we are underprivileged compared to Muslim or Christians.

I will keep my response short and simple due to want of time(came for quick lunch)

I have not claimed anywhere that Hindu personal law equated to Civil Law nor a perfect one or underprivileged. I did not go much into the details and for ease of discussions, kept it simple. I know for a fact that the Hindu Personal Law by Nehru offered only certain clarifications to existing laws and is not perfect but have gone through amendments, the most recentone around March 24th of this year in the area of divorce. So still I would call the muslim personal law antiquated.

India have to go through the same process as US went through before a semblance of maturity is achieved when the Women's suffrage was provided only in 1920 as part of the 19th amendment.

And I have not blamed the moderate muslims for this issue but on Congress and the fundamentalists. I have given Mohammed Arif Khan credit in one of my postings while slamming Rajiv.


My reasoning is simple - different laws for different religions and after declaring the country to be secular and having the flexibility to alter certain religious laws but not having the same flexilibilty to alter a particular religious laws thereby pandering to the minority fundamentalists. That is my grouse.

But you argue Nehru was helpless. I would argue on the contrary. Gandhi showed the way but Nehru with all the support within Congress(after Gandhi and Sardar died) could have changed the way but he did not.

You suggest ignoring AIMPLB but does it happen in India? What you are providing is a suggestion which in today's India is not practical due to how the parties have been functioning.
 
Angry Bangladeshi immigrants were provoked by leader

Investigations have revealed that they were invited to the rally by an organisation, and went on a rampage when its chief said that it was mostly people of their nationality who were being brutalised in Assam and Burma

Preliminary investigations into the riot that shook South Mumbai on Saturday have revealed that the mob was teeming with Bangladeshi nationals. Statements of eyewitness have revealed that the Bangladeshis were instigated by a particular leader who convinced them that mostly Bangladeshis had been subjected to atrocities in Assam and Burma.

Sources revealed that a newly formed organisation had invited Bangladeshi nationals to participate in the protest rally. When the leader of the organisation allegedly made provocative statements that were sure to instigate the crowd, some other members objected, but the leader pretended not to hear.

The said chief was also instrumental in sending letters to maulanas requesting them to participate in the protest rally.

According to Crime Branch officials, Bangladeshi nationals staying in Mazgaon, Reay Road, Antop Hill, Govandi, Shivaji Nagar, Bhiwandi and Kalyan were approached and urged to participate in the protest rally at Azad Maidan.

Over the years, many Bangladeshi nationals have been booked by the Mumbai police for staying illegally in the country.

A separate branch has been formed within the Special Branch unit-I to arrest and deport Bangladeshi migrants who illegally pour into the city.
“There is vengeance on the minds of these nationals, who have been facing police action on a daily basis.

They participated in the rally in huge numbers, and went on a rampage after they were misguided by certain leaders,” said a police officer from Azad Maidan, on condition of anonymity.
 
So after the Friday prayers, Muslim mob in Lucknow went on a rampage. They destroyed public property, attacked media men and desecrated the statue of Mahavira (one of the Tirthankaras of the Jain religion). There are reports that a statue of Buddha was also desecrated.

The mob was allegedly pissed off because images released by media during the Mumbai riots lead to an arrest of a fellow Muslim brother. *facepalm* The same mob then decided to teach Buddhists a lesson for committing atrocities against Muslims in Myanmar and desecrated a Jain statue in the process. *facepalm again*

I wonder if this was a Hindu mob what hysteria the media would have resulted into! The image of this vandalism is published in today's Hindustan Times and is all over twitter. Being a new member, I can't post links before I reach a count of 5.
 
Hey Joe,

Just for you:


I admire your candid islamophobia.

Here is another sample of the so-called peace:angry: :

229148_10151017140624331_317250208_n.jpg


What do you have to say now, buddy?

So after the Friday prayers, Muslim mob in Lucknow went on a rampage. They destroyed public property, attacked media men and desecrated the statue of Mahavira (one of the Tirthankaras of the Jain religion). There are reports that a statue of Buddha was also desecrated.

The mob was allegedly pissed off because images released by media during the Mumbai riots lead to an arrest of a fellow Muslim brother. *facepalm* The same mob then decided to teach Buddhists a lesson for committing atrocities against Muslims in Myanmar and desecrated a Jain statue in the process. *facepalm again*

I wonder if this was a Hindu mob what hysteria the media would have resulted into! The image of this vandalism is published in today's Hindustan Times and is all over twitter. Being a new member, I can't post links before I reach a count of 5.

It is not a rumor. The sick intolerants did it.. I have posted the pic.

The audacity they have!!
 
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