Aman Ka Tamasha

[AA_]

Quaid-e-Azam once did think it was possible. But later circumstances convinced him to against being proud of the title of ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity, atleast about in geographical terms.

Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity: Jinnah's early politics

researchers.mq.edu.au

Q-E-A saw their duplicitous behavior and said nope, the hell with this. Wasn’t hard to see the Hindus hearts and decided on a separate country for the Muslims

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sun'nay me bohut acha he. The potential is great. Made me think of this. Here's to you, indians, from a Pakistani. @Paitoo @Krptonite @Joe Shearer

Two things.

We are already trading with you, just not directly, but through Dubai.

I have done business with a 'Pakistani'. A British gentleman born in Sialkot, who was extremely generous to me when I was trying to pull together a company in dire straits. Fortunately, I was able to return the favour a while later.

 

[indushek]

Time.

With what certinity can you predict the global political scenario for the next 70 years.

What is the probability that as newer generations become adult citizens, they can come up with a workable solution.

Is it for certain zero?

Think about it, it's 75 years.

One side came into existence, cause they felt they cannot live with the others. Leave aside the lot that stayed back, for whatever reasons. Talking about them here, will only open unnecessary pandora's box. I am talking facts here.

Now there are two sides, and for 75 years have invested on proving who is right in their birth outlook.

That's nearly three to four generations, give or take in a way.

For any generation to change outlook radically, it cannot happen in their living time. Unless there is any catastrophic change, owing to things like large scale invasions (Which are not going to happen in this nuclear age) / Climatic changes (again unlikely as I don't think we are sitting on any fault lines here) / Devastating wars (to engage in them both should have the wherewithal and you know the answer to that).

The only thing left is Bollywood style change, which we should never get into unless we believe in fantasy being real.

More than changing outlook, you should not forget the support systems built, to keep the outlook going. These support systems in these two sides cases, have many forms and faces. You think they will let their livelihood be threatened, because some imaginary trade brings peace initiative? Let us say they do too, seeing some future danger for existence.

What will the outside support system say? It takes more than inner strength, to keep things going at nation level. These outside support will punish the players at that point, as many deals have been struck based on the outlook. There will be tangible and intangible losses for them, and they sure as hell will not let it happen.

Lastly never forget that, people act on benefits they get. They never do it for lofty notions of greater good, as it's written in books or shown in movies. Forgetting realism, forgetting practicality leads to massive failures.

I am not ruling out the future generations realizing the futility of this conflict, but don't expect any tangible action for next one generation at least or as I feel two in the least. That is how I predict this 50 years period.

PS: 2 to 3 centuries is but a foot note, in the time line of a nation or culture as in our case.

 

[PDF]

Q-E-A saw their duplicitous behavior and said nope, the hell with this. Wasn’t hard to see the Hindus hearts and decided on a separate country for the Muslims

Circumstances. We never know perhaps he would again have a change of heart later in life if he didn't pass right after partition.

 

[villageidiot]

If you were not so obviously unaware of the historical realities, you might have been criticised fiercely.

As it is, there is no point in getting entertained by you. Might as well laugh at a kindergarten child trying to explain the world to her proud parents. Silly mistakes and omissions are part of the moment of pride.

What you just did, no way that is legal.

 

[PDF]

Lastly never forget that, people act on benefits they get. They never do it for lofty notions of greater good, as it's written in books or shown in movies. Forgetting realism, forgetting practicality leads to massive failures.

Muslims as a nation itself might not fall in this. We saw during the Khilafat movement that the support was mainly emotional and nothing much to gain from it.

Pakistan is majorly Muslim, and that has to be taken into account

That is how I predict this 50 years period.

If India and Pakistan does not come into some sort of settlement, I am not too optimistic that both of us will even last next 50 years.

Pakistan itself is internally unstable, perhaps much more unstable than India, and in times of instability, conflicts both internal and external are very much probable.

Pakistan shares many traits that we see in Afghanistan, especially of fighting. We fight within ourselves and we are mentally prepared to fight anyone. Not to condone any aggression but rather just simply highlighting the characteristics found in a large population here.

 

[Eskander]

Do you even know what you are talking about?

1. The immigrants were not dealing with Dravidians, but with the mixture of local hunter-gatherers and refugees from the expiring Indus Valley Civilisation.

Lol, this is clearly not your field of expertise. Let me quote

"Their ( Dravidian) origins are often viewed as being connected with the Indus Valley civilisation,[10][18][19] hence people and language spread east and southwards after the demise of the Indus Valley Civilisation in the early second millennium BCE,[20][21] some propose not long before the arrival of Indo-Aryan speakers,[22] with whom they intensively interacted.[23]Genetically, the Ancient Indus Valley people were composed of an Iranian Farmer- Gatherers and Indian Hunter-Gatherers or "First Indian" -related

Dravidian peoples - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That was true of the region between the Yamuna and the Thar Desert and the Western Ghats, the Satpura hills as well. That is a territory that exceeds the present geographical extent of Pakistan.

Our results show how ancestry from the Steppe genetically linked Europe and South Asia in the Bronze Age, and identifies the populations that almost certainly were responsible for spreading Indo-European languages across much of Eurasia.

The Genomic Formation of South and Central Asia

The genetic formation of Central and South Asian populations has been unclear because of an absence of ancient DNA. To address this gap, we generated genome-wide data from 362 ancient individuals, including the first from eastern Iran, Turan (Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, and Tajikistan), Bronze Age...

www.biorxiv.org

These immigrants were gradually swallowed up in the autochthones, the further east they went. By the time the Ganges-Yamuna combine met the Brahmaputra, there was between 10 to 30% Tibeto-Burmese DNA, along with the hunter-gatherer stock.

Source ? I don't think this is true cause they established a caste system that prevented inter mixing at a great level.

Moreover, the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank.

Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations

The origins and affinities of the ∼1 billion people living on the subcontinent of India have long been contested. This is owing, in part, to the many different waves of immigrants that have influenced the genetic structure of India. In the most ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

20%–30% of Indian mtDNA haplotypes belong to West Eurasian haplogroups

This is significant, you can't expect it to be 80~90%... that's just impossible

Coming to the 'intelligence' part - most of the discoveries, interrupted science though they were, were in the Gangetic plains, in the wetlands of the Godavari, the Krishna and the Kaveri, and, most dramatically, in the Kerala region. Only the utterly ignorant would consider the intelligence of the Indus Valley inhabitants to be superior on the grounds of their intellectual achievements, because the only significant ones were the development of Sanskrit in or around Takshashila, and the development of a very polished version of Mahayana Buddhist doctrine in the Kashmir region, that being the version that the Kushana spread over central Asia and possibly into China; the other source of Buddhism in China coming from a mixture of Kerala and Bengal scholars.

because the only significant ones were the development of Sanskrit in or around Takshashila, and the development of a very polished version of Mahayana Buddhist doctrine in the Kashmir region



So the development of Sanskrit and Mahayana Buddhism is a small feat ???

Pakistan is the birthplace of Hinduism, if it were not for my ancestors, there would have been NO Hinduism. They founded two religions and developed one of the most beautiful ancient languages

If you were not so obviously unaware of the historical realities, you might have been criticised fiercely.

As it is, there is no point in getting entertained by you. Might as well laugh at a kindergarten child trying to explain the world to her proud parents. Silly mistakes and omissions are part of the moment of pride.


Ooh, we know about Kali Yuga!



The Indus Valley Civilisation had nothing to do with the immigrants. If you had read up on the Rakhigarhi DNA analysis, you might have understood this.

Glad you had fun whilst it lasted but it's time to respond bhai

While the Rg Veda might have been written in the upper reaches of the Indus and the Yamuna, the Upanishads certainly had little or nothing to do with that region. They were written much later, at a time when the centre of gravity of that culture had shifted to the Gangetic Doab.

Once again, just because the Upanishads were composed near the Gangetic Doab doesn't imply it's their place of origin. The content of Upanishads was available and transmitted by my ancestors who wrote the Rig Veda in the form of oral tradition. Even then, the location of their composition is North India or Punjab specifically, which l do include in Pakistan

( I have said 3-5% Indians are like Pakistanis )

You really need to read up on this subjects. Your ignorance is really shocking. I say this as a teacher, with great regret.


Yes.

They belong to a common profile known as ANI.

Find out. Read. Stop going public and posting before you have equipped yourself.

 

[Krptonite]

Think about it, it's 75 years.

One side came into existence, cause they felt they cannot live with the others. Leave aside the lot that stayed back, for whatever reasons. Talking about them here, will only open unnecessary pandora's box. I am talking facts here.

Now there are two sides, and for 75 years have invested on proving who is right in their birth outlook.

That's nearly three to four generations, give or take in a way.

For any generation to change outlook radically, it cannot happen in their living time. Unless there is any catastrophic change, owing to things like large scale invasions (Which are not going to happen in this nuclear age) / Climatic changes (again unlikely as I don't think we are sitting on any fault lines here) / Devastating wars (to engage in them both should have the wherewithal and you know the answer to that).

The only thing left is Bollywood style change, which we should never get into unless we believe in fantasy being real.

More than changing outlook, you should not forget the support systems built, to keep the outlook going. These support systems in these two sides cases, have many forms and faces. You think they will let their livelihood be threatened, because some imaginary trade brings peace initiative? Let us say they do too, seeing some future danger for existence.

What will the outside support system say? It takes more than inner strength, to keep things going at nation level. These outside support will punish the players at that point, as many deals have been struck based on the outlook. There will be tangible and intangible losses for them, and they sure as hell will not let it happen.

Lastly never forget that, people act on benefits they get. They never do it for lofty notions of greater good, as it's written in books or shown in movies. Forgetting realism, forgetting practicality leads to massive failures.

I am not ruling out the future generations realizing the futility of this conflict, but don't expect any tangible action for next one generation at least or as I feel two in the least. That is how I predict this 50 years period.

PS: 2 to 3 centuries is but a foot note, in the time line of a nation or culture as in our case.

Given the current scenario i would agree with your analysis.

What im postulating from is based on two observations:

1. India cannot project power globally if our resources are being eaten up by our security at our fence. Its a headache, theres no easy solution, and perpetually results in acrimony between us. This cannot go on in perpetuity. War is discussed to death, trade isnt. How could trade be weaponised, that is the premise.

2. Pakistan faces similar per capita economic challenges due to her growing population and insufficient natural resources to provide for them. Long term economic stability is gaining prominence in policy circles and a necessity for its burgeoning citizens.

In such a scenario what would trade look like amd/or what leverage would it give us over each other.

 

[Eskander]

What you just did, no way that is legal.

Not so fast, l was only trolling and half serious

Time to read my response as well

 

[Joe Shearer]

What you just did, no way that is legal.

Too harsh? Drat. I keep getting judgemental.

 

[SecularNationalist]

This thread is a true depiction of the Khatri and Baniya mentality. They will do business with you, and try to exploit your market and resources. On the face, they will be normal to you as traders but from inside they will stay enemies. They will hold a grudge against you.
Baghal mein churi mun mein ram ram.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Think about it, it's 75 years.

One side came into existence, cause they felt they cannot live with the others. Leave aside the lot that stayed back, for whatever reasons. Talking about them here, will only open unnecessary pandora's box. I am talking facts here.

Now there are two sides, and for 75 years have invested on proving who is right in their birth outlook.

That's nearly three to four generations, give or take in a way.

For any generation to change outlook radically, it cannot happen in their living time. Unless there is any catastrophic change, owing to things like large scale invasions (Which are not going to happen in this nuclear age) / Climatic changes (again unlikely as I don't think we are sitting on any fault lines here) / Devastating wars (to engage in them both should have the wherewithal and you know the answer to that).

The only thing left is Bollywood style change, which we should never get into unless we believe in fantasy being real.

More than changing outlook, you should not forget the support systems built, to keep the outlook going. These support systems in these two sides cases, have many forms and faces. You think they will let their livelihood be threatened, because some imaginary trade brings peace initiative? Let us say they do too, seeing some future danger for existence.

What will the outside support system say? It takes more than inner strength, to keep things going at nation level. These outside support will punish the players at that point, as many deals have been struck based on the outlook. There will be tangible and intangible losses for them, and they sure as hell will not let it happen.

Lastly never forget that, people act on benefits they get. They never do it for lofty notions of greater good, as it's written in books or shown in movies. Forgetting realism, forgetting practicality leads to massive failures.

I am not ruling out the future generations realizing the futility of this conflict, but don't expect any tangible action for next one generation at least or as I feel two in the least. That is how I predict this 50 years period.

PS: 2 to 3 centuries is but a foot note, in the time line of a nation or culture as in our case.

Let me get back to you. Busy in the kitchen.

 

[Krptonite]

This thread is a true depiction of the Khatri and Baniya mentality. They will do business with you, and try to exploit your market and resources. On the face, they will be normal to you as traders but from inside they will stay enemies. They will hold a grudge against you.
Baghal mein churi mun mein ram ram.

What stops the proud pathan from outwitting the baniya. You too can try to as you put it exploit the market by being competitive, its called a free market. Definately more satisfying to cause your competitor to close shop than to kill him. One kills the spirit the other just the body

Is it such an inconceivable scenario that a bussiness led by a pathan could forcebly cause his competitors to crash out or being bought under? Must always the Baniya triumph in matters of commerce?

Who said war can be fought only with bullets, trade is war.

 

[waz]

The sanghis are here now and won’t move for years. Their support base grows. That about ends this thread.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Lol, this is clearly not your field of expertise. Let me quote

"Their ( Dravidian) origins are often viewed as being connected with the Indus Valley civilisation,[10][18][19] hence people and language spread east and southwards after the demise of the Indus Valley Civilisation in the early second millennium BCE,[20][21] some propose not long before the arrival of Indo-Aryan speakers,[22] with whom they intensively interacted.[23]Genetically, the Ancient Indus Valley people were composed of an Iranian Farmer- Gatherers and Indian Hunter-Gatherers or "First Indian" -related

On the contrary, this is precisely my area of expertise.

For starters, please bear in mind that there is nothing called a Dravidian race. Dravidian is the name for a collection of languages, still spoken in India.

What you have reproduced above is correct, once the word Dravidian is deleted, and once language is eliminated. There is nothing to prove that the language spoken in the Indus Valley Civilisation was Dravidian, so there is nothing to support the idea that it spread from the IVC eastward and southward.

The interaction with the Indo-Aryan speakers was between the refugees from the IVC, those who were either living in the ruined towns sometime between 1900 BC and 1300 BC, while the Indo-Aryan language speakers - your source correctly calls them speakers of the Indo-Aryan language, not those of the Aryan race - came in around 1500 BC, give or take a couple of centuries.

The source is also correct regarding the general agreement about the genetic composition of the inhabitants of the IVC settlements. However, using the term Iranian Farmer-Gatherer is anomalous; there was no Iran at that time.