Aman Ka Tamasha

[CallSignMaverick]

He doesn't know that Jinnah belonged to an ethnic group that observed Hindu personal law, even while they were Muslim. It was later in life that Jinnah became a 'twelver' Shia.

Most Pakistanis know little or nothing about this remarkable man.

Jinnah's own parents or grandparents were Hindus if I'm not wrong.

Let's not play dumb

We all know Pakistanis are better looking than Indians

The avg Pakistani in Balochistan/KPK is as good looking if not better looking than your best male/female models

And the ugliest Punjabi is better looking than the avg Indian.

And how do you calculate it, is there an index?

He knew the shit Hindus would do to Muslims. He was ahead of his time.... Now in 2023, with Modi in power in India, Hindutva state terrorism and mob violence on rise, we Pakistani Muslims can't thank Jinnah enough

Even we think partition was the best thing to happen, given how the areas separated from India after partition have performed, we couldn't thank the decision better.

 

[Krptonite]

We are 8 pages in and so far, no one has actually discussed the merits of the aforementioned trade. Rather people are debating the validity of your assumption, which only goes to show how far we are from a solution.

I always respected you, but you've kept this thread going for this long and are still trying to keep things from going off the rails. RESPEKT.

Right back at cha, your posts are surprisingly restrained when letting loose is the norm and not only that, but I've found them to be quite reasonable in your assessment and concise, a rare delight.

It's not easy focusing the attention in a single direction, despite the efforts of so many dedicated members to do so otherwise

 

[Joe Shearer]

What "looks"? Stop embarrassing yourself.

He doesn't know that Jinnah belonged to an ethnic group that observed Hindu personal law, even while they were Muslim. It was later in life that Jinnah became a 'twelver' Shia.

Most Pakistanis know little or nothing about this remarkable man.

Jinnah's own parents or grandparents were Hindus if I'm not wrong.

Not exactly. I am ill and bedridden, otherwise I would have found the data for you. His family was converted several generations before Jinnah was born, and their community, the Khojas, were Aga Khani Shias, but apparently followed a distinct personal law (Shias sometimes follow the Jaafri code, not Hanafi, Hambali, Syafii or Maliki.

 

[CallSignMaverick]

He doesn't know that Jinnah belonged to an ethnic group that observed Hindu personal law, even while they were Muslim. It was later in life that Jinnah became a 'twelver' Shia.

Most Pakistanis know little or nothing about this remarkable man.

Not exactly. I am ill and bedridden, otherwise I would have found the data for you. His family was converted several generations before Jinnah was born, and their community, the Khojas, were Aga Khani Shias, but apparently followed a distinct personal law (Shias sometimes follow the Jaafri code, not Hanafi, Hambali, Syafii or Maliki.

no

Hindu antecedent of Muslim Jinnah - Daily Times

Nearly 70 years after his death, Muhammed Ali Jinnah’s portraits continue to adorn places like Aligarh Muslim University (AMU), Bombay High Court and Sabarmati Ashram in India. On the other hand, the Karachi Chamber of Commerce and Industry building’s foundation stone states that it was laid by...

dailytimes.com.pk

 

[KING OF BABARS TRIBE]

Its disappoint see the TROLLS to destroy that serious and interesting Thread and discussion.
I have read a good posts of @Joe Shearer @M. Sarmad @Krptonite @PDF I am not an expert or an knowledgeable persons on this topic and also my English vocabulary is very poor so I Fear if i post a message it will derail this thread more so I wish goodluck to you guys to keep this discussion in a civilized way to get something from it that is beneficial to both sides without the influence of Politics.
But i want to contribute in this meaningful discussion and give it a try with my ILL Understanding:
The thing that i am thinking is the
*) Purpose of Trade and
*)The common Grounds from where it start
*)which Sector either manufacturing or Services or both.
*)the defined principle or laws and regulations that set the volume of trade will happen and at which level it will be terminated with respect to situation of politics or Diplomatic relations.

If this is not a logical points than Ignore it instead of making a fun from it.
THANKS.

 

[FuturePAF]

Painful reading. It rings true, moreover, although I have no data to make a judgement one way or the other.

The CAD, from what I understand is not only the import of oil and gas but also too many finished consumer goods and even foods stuffs. $80 billion imports with not even half as much exports. I’m also not an economist but those numbers can’t be the basis for a sustainable business model.

Opening up to India without first having something worthwhile to export is a recipe for digging a deeper whole. The elite don’t have the right incentives to change. Even overseas Pakistanis don’t have the right incentive to shift from investing in housing to investing in industry.

 

[Krptonite]

Its disappoint see the TROLLS to destroy that serious and interesting Thread and discussion.
I have read a good posts of @Joe Shearer @M. Sarmad @Krptonite @PDF I am not an expert or an knowledgeable persons on this topic and also my English vocabulary is very poor so I Fear if i post a message it will derail this thread more so I wish goodluck to you guys to keep this discussion in a civilized way to get something from it that is beneficial to both sides without the influence of Politics.
But i want to contribute in this meaningful discussion and give it a try with my ILL Understanding:
The thing that i am thinking is the
*) Purpose of Trade and
*)The common Grounds from where it start
*)which Sector either manufacturing or Services or both.
*)the defined principle or laws and regulations that set the volume of trade will happen and at which level it will be terminated with respect to situation of politics or Diplomatic relations.

If this is not a logical points than Ignore it instead of making a fun from it.
THANKS.

Au contraire, you've managed to distill the key points to a few questions. A most rare and admirable feat.

The purpose of trade would be to empower the common consumer. Everthing else would be window dressing. Economies start and end at this point.


The common ground where we could start would be raw resources, energy and infrastructure industries. These three alone can propel and compound trade between us. Micro and small scale industries would also be the biggest beneficiaries. Cost of capital would see a decrease, and decrease bussiness costs.

Laws/agreement could be in mutual agreement, initially to protect small scale industries from being wiped out follow by phased out regulation to direct trade according to the states priorities and interests.

The CAD, from what I understand is not only the import of oil and gas but also too many finished consumer goods and even foods stuffs. $80 billion imports with not even half as much exports. I’m also not an economist but those numbers can’t be the basis for a sustainable business model.

Opening up to India without first having something worthwhile to export is a recipe for digging a deeper whole. The elite don’t have the right incentives to change. Even overseas Pakistanis don’t have the right incentive to shift from investing in housing to investing in industry.

I can empathize with the sentiment but not with the pessimistic outlook.

Greed is a constant and everlasting motivator. You build them the way and they will come. Right now, if there exists an economic impetus to gain profit by exporting it would automatically lead to trade flow.

What you're saying is best handled by policy. A similar example would be the automobile industry in licence raj India, a pathetic old model on sale for 3 decades with no impetus for innovation because no competition, post liberisation you either competed with international brands or you get out. Eventually businesses figured out that producing and selling in India is a lot heck easier and cheaper than doing so elsewhere and then exporting to India. This moved businesses in India.

Just as industries are destroyed, new ones taking advantage of the new economic realities prop up. It is not always so one sided or so pessimistic as you're envisioning. Trade begets more trade and capital flows to the most efficient. Hence governments and businesses are incentivised to innovate and grow which has a happy effect of creating a robust interdependant economy.

The trade between nations you're thinking of is out moded. When businesses enter a new country they either do so as an independent entity or joint venture/ partnership with a local entity, or licensing third party to carry out a part of your operations. It is not as linear as Indian products flooding your markets.

Let us look at a hypothetical, NaiveIdiot Inc. An Indian company wants to sell product chooran in Pakistan. ALL of the 4 modes of entry involves contacting, employing and retaining Pakistani citizens to even enter the market. The resources spent would be invested in pakistan in the form of infrastructure salaries, capital cost, taxes and utility revenue for the states.

Managerial techniques, innovations, knowhow cross over borders without the hassle of formal agreements within the organisation. How do you put a number on that.

Western IT companies outsourcing to India initially hired Indians for lower rung jobs. It then makes economic sense to promote from this layer to the next managerial layer instead of an outsider. Eventually with time all layers of managerial staff move over to locals. This not only has an immensely positive effect on the talent of labour pool but also readies your workforce to work for international roles, upgrading the managerial layer your citizens work in no matter the market or company.

Trade is more than numbers now, its capability building itself.

 

[M. Sarmad]

We are 8 pages in and so far, no one has actually discussed the merits of the aforementioned trade. Rather people are debating the validity of your assumption, which only goes to show how far we are from a solution.

I always respected you, but you've kept this thread going for this long and are still trying to keep things from going off the rails. RESPEKT.

It's quite an accomplishment in itself that even after 8 (now 12) pages, this India-Pakistan thread (with the exception of a few attempts at trolling and derailment) hasn't descended into the usual name-calling and mudslinging that we see all too often. In my recollection, it has been a long time since a serious discussion with Indian participants has sustained a largely civil tone for such a duration. A necessary precondition for constructive and productive discourse is the establishment of a conducive and respectful environment. It is imperative to acknowledge and commend the Indian members who have taken on this initiative, dedicating a considerable amount of time and energy to what may have initially seemed like a futile endeavor.

The subject matter of this thread is complex, and would necessitate extensive research on the available data concerning trade between the two nations, as well as determining how both countries can reap benefits from it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Its disappoint see the TROLLS to destroy that serious and interesting Thread and discussion.
I have read a good posts of @Joe Shearer @M. Sarmad @Krptonite @PDF I am not an expert or an knowledgeable persons on this topic and also my English vocabulary is very poor so I Fear if i post a message it will derail this thread more so I wish goodluck to you guys to keep this discussion in a civilized way to get something from it that is beneficial to both sides without the influence of Politics.
But i want to contribute in this meaningful discussion and give it a try with my ILL Understanding:
The thing that i am thinking is the
*) Purpose of Trade and
*)The common Grounds from where it start
*)which Sector either manufacturing or Services or both.
*)the defined principle or laws and regulations that set the volume of trade will happen and at which level it will be terminated with respect to situation of politics or Diplomatic relations.

If this is not a logical points than Ignore it instead of making a fun from it.
THANKS.

NOTHING wrong with this post!

Please go further. These are points. Can you tell us in simple terms what you visualise for each?

Just a quick good night post before going off to sleep.

Seriously, wouldn't you prefer to read, and to post to a thread like this, rather than spend your time explaining why the other guy's underpants are stained and smell bad?

 

[SecularNationalist]

Most Pakistanis know little or nothing about this remarkable man.

You admire jinnah?

 

[Krptonite]

You admire jinnah?

When one reads of his words and work, how can one not?

Edit: joe explains it so well in the next post.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You admire jinnah?

What a question!

Of course.

Don't get me wrong. I think he got the best bargain that he could for what turned out to be Pakistan, but that in the long term, it was the wrong decision. At that time, with the Congress and his own juniors acting bloody-minded, he made the only choice he could.

Why did you ask that?

All of us who were together in PakTeaHouse were clear that he was an exceptional person. Our views about his decision on partition, and about Pakistan as it turned out after his untimely death, are different subjects.

You admire jinnah?

You were very lucky to have him, you were very unlucky to lose him. We had better luck with our leaders, except with Patel, who too died untimely.

The CAD, from what I understand is not only the import of oil and gas but also too many finished consumer goods and even foods stuffs. $80 billion imports with not even half as much exports. I’m also not an economist but those numbers can’t be the basis for a sustainable business model.

Opening up to India without first having something worthwhile to export is a recipe for digging a deeper whole. The elite don’t have the right incentives to change. Even overseas Pakistanis don’t have the right incentive to shift from investing in housing to investing in industry.

Undoubtedly a point, but I have some thoughts. Maybe tomorrow?

 

[Krptonite]

Textile, engineering products, jewelry, cattle, minerals, agricultural products can be a good start.

Textiles is a major contributor to Pakistan's GDP. However, this industry is bigger than just cloth and commodities. Soft power is more apparent here in this industry. A Pakistani designer house creating and licensing designs would see revenue from sales without any significant capital investment. Your Soap Operas have a wide audience amongst Indian housewives and shape their clothing preferences. Thats just one avenue to take advantage of. You guys are one of the largest exporters of Textile products in direct competition with ours. India is the second largest cotton producer in the world. The economic synergy in the region in textile supply chains and manufacturing has the potential to beat China.

Trade makes for strange bedfellows, Apple buys its amazing displays for its iphones from samsung. It makes more economic sense for Samsung to sell its state of art displays to its main rival as this interdependance offsets its own risks and aligns its competitors rise with its own revenue stream. Competition is good, forces each economic unit in the country to think and utilise resources more effectively else run the risk of being outcompeted.

As for engineering products, the steel demand in India for the next half of this century is going to skyrocket, this would be due to her growing infrastructural needs. Due to the proximity and ease of logistics, given sufficient conditions and resources, You guys could make dozens of steel mills, corrupt the heck out of them, and still make obscene profits catering to the burgeoning demand next door.

You guys make footballs for the world, 70% of the global supply is catered by Sialkot alone. Your products take part in fifa world cups. Your football products in India would mean a world class product at prices affordable for everyone, No other Indian company could compete with that branding. You put some creative marketing twist on it and sell RAW initialled footballs in Pakistan and ISI ones in India and Shit Fam take my money.

Believe you me people will buy them just to kick the heck outta them.

 

[Chute]

The CAD, from what I understand is not only the import of oil and gas but also too many finished consumer goods and even foods stuffs. $80 billion imports with not even half as much exports. I’m also not an economist but those numbers can’t be the basis for a sustainable business model.

Opening up to India without first having something worthwhile to export is a recipe for digging a deeper whole. The elite don’t have the right incentives to change. Even overseas Pakistanis don’t have the right incentive to shift from investing in housing to investing in industry.

80 billion amount (and its impact on CAD situation) is different subject to how its components (origins) are split by country in whichever equilibrium Pakistan economy has with world (governed by some underlying fundamentals which can be unpacked later).

Pakistan would save money (or consume a larger amount using same money - not considering benefits from multiplier effect of consumption) by having India compete with rest of world's exporters on equal footing.

i.e more trade with India would simply rejig some amounts within the 80 billion w.r.t advantages India has relative to other exporters in the case of Pakistan....rather than balloon the total import (since this is constrained by what Pakistan can export be it goods, remittance from labour, services etc and then impact from what is afforded in Curr. A by its decision to borrow from external market in its Cap A).

Tackling why the CAD is so skewed (i.e essentially why Pakistan is not able to export structurally and optimally to meet its import demand at almost any inelasticity setting in the current equilbrium) has to do with these underlying fundamentals.

Selective protectionism will not help that, in fact it just adds extra cost to Pakistan (spending more to buy whichever goods/services on things Indian logistics+capacity could provide cheaper within that 80 billion dollar bill Pakistan forks out to the world in last snapshot measured).

i.e Pakistan "bleeds" this in the skewed Current Acc. as a whole to begin with (by squandering its capacity/potential to make even "low hanging fruit" parts of these imports itself and then try turn into net exporter over time) due to lack of investment (and the public trust that underlies this)

i.e Pro-investment, pro pubic trust reform is separate topic to surface level CAD component split.

(Geo)-Politically its a fine line to walk of course, there are upsides to greater trade regionally and with neighbours (leveraging logistical, proximity, cultural linguistic savings etc)...but they don't always triumph over every downside that exist outside of objective economics.

i.e BD mitigates what it does by its large imports from India only so much (border shootings/deaths, Shah fatass calling BD ppl as termites etc)

India in turn mitigates in turn what it does by large imports from China only so much w.r.t Xi/CCP deciding to go for more nibbling in the various border areas lately.

When things are converted to investment instead of pure trade, then things get mitigated far more (in my opinion) though.

Just like trade is itself a vast improvement over aid.

i.e Rather than giving a man a fish, let him buy it...and better yet teach him to fish in the end (and move on to selling him better worthier things you get into by doing so).

i.e one can study post WW2 Europe on this. i.e why was there a switch from Morgenthau to Marshall and (Western) European economic integration (at great investment and cross-national institutional development rather than just aid and then trade) while the memories of that horrible war was still quite searing and fresh?

Or post WW2 + Chinese civil war East Asia during the cold war (how Japan invested in South Korea and then China later, how Taiwan invested in China etc etc....no matter the serious psychological memories and consequences of the wars in that region.

Vietnam comes to mind recently as well. They are extremely resentful of and suspicious of the PRC (especially since the 1979 war).... but its put aside for the large investment drive the Chinese have now accomplished to mutual benefit....well past the lower-tier trade paradigm I am stuck to for the IND-PAK case. Vietnam and the US as well nowadays (given the Vietnam war).

It will take decades for India to become investment capacity surplus (to other countries in serious way) like China is now (though china is scaling things back drastically - thats another story)....so there is plenty of time to explore things in the low tier trade level first while Pakistan tackles the fundamental reform it needs to get serious investment from world in first place.

 

[Chute]

It's quite an accomplishment in itself that even after 8 (now 12) pages, this India-Pakistan thread (with the exception of a few attempts at trolling and derailment) hasn't descended into the usual name-calling and mudslinging that we see all too often. In my recollection, it has been a long time since a serious discussion with Indian participants has sustained a largely civil tone for such a duration. A necessary precondition for constructive and productive discourse is the establishment of a conducive and respectful environment. It is imperative to acknowledge and commend the Indian members who have taken on this initiative, dedicating a considerable amount of time and energy to what may have initially seemed like a futile endeavor.

The subject matter of this thread is complex, and would necessitate extensive research on the available data concerning trade between the two nations, as well as determining how both countries can reap benefits from it.

Both sides would do well to (in some threads trying to explore deeper phenomena) strip away politics (things that boil to the top in toxic way during a boil/churn) as far as possible to look at some other things (in larger society) as objectively as possible.

For example (wiser) Pakistanis would learn a lot of things by simply identifying Hindutva is toxified identity politics....and simply focus more study on say parts of India that are not impacted as much by this phenomenon and see what keeps their economics ticking along while remaining resilient to Hindutva identity politics (there are identity politics going on sub regionally of course, but nothing of a wretched national "wildfire" scale).

In the end there needs to be recognition of good and bad by the wise people everywhere in world. Good wise people need to learn from other good wise people first thing. That is how toxicity is pushed out collectively long term to mutual benefit.

i.e Why is the best level of public trust predicated on the collective society having as broad and deep as possible a reverence towards the golden rule rather than having weaknesses and fissures to use it selectively and/or sparingly?

It is those weakenesses and fissures that identity politics seeks to exploit, grow and sustain. This is the basic rationale behind secularism (as one example) as it pertains to the govt....that identity politics (that already exist and likely always will exist to some %) need not be aided further by something so large and powerful (and something that should serve society rather than dictate to it)

Only with public trust solid and anchored (w.r.t the system operation and those that will with all their human flaws/imperfections find themselves or work themselves to the top by way of say wealth/power/influence) will the entire society build up say a pro investment culture - since this needs sacrifice and commitment that cannot be done meaningfully without public trust.

This is why Pakistan's investment numbers are a lot worse than they ought to be (i.e even relative to the regional average looking at say IND, BD etc) for example. The people (in the crucial middle layers and well meaning top layers) are sick of the systematic abuse heaped on them....they largely rather keep what they have than risk leveraging it to grow it for larger society, as they feel they (with sufficient reason now) will be betrayed by someone relatively early on something important governing it.

This attitude of fear and distrust needs to be worked upon inside out.

The bhakt goons in India are trying their outside-in approach at long term cost there in the regions they are popular in, you will see that real cost later....but thats another story and whether it can be balanced by non-bhakt parts of India.

Pakistan also has its own version of this it has let set in for a very long time. This region suffers it broadly in the end due to our grievance and scapegoat needs crystallised at top echelons.