Al-Khalid 2

[Arsalan]

Originally Posted by zraver
All known problems have been corrected for at least 2 years now.

sorry dear i cannot agree with you on this, neither can anyone with the knowledge or news from indian army. indian armay have backed out of this project, they are getting the T90 and do not plan to induct more arjun than some 124 that were ordered as the first batch, reports say that this decision by the IA my hit a sever blow on the indian Tank X project as well!

huh? Cross country the Arjun will out run the AK. The suspension of the Arjun is a generation newer.. In fact I think the Arjun's set up is superior to the Abrams in that regards. Flat out road speed is not how to judge a tanks speed. Rather it should be based on the highest possible speed across average terrain while still being able to fire and hit a target doing the same. here the tank with the best suspension wins.

July 2005
During the summer trials in 2005, it was reported that the Arjun suffered major problems with its main gun sight, suspension system, and fire control system. Moreover, engine failures occurred commonly in temperatures averaging 55-60 degrees Celsius.

a plywood target isn't shooting back to kill, moving at high speed and popping smoke. If it ever comes to war, it will be crew against crew first, the tank is just a force multiplier the crew is the weapon.

my friend, the tank have fire control system and hunter killer ability making it equally effective while moving in rough terrain and the target is alsom on the move!!

if it cannot load a round that can defeat the Arjun's armor there is a major problem, if on the reverse the Arjun's gun can defeat the front of an AK. Both tanks have a gun power problem in my book so call it a tie. I don't know about you, but as an American I don't want a fair fight, I want the other guy to be so outgunned that when I stomp on him his ancestors and decedents groan with pain.

what do you mean friend!!
who said that AlKhalid round will have no effect on the great arjun!
dear i was pointing to the fact that arjun have proved a complete failuer in hot and cold weather,( i dont know where to use this tank, i guess indian will wait for pleasent weather condition in order to get the arjun effective)

dear i didnt mean any offense to your post! all i want is that people get the right information from this forum, you will never see me boasting about JF17 superior than the indian Su30 just out of patriotism but yes, AlKhalid is better than the Arjun, rather there is no point in comparing the two so it is better to say that it is even on par if not better than the russian T90 indian are having!
with T90 AlKhalid of course is a bit down coze of its protection but adding ERA will make the competetion at level grounds!
alos remember the fact that PA is able to field 3 to 4 AK for same amount of money that india will require for one T90!!

regards!

 

[Penguin]

Ukraine make better tanks then Russian, during USSR production tank production units were in Ukraine. Even Chinese follow Ukrainian lines.

So? Nobody said Ukraine produced poor tanks. That's not the issue. Should all the investments in the Al Khalid I platform be abandoned by switching to a new Ukrainian model? Is that wise? That would include retooling the factory in Pakistan for a totally different tank, if it would be produced in Pakistan at all, with very little systems commonality with both Al Khalid I and Al Zarrar.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

All Arjun related posts have been moved here:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4345-arjun-news-discussions.html

Please continue with your Arjun related responses there.

In addition, try not to post images unless you want to use them to validate/illustrate arguments related to the thread topic.

 

[zraver]

my friend, the tank have fire control system and hunter killer ability making it equally effective while moving in rough terrain and the target is alsom on the move!!

You need to learn about tanks

Hydro[pnuematic is superior to torsion bar- it can handle rougher terrain at a higher speed. Given the nature of the AK's suspencion it probably has a fire on the move capability of around 12-35km/h any slower or faster and the vibration messes with the aim. The Arjun should be 0-45km/h+

Hunter-Killer does not improve the tanks ability to hit a target.

what do you mean friend!!
who said that AlKhalid round will have no effect on the great arjun!

The autoloader in the AK is a direct copy of the system used by the T-72. This limits overall penetrator length to about 560mm. This means the best the AK can hope for in the way of KE penetration is 600mm of RHAe, maybe 700mm if Pakistan can do what the Soviets and Russians can't. 700mm won't cut it vs the Arjun or T-90S and is a peashooter vs the T-90M

 

[Contrarian]

Zraver, would greatly appreciate if you could give a detailed difference between the T-90S and T-90M.

As far as i have read, mostly articles just mention that T-90M is a 'radically modified' variant of the T-90S and is "1.5" times more 'effective' than the T-90S.

 

[TWMSR]

Hello
What is Al-Khalid powerpack? All-Ukrainian powerpack, both 6TD-2 engine plus transmission, or Ukraininan is only an engine, and transmission is ESM500?
If transmission would be changed in case of AK-2, it would be changed to which one? Some new model, made in Pakistan?

 

[zraver]

Zraver, would greatly appreciate if you could give a detailed difference between the T-90S and T-90M.

As far as i have read, mostly articles just mention that T-90M is a 'radically modified' variant of the T-90S and is "1.5" times more 'effective' than the T-90S.

T-90M uses Indian Kachan ceramic armor on place of the Russian ceramic inserts, it has the new kacktus heavy ERA which is supposed to be superior to the Kontak-5 heavy ERA. Upgraded western/Russian hybrid FCS, more powerful engine, environmental controls and a swiss APS

The addition of the APS and kacktus means Pakistan doesn't really have a round that will touch it. It was claimed the K-5 ERA reduced the effectiveness of sabots bu 30%, the kacktus should do even better. The APS should be able to defeat Pakistan's US supplied TOW missiles. If the gun has been supplied with the Russian's new 3BM42M or 3BM46 they have a powerful round to go with the tank.

 

[JK!]

Zraver,

based on what you have said above what modifications or upgrades should Pakistan consider for Al Khalid in order to counter T90M?

 

[zraver]

Zraver,

based on what you have said above what modifications or upgrades should Pakistan consider for Al Khalid in order to counter T90M?

A redesigned turret using a French style autoloader and a L55 120mm NATO standard gun with US supplied M829A3. But short of that, and thats not happening there is not much that can be done. I don't even have much faith in the M829A3 to deal with the tanks armor after the Kaktus HERA. The world needs a gun revolution. One thing Pakistan might consider is getting the Ukrainian HERA for the AK and T-80's so the PA can create a gun/power stand off. Plus getting Helos that can fire the Hellfire which is big enough to defeat any tank.

 

[Penguin]

A redesigned turret using a French style autoloader and a L55 120mm NATO standard gun with US supplied M829A3. But short of that, and thats not happening there is not much that can be done. I don't even have much faith in the M829A3 to deal with the tanks armor after the Kaktus HERA. The world needs a gun revolution. One thing Pakistan might consider is getting the Ukrainian HERA for the AK and T-80's so the PA can create a gun/power stand off. Plus getting Helos that can fire the Hellfire which is big enough to defeat any tank.

Considering that Al Khalid was developed not only with Chinese but also with a lot of Ukrainian input, and that Ukraine has readily available a solution for installing a western style 120mm/L50 cannon and bustle mounted autoloader onto T-series vehicles, I'm sure it wouldnt be too difficult to come up with a 120mm armed Al Khalid version on relatively short notice.

 

[zraver]

Considering that Al Khalid was developed not only with Chinese but also with a lot of Ukrainian input, and that Ukraine has readily available a solution for installing a western style 120mm/L50 cannon and bustle mounted autoloader onto T-series vehicles, I'm sure it wouldnt be too difficult to come up with a 120mm armed Al Khalid version on relatively short notice.

But you would still need a penetrator designed to withstand the sheer effects of HERA. The M829A3 can defeat Kontakt-5, but the Kaktus was designed to defeat the M829A3 and like penetrators. A typicla NATO standard round like the German DM-53 won't work.

 

[Penguin]

But you would still need a penetrator designed to withstand the sheer effects of HERA. The M829A3 can defeat Kontakt-5, but the Kaktus was designed to defeat the M829A3 and like penetrators. A typicla NATO standard round like the German DM-53 won't work.

Of course. But at least you wouldn't need a fully new redesigned turret. The money saved can be spend on developing or procuring suitable advanced ammunitions.

 

[hj786]

Hi Zraver, can I ask what you know about the Ukrainian Kombat ATGM? There has been reports of plans to integrate the Kombat ATGM on the Al-Zarrar (it should be already integrated on the T-80UD). I'm wondering if it should be integrated on the Al-Khalid. Could it capable of penetrating the latest heavy ERA on the T-90 and Arjun?

It obviously has to be small enough to fit in the AK's autoloader, but according to the article below:

"The Combat laser-guided 125 mm gun-launched munition consists of two parts, the pusher and the actual missile, both of which are stowed in the automatic loader of the T-80UD/T-84 located below the turret. This first loads the missile and then the pusher.

"Total weight of the round, for example the pusher and missile, is 30.4 kg"

So I guess the missile itself would be the same size as a short-rod penetrator round. Can it pack enough punch?

Link to Jane's article on the Combat:
ARTEM Combat 125 mm laser-guided tank projectile (Ukraine) - Jane's Armour and Artillery Upgrades

 

[zraver]

Hi Zraver, can I ask what you know about the Ukrainian Kombat ATGM? There has been reports of plans to integrate the Kombat ATGM on the Al-Zarrar (it should be already integrated on the T-80UD). I'm wondering if it should be integrated on the Al-Khalid. Could it capable of penetrating the latest heavy ERA on the T-90 and Arjun?

It obviously has to be small enough to fit in the AK's autoloader, but according to the article below:

"The Combat laser-guided 125 mm gun-launched munition consists of two parts, the pusher and the actual missile, both of which are stowed in the automatic loader of the T-80UD/T-84 located below the turret. This first loads the missile and then the pusher.

"Total weight of the round, for example the pusher and missile, is 30.4 kg"

So I guess the missile itself would be the same size as a short-rod penetrator round. Can it pack enough punch?

Link to Jane's article on the Combat:
ARTEM Combat 125 mm laser-guided tank projectile (Ukraine) - Jane's Armour and Artillery Upgrades

A real basic rule of thumb is round diameter x 3 for first generation 5 for second generation, and x 7 for third generation HEAT rounds= penetration v RHA/RHAe 125x 7= 889mm RHAe actual performance might be above or below this but not by much. So no, the tube fired ATGM is not an overly serious threat to modern tanks from the front. The advantages for the round are its long range, the ability to hit IFV/s bunkers and the unlucky helicopter at long range and if an enemy tank is profiled side-on even the heaviest of MBT's.

Now when tube fired ATGM's get a top down attack ability they will be able to kill anythign that does not have top cover and an APS.

 

[Penguin]

Aside from the catastrophic or complete kill, which render the tank both unusable and unrepairable, there is always the mobility-kill because engines, tracks, or running gear get damaged, the firepower-kill because the tank is no longer able to function e.g. because gun or optics/optronics damaged or destroyed and the mission-kill which are all other reasons why the tank can no longer function as intended.

THe link on that gun-fored 125mm ATGW says:

The Combat missile has a maximum range of 5,000 m and is fitted with a tandem High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT) warhead to defeat targets fitted with ERA. According to the manufacturer this will penetrate at least 750 mm of armour protected by ERA.

Now, does that mean 750mm total (including ERA) or 750mm behind the ERA (so after that has been penetrated)?