Air Superiority fighters comparision and requirement analysis.

[SBD-3]

Well as they say, you need to take a different path to get ahead,thats precisely what russians have always done.They are known for making planes which can counter its american rival. They never make similar aircrafts. And thats the reason for their success.

FGFA compromises on VLO to carry more ammunition, more powerful radar and greater range. But again all these are speculations.

This is where the yankees lead....strike AC does not necessarily need to be a bomb truck...it is just like a special ops troops....you have a dedicated target and may only need a smart bomb!....lets say that you want to neutralize an enemy Airfield....you can either take aircraft loaded with bombs and detroy each and every single thing standing...or just take out runways and control tower and return..job well done in both cases...VLO gives the advantage that they never know you're coming unless you give them a punch in *** and a good bye kiss. This is the difference between Yankee and Russian approach

 

[Ras]

he is not talking about TVC ma man.....the flaps on the tail of F-22 help to reduce IR signatures...I saw a video on discovery about F-22 where they explained it

Yup..but the engine because of the flaps can only do 2d TVC. The PAK_FA can do 3D TVC. Russians think that 3D TVC is a better asset than putting the flaps in there.

 

[jha]

This is where the yankees lead....strike AC does not necessarily need to be a bomb truck...it is just like a special ops troops....you have a dedicated target and may only need a smart bomb!....lets say that you want to neutralize an enemy Airfield....you can either take aircraft loaded with bombs and detroy each and every single thing standing...or just take out runways and control tower and return..job well done in both cases...VLO gives the advantage that they never know you're coming unless you give them a punch in *** and a good bye kiss. This is the difference between Yankee and Russian approach

Most probably these will be used in strike role or, SEAD ops..
Thats where better radars and ammunition come into play . FGFA can easily carry 4 k-100 and 4 Brahmos. So, before any enemy aircraft senses the FGFA it will be blown to ashes...and 4 smart bombs will do their own job.
But again thats the diff. of opinion and diff. in approaches..

 

[ptldM3]

hmmmm-- some rumours going on nowadays.....

Russia's T50 tail totally unstealthy compared to US's F-22

not sure if i can post the link - mods can delete it , if required

Word of advice, next time don't use someones quote from an online forum as a source.

The fanboy who wrote that appearently forgot about the F-35 and its nozzles, but since its American made it has ammunity

Also, Sukhoi has also said that the heat signature for the T-50 is low.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Yup..but the engine because of the flaps can only do 2d TVC. The PAK_FA can do 3D TVC. Russians think that 3D TVC is a better asset than putting the flaps in there.

The russians also think that they can make the fuselage strong enough
to take that kind of beating.

Historically Soviets have been better at crafting better and more stronger metal.

I suppose the same mentality continues.

 

[ptldM3]

The russians also think that they can make the fuselage strong enough
to take that kind of beating.

Historically Soviets have been better at crafting better and more stronger metal.

I suppose the same mentality continues.

Both use the similar materials, aluminum, titanium, and various composites. However, historically US aircraft have used a higher percentage of things such as titanium.

 

[anathema]

Word of advice, next time don't use someones quote from an online forum as a source.

The fanboy who wrote that appearently forgot about the F-35 and its nozzles, but since its American made it has ammunity

Also, Sukhoi has also said that the heat signature for the T-50 is low.

ptldM3 - Ignore the F35, but the open nozzles do invite heat seeking missiles.

I am not sure if PAKFA has S shaped inlets for engines -- that may help in covering up some radiation although not entirely. I did read this sometime back during interview with Putin that PakFa has lot of work ahead and that included making engines stealthy...

I am not sure if Russians can achive that since making a stealthy exhaust would curtail its TVC (it would become 2d TVC) ...or else it has to be a radically new exhaust...

 

[Ras]

This is where the yankees lead....strike AC does not necessarily need to be a bomb truck...it is just like a special ops troops....you have a dedicated target and may only need a smart bomb!....lets say that you want to neutralize an enemy Airfield....you can either take aircraft loaded with bombs and detroy each and every single thing standing...or just take out runways and control tower and return..job well done in both cases...VLO gives the advantage that they never know you're coming unless you give them a punch in *** and a good bye kiss. This is the difference between Yankee and Russian approach

That is because historically the Soviet Union used SAM's to protect her airspace which means escaping the radars was crucial for Western aircraft in case they needed to bomb Soviet territory.

On the other hand the western nations relied mainly on aircrafts to intercept incoming air raids instead of SAM's so Soviet planes were not that bothered to hide from radar,they were designed to be fast and highly agile to fight with other jets.

 

[ptldM3]

ptldM3 - Ignore the F35, but the open nozzles do invite heat seeking missiles.

I am not sure if PAKFA has S shaped inlets for engines -- that may help in covering up some radiation although not entirely. I did read this sometime back during interview with Putin that PakFa has lot of work ahead and that included making engines stealthy...

I am not sure if Russians can achive that since making a stealthy exhaust would curtail its TVC (it would become 2d TVC) ...or else it has to be a radically new exhaust...

Yes open nozzles do give of a stronger heat signature. However, there are other techniques to reduce heat signature, such as having cooler burning engines. Either way all aircraft give off a heat signature even if their engines are turned off, granted they are traveling fast enough.

Also the T-50 doesn't have the S shape inlet, atleast not yet, and it is possible to have 3D TVC out of a setup similiar to the F-22.

 

[Manticore]

Word of advice, next time don't use someones quote from an online forum as a source.

The fanboy who wrote that appearently forgot about the F-35 and its nozzles, but since its American made it has ammunity

Also, Sukhoi has also said that the heat signature for the T-50 is low.

my post started with the word 'rumours' -- the qoute depicted that the words were not mine.-- and i wanted informative discussion and possible paf strategey if it has greater signature etc

- Russia's T50 tail totally unstealthy compared to US's F-22' was the topic -- have you some info regarding there comparisons? [as its a comparisons thread]

so you are saying that pakfa is no where near the technology of f22 , rather it should be compared with downgraded f35?
'

 

[ptldM3]

my post started with the word 'rumours' -- the qoute depicted that the words were not mine.-- and i wanted informative discussion and possible paf strategey if it has greater signature etc

Without getting into alot of details:

Heat signatures can come from both the front and rear hemisphere, the rear obviously gives off a stronger signature. However, with the situational awarness of 5th generation and '4.5' generation aircraft you can bet that no aggressor will get close enough or have the luxury of getting behind a 5th generation aircraft where they can exploit the heat signature from the rear. Either way a conventional fighters will likely be shot down before it can detect any heat signature.

- Russia's T50 tail totally unstealthy compared to US's F-22' was the topic -- have you some info regarding there comparisons?

I tend to stay away from childish comparisons, even more so with the pak-fa, and this is because its just a prototype. Moreover, much of the aircraft is still classified, the same holds true for the F-22.

so you are saying that pakfa is no where near the technology of f22 , rather it should be compared with downgraded f35?
'

No i never said anything of the sort. The pak-fa is the pak-fa and as so it will do what it is designed to do.

 

[anathema]

Yes open nozzles do give of a stronger heat signature. However, there are other techniques to reduce heat signature, such as having cooler burning engines. Either way all aircraft give off a heat signature even if their engines are turned off, granted they are traveling fast enough.

Also the T-50 doesn't have the S shape inlet, atleast not yet, and it is possible to have 3D TVC out of a setup similiar to the F-22.

Can you please explain ?

 

[ptldM3]

Can you please explain ?

There are many way to acheive TVC, lets look at the following methods:



You can also engineer a pivot system where to where 2 demensional nozzles pivot in a full axis, instead of just a Y axis.

 

[Ras]

There are many way to acheive TVC, lets look at the following methods:



You can also engineer a pivot system where to where 2 demensional nozzles pivot in a full axis, instead of just a Y axis.

The Russian jets typically use the "movable nozzle" method if I am not wrong. That is how I believe it is on the PAK-FA too so that eliminates any way to put the F-22 flaps on top of the exhaust.

 

[johnny boy]

hmmm interesting analysis