Air Force Question Thread

[showstopper]

wait. i don't think i get it. please pardon my apparant thickheadedness.

 

[Manticore]

what is the recent state of f16 block 52 delivery to paf... has u.s turned it down ?

 

[zombie:-)]

what is the recent state of f16 block 52 delivery to paf... has u.s turned it down ?

yes there are reports of it on other threads on this forum

 

[MZUBAIR]

yes there are reports of it on other threads on this forum

Reference Please

 

[SSGPA1]

Why Israel shut down it's LAVI project?

I think Lavi was initiated to transfer the latest know how to China at substantial cost.

Israel knew that lobbies in the US would never let them become a competitor in fighter jet manufacturing so they started the project and under anticipated pressure they stopped the project.

In order to recover the cost, Isrealis utilized their lobbying muscles in the US and convinced all players that it is okay to sell this technology to China because it is not advanced.

Israeli AF was going after F-35 JSF therefore it is not a loss for them in any ways. In addition they made a great deal of money and an improved relationship with China.

Jews know how to make money

 

[qsaark]

Is there a proof that Lavi designs were sold to China? As far as my understanding goes, LAVI project was not shelved because of the US pressure (I live in US and know all too well who presurrises whom) but because it was financially not feasible to go ahead with that project. Besides, you want to have your own Fighters if there is a fear of an embargo (they always had such fears from France and Britain). Israel has no such fears from US. Also important to remeber is, to get the most advanced fighters from US, they dont even have to pay. The fact of the matter is, US actually helped financing the LAVI. The total cost for the development and production of the Lavi was around US$6.4 billion in 1983, of which around 60% was funded by the United States and 40% by the Israeli government. One of the major reason besides the availability of the realiable and superior aircrafts (F-16s/F-15s) of the cancellation was the final cost. Some community welfare organizations in Israel also blasted the spending associated with the Lavi as a bottomless pit, and contrasted it with dwindling expenditure on health and education.

Lavi was incepted primarily for the close air support (CAS) and battlefield air interdiction (BAI) mission with a secondary air-defense mission as a potential replacement for A-4s, F-4s and Kafir C-2. People try to compare LAVI with F-16 which is not a good comparison. The Lavi was rather smaller and lighter, with a less powerful powerplant, and a lower thrust-to-weight ratio. Even though on paper, the Lavi was becoming similar (not exactly alike) to the F-16 and F-18 (as per Israeli sources). In reality, however, Israel possessed neither the technology nor the capital required for such a project. This is basically a BS that IAI Lavi was an indigenous effort of Israel. It was not, actually the whole program was relying heavily on the US assistance. Even if the program was not cancelled, in actuality Lavi was going to be an American fighter made in Israel. And that was the reason why so many US companies got upset about the whole idea. Export of Lavi is another matter (which most Israelis claim to be the major reason of the cancellation). Owing to such high investment (both capital and technological) US could always ask Israel not to export the Lavi but to keep it for Israeli defence forces or to sell it only to the 'US approved' foreign customers. Afterall, US sold its F-16s, F-18s, F-15s to several countries. Besides, Israel didn't have the required infrastructure in place to manufacture the large number of aircrafts for the export market. So I dont think that IAI Lavi was posing a real threat to the sales of the US warplanes.

 

[Patriot]

Yeah, from what i've heard Israel halted the project because of US pressure.

 

[Rehmat]

Yeah, from what i've heard Israel halted the project because of US pressure.

What pressure? Have you not heard Sharon - I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it —Ariel Sharon to Shimon Peres, October 3rd, 2001, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

Furthermore, more tha half of Obama's administration consists of dual citizen Jews and pro-Israel Zionists.

 

[PeaceForAll]

First Generation Fighters (circa 1945 to 1955)

The first generation of fighters probably consists of those that appeared at the beginning of the Jet Age, starting late in World War II up through the Korean War. These planes were the first to be powered by turbojet engines, but were otherwise largely similar in capability to the older piston-engined fighter they replaced. These early jet engines were limited in thrust such that the fighters could not typically operate above the speed of sound. These first generation fighters were not often equipped with radar. Their armaments also generally consisted of older technologies like conventional guns, dumb bombs, and rockets since guided missiles were still largely experimental.

First generation fighters: MiG-15 and F-86 Sabre
First generation fighters: MiG-15 and F-86 Sabre

Perhaps the most representative fighters of that era are the F-86 Sabre and MiG-15, the two planes that fought most fiercely over the skies of Korea. Other fighters in this generation include:

Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe
Heinkel He 162 Salamander
Messershmitt Me 162 Komet
Gloster Meteor
de Havilland Vampire
de Havilland Venom
Hawker Siddeley/Armstrong Whitworth Sea Hawk
Supermarine Attacker
Supermarine Swift
Lockheed P-80 (F-80) Shooting Star
Republic F-84 Thunderjet / Thunderstreak
North American F-86 Sabre
Northrop F-89 Scorpion
Lockheed F-94 Starfire
McDonnell FH-1 Phantom
Vought F6U Pirate
Vought F7U Cutlass
North American FJ (F-1) Fury
McDonnell F2H (F-2) Banshee
McDonnell F3H (F-3) Demon
Douglas F4D (F-6) Skyray
Grumman F9F (F-9) Panther / Cougar
Douglas F3D (F-10) Skyknight
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-15
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-17
Lavochkin La-15
Yakovlev Yak-15
Yakovlev Yak-17
Yakovlev Yak-23
Dassault Ouragan
Dassault Mystère
Saab J21R
Saab J29
Saab Lansen
Avro Canada CF-100 Canuck

Second Generation Fighters (circa 1955 to 1960)

The factors that most epitomized fighters of the second generation were higher speed, radar, and use of the first guided air-to-air missiles. Many of these aircraft incorporated lessons learned in Korea to improve overall performance and combat effectiveness. These aircraft were the first fighters capable of maintaining supersonic speeds in level flight. Their designs also took advantage of new electronics technologies making radar small enough to be carried aboard. Similarly, advances in guided missile development allowed this new weapon to begin replacing the gun as the primary offensive weapon for the first time in fighter history.

Second generation fighters: The Century Series
Second generation fighters: The Century Series (F-100, F-101, F-102, F-104)

Best representing this class of fighters is the American "Century Series." Other members of the second generation include:

North American F-100 Super Sabre
McDonnell F-101 Voodoo
Convair F-102 Delta Dagger
Lockheed F-104 Starfighter
Republic F-105 Thunderchief
Convair F-106 Delta Dart
Vought F8U (F-8) Crusader
Grumman F11F (F-11) Tiger
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-19
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-21
Sukhoi Su-9 / Su-11
Yakovlev Yak-25
BAC Lightning
de Havilland Sea Vixen
Gloster Javelin
Hawker Hunter
Supermarine Scimitar
Dassault Etendard
Dassault Mirage III
Saab Draken

Third Generation Fighters (circa 1960 to 1970)

Many of the fighters of the third generation were those that served in the Vietnam War, particularly in the latter stages of the conflict. Most of these planes were the first to be designed specifically as multi-purpose fighters capable of performing both air defense and ground attack missions.

Third generation fighter: F-4 Phantom II
Third generation fighter: F-4 Phantom II

Perhaps the best representative of this generation of fighters is the F-4 Phantom II, which entered service not only with the US Navy, Marines, and Air Force, but also with a number of foreign militaries. Other examples of third generation fighters include:

McDonnell Douglas F4H (F-4) Phantom II
Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighter / Tiger II
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-23
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-25
Sukhoi Su-15
Sukhoi Su-17/20/22
Tupolev Tu-28P
Yakovlev Yak-28
British Aerospace Harrier
Dassault Mirage F.1
Dassault Super Etendard
Shenyang J-8II

Fourth Generation Fighters (circa 1970 to 1990)

The next generation continued the trend towards multi-role fighters equipped with increasingly sophisticated avionics and weapon systems. These fighters also began emphasizing maneuverability rather than speed to succeed in air-to-air combat.

Fourth generation fighters: F-16s in formation with a MiG-29
Fourth generation fighters: F-16s in formation with a MiG-29

Good representatives of this class of fighter include the American F-16 and Soviet MiG-29. Other members of the fourth generation include:

Grumman F-14 Tomcat
McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle
General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon
McDonnell Douglas F-18 Hornet
McDonnell Douglas AV-8B Harrier II
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-29
Mikoyan Gurevich MiG-31
Sukhoi Su-27
Yakovlev Yak-38
Panavia Tornado
Dassault Mirage 2000
Saab Viggen
Mitsubishi F-2
AIDC Ching-Kuo
Chengdu J-10
Hindustan LCA

4.5 Generation Fighters (circa 1990 to 2000)

The term "4.5 generation" is also sometimes seen refering to more recent fourth generation fighters. These aircraft are generally seen as retaining the same basic characteristics of fourth generation planes but with enhanced capabilities provided by more advanced technologies that might be seen in fifth generation fighters. Good examples are the F-18 Super Hornet, Eurofighter Typhoon, and Dassault Rafale. All three make use of advanced avionics to improve mission capability and limited stealth characteristics to reduce visibility when compared to older fourth generation aircraft. However, none is considered advanced enough to be classified as a fifth generation fighter (though arguments can be made for the Typhoon and perhaps the Rafale).

4.5 generation fighter: F-18 Super Hornet
4.5 generation fighter: F-18 Super Hornet

Other members of this generation include:

Boeing F-18E/F Super Hornet
Sukhoi Su-30
Sukhoi Su-33
Sukhoi Su-35
Eurofighter Typhoon
Saab Gripen
Dassault Rafale

Fifth Generation Fighters (circa 2000 to ?)

The technologies that best epitomize fifth generation fighters are advanced integrated avionics systems that provide the pilot with a complete picture of the battlespace and the use of low observable "stealth" techniques. The F-22 and F-35 are the only fifth generation fighters developed to date, but Russia hopes that technologies being created by the Mikoyan Gurevich MFI and Sukhoi Su-47 may make them competitors in that market.

Fifth generation fighter: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter
Fifth generation fighter: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

It only seems logical to name the F-35 as the ultimate example of this generation since the Joint Strike Fighter was the original inspiration for this entire subject. Other examples include:

Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
Lockheed Martin F-35

Keep in mind that these categories are merely one opinion and are not intended to be official in any way. Also note that it is not always easy to classify a particular aircraft. The long-lived F-4 and MiG-21, for example, could fall under second, third, or fourth generation depending on which variant or upgrade is considered. Nevertheless, we feel that the above list provides a good overview of the evolution of jet-powered fighters that should be useful to those interested in combat aircraft.


link : Aerospaceweb.org | Ask Us - Fighter Generations

 

[SSGPA1]

As far as my understanding goes, LAVI project was not shelved because of the US pressure (I live in US and know all too well who presurrises whom) but because it was financially not feasible to go ahead with that project. ... So I dont think that IAI Lavi was posing a real threat to the sales of the US warplanes.

"A slim majority of the Cabinet was finally persuaded to abandon building the Lavi as a result of pressure from the Reagan Administration and recommendations from the Israeli Finance Ministry, the Defense Ministry and Israel's army and air force. "

source: http://http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE4DA173AF932A0575BC0A961948260

 

[SSGPA1]

... One of the major reason besides the availability of the realiable and superior aircrafts (F-16s/F-15s) of the cancellation was the final cost[/U]. Some community welfare organizations in Israel also blasted the spending associated with the Lavi as a bottomless pit, and contrasted it with dwindling expenditure on health and education.

... Besides, Israel didn't have the required infrastructure in place to manufacture the large number of aircrafts for the export market. So I dont think that IAI Lavi was posing a real threat to the sales of the US warplanes.

"Some $1.3 billion of U.S. aid went into the Lavi before alarm bells went off in Washington: why was the U.S. paying Israel to develop and produce an aircraft that would compete on the international arms market with planes produced by its own companies and put American workers out of their jobs? The Reagan administration, averse to putting pressure on Israel over issues such as stopping settlement construction in the West Bank, leaned on the Israeli government, which duly caved in: the Lavi project was cancelled in 1987."

source: Has Israel’s U.S.-Funded Lavi Jet Been Reborn as China’s J-10 Warplane?

 

[SSGPA1]

Is there a proof that Lavi designs were sold to China? ...

There is no hard evidence bit people who know the project and Israeli source claim the sale and ToT. Here is one Israeli source:

"20 years later, in January 2007, on the other side of the globe, China proudly presented its Chengdu J-10 fighter jet. According to international aviation experts, the Chinese jet bares striking similarities to the 1980’s Israeli Lavi fighter. They say that’s because Israelis sold the jet’s technology to China."

Link: Google Image Result for http://quicklink.all.googlepages.com/chengdu_03.jpg

 

[Luftwaffe]

Have a question..Is Egypt going to MLU its not sure 195 or 220 F-16s to blk 50/52+

 

[zombie:-)]

Reference Please

hmm the JF17 may prove to be fine when backed by the AWACs, but still it is not fully operational and it wil be a new system, i do not want to relay on this plane until its second batch comes with some major modification!

and yes sorry for the FC20, no question on its abilities, speciall keeping in view that unlike the Russian and eurpean who always boast about there machine the Chines always seem to be quite silent about there product and always present them as a downgraded or atleast not fully describe its potential

for the F16,, it seems to be over n out sir
the deal do not seems to be finalized ever!!!


May Allah Help Us!!

now you can THANK me too Mr.hj786
here is the reference

 

[Hasnain2009]

@ zombie
arsalanaslam also said JF-17 is better then LCA, reference is here,
http://www.defence.pk/forums/308956-post227.html

i was just pointing to the fact that there have been many problems that we have been listening to with the LCA, and now when it will be developed the real picture will come out but since this is not the case it is, i think, pointless to compare the two i-e the JF17 and the LCA!

one thing is for sure and you will also agree to it, the JF 17 is among the few planes in the world with huge potential for modifications, it can be refitted with quite a few number of new engines ad avionic packs without the need for a redesign! that is what makes it a better AC. we can easily change it accorging to our requirments and as we have money in hand, similarly for the export market this is one big plus point for the JF17,

once we start producing them om mass scale and export them, PAF can use the Revenue to turn it into a more superior platform. it is quite somewhat similar to the F16 project! you see generations gap between the first block F16z and the current Block 52 or Block60!! all this was made possible by the export orders!

i hope JF17 turns out to be one hell of a plane
May Allah Help Us!!!

I will thank u if u are agree with arsalan!!