Air Commodore (R) Kaiser Tufail explains the Su-35S offer.

[Thəorətic Muslim]

Sukhoi serves us well - RUSSIA has 100% good history for military order deliveries

Just keep in mind that the Russians sold out the Iraqis in 91.

 

[Viking 63]

This is just hear and see situation, nothing has been offered , selling SU-35 to Pakistan is a major political decision by Russia which if ever made will be long time in future.

 

[Kakaspai]

Somebody need to stop corruption, $$$ will follow.

Those whose responsibility is to stop corruption are corrupt

 

[Kakaspai]

Meray bahi, I agree with you but you also have to lock to what it will be facing in future. And we have to think accordingly.

Bhai this is exactly what I am saying

 

[war&peace]

Su-35 could be a distraction. We can get similar planes anytime from China. Today cost (operational & fleet replacement) matters the most. We should concentrate on producing JF-17 in such numbers, which would confuse our enemies, +1,000. With Su-35 we could be lost in platforms.

Today PAF is doing great, MA. Su-35 could slow us down. We shouldn't forget that China = 2 (US & EU), which is on tech frontier. Why are then we going for distraction and exposing ourselves to risk with Russia too much? It might have corrupting influence - kickbacks, which comes with expensive projects. Today cost is everything and we are lucky in terms of JF-17. That's why people are really scared.

Isn't Su-35 a glorified Su-27? Our current connections with Russia are important but not to upset, confuse, and distract our own strategy. (First post on defence.pk)

PAF has always maintained a qualitative edge. A large number of lower quality aircrafts means just a defensive role. We need a certain number of aircrafts that can go deep in enemy's territory and strike it and take down enemy aircrafts and complete the mission successfully. Numbers has never been a PAF game and we should not focus too much on numbers. A team that plays on front foot always has more chance of winning and the team that plays on back foot can either loose or tie at best.

 

[PWFI]

@Horus us he also explained a capability of SU-35:
"Actually, the Su-35 has a rear looking radar in the tail cone, between the two exhausts. On seeing a blip, the pilot fires the front-facing missiles, which are the directed by the fire control computer through data link to seek a firing solution to the rear. After launch, the missile goes straight for a second or two, then starts turning for the target being painted by the rear radar."

 

[MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n]

So far the only diplomatic answer i got was that......''PAF's original requirement for 40 Block-52s is still pending which has to be met with same kind or similar capability platform''iiii
The offices have been closed since Thursday, will try to dig up more in next few days.

so nice that u took out time 2 reply ; any further info. shall be wellcomed ...

 

[Black Richi Rich]

as much as i want to see SU-35 with PAF i can't see it happening for 2 basic reasons.
1. money (where in the hell is the finances going to come from?)
2. India (100% they will lobby hard against it).
I think the best PAF can hope for is Russia improving the JF-17 with better avionics and a better engine. I doubt we get anything more then that.

 

[Quwa]

as much as i want to see SU-35 with PAF i can't see it happening for 2 basic reasons.
1. money (where in the hell is the finances going to come from?)
2. India (100% they will lobby hard against it).
I think the best PAF can hope for is Russia improving the JF-17 with better avionics and a better engine. I doubt we get anything more then that.

To be fair money might not be a complete issue. Russia could offer a line of credit to back the purchase (as they have for other customers), and Pakistan can pay them via installments of up to $200 million a year (doable, especially of the COIN theatre wraps up).

 

[deckingraj]

To be fair money might not be a complete issue. Russia could offer a line of credit to back the purchase (as they have for other customers), and Pakistan can pay them via installments of up to $200 million a year (doable, especially of the COIN theatre wraps up).

Ummm i think it would be an issue...especially with Oil prices plummeting and speculation ripe that they may touch $20 a barrel ...Russian kind of need hard dollars.....no??

 

[Quwa]

Ummm i think it would be an issue...especially with Oil prices plummeting and speculation ripe that they may touch $20 a barrel ...Russian kind of need hard dollars.....no??

Didn't stop them from offering Indonesia a line of credit for their Su-35 purchase.

 

[Humble Analyst]

as much as i want to see SU-35 with PAF i can't see it happening for 2 basic reasons.
1. money (where in the hell is the finances going to come from?)
2. India (100% they will lobby hard against it).
I think the best PAF can hope for is Russia improving the JF-17 with better avionics and a better engine. I doubt we get anything more then that.

Deal can be financed, it is the Indian lobby Pakistan has to work against

Just keep in mind that the Russians sold out the Iraqis in 91.

Somebody will always sell out someone. The most dependable country so far has been France but they are very expensive, like beyond reasonable expensive.

 

[VelocuR]

Air Commodore (R) Kaiser Tufail explains the Su-35S offer to defensenews.com

View attachment 256367
"There is a possible need for something in this class on two accounts: diversification and to support naval operations. The Su-35 "being a twin-engined aircraft with vast range (and endurance), it would help us to have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea, something that the puny, aging Mirage squadron is ill-suited for (as is the JF-17 from the range point of view)," he said. "Given the changing geo-politics and the Chinese investment whose trade terminus is Gwadar, there is definitely going to be a need for a long-range fighter. So essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned.

"All of this may sound like a sudden switch from continental strategy to a maritime one, but it is high time that we paid serious attention to this aspect in the fast changing geopolitical scenario. Pakistan's air power over the Arabian Sea already received a boost this month when No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron based in Karachi was re-equipped September 6 with the JF-17 Block II after surrendering its Chengdu F-7P fighters.

The re-equipment of [No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron] was due as they had the oldest lot of F-7s. The JF-17 was the obvious replacement. The Mirage-5PA2/3 is still a capable aircraft, though long in the tooth by now. Most likely, the replacement of these Mirages would have a maritime role, so it could be a couple of years before we see a newer capability. He said Whether that replacement is the Su-35, however, remains to be seen."

Defence News

Impressive and thoughtful analysis.

15 years ago, everybody were laughing when we would get latest F-16 Block 52 CFT or JF-17 wouldn't fly on the sky, nobody believe it.

Now we have to believe firmly Su-35 is coming to Pakistan soon if everything is working out with Russia.

 

[Viper0011.]

Reply to some of the concerns:
1. Relations are not done just for the sake of relations.
2. We are already exposed to Russia with JF-17's engine & other deals.
3. China is risk free, at tech frontier, 2 times US & EU.
4. Do we prefer 1 Su-35 sqdn over 3-4 JF-17 sqdns? (Conservative estimate, Su-35 may cost us more)
5. Expensive planes are a distraction, haunting West & everyone. See Pierre Sprey
6. Numbers matter: Giving flexibility in strategy - with Su-35 not possible.
7. Let JF-17s roll in huge numbers to create panic. Germany WWII: Total 95k, Fighters 53k (BF109 29k)
8. We can get Su-35 any time. It's not, now or never.
9. Things like JF-17 don't happen everyday. We don't need confusion.
10. Today, it's all about cost, and we are lucky to have JF-17.

You should learn from the Chinese in this regards. They buy small batches of advanced jets, play with them, get their people trained and learn from the best ones, and then build those internally. There is a strategy peace that you are missing. Today's purchases of SU-35 jets, will help tomorrow's twin engine JFT block 4 or a medium role variant of the JFT which would be bigger in size and would have both Russian and Chinese weapons packages, larger radars and all. Russia at this point is ahead in Radar tech than China. Chinese fighter radars don't go out to 400 miles just yet. But till they mature up, the Russians options are not bad at all with their HOBS BVR missiles.

The JFT scenario with large numbers you mentioned, it was initially built to replace Mirages and F-7's (which are 1960's tech). Now the basis of the JFT's tech and comparisons "baseline" was the F-16 (pre-mlu, block 15), which is 1970's technology. Some avoinics were upgraded to provide SD-10, ARM and AShM's. Which gave it a serious boost in terms of capability and its able to form a seriously capable backbone for the PAF without ever having to worry about sanctions. This means, in numbers, JFT's can give Pakistan enough conventional boost against India, to sustain a fight for a few weeks, even during sanctions. That's actually very impressive capability.

But, what do you do with alarming number of advanced tech on the Indian side? If every Indian jet focused on Pakistan is able to lock onto 4-8 JFT's and fire missile from 60-70 miles away.....how much resistance would be left when these SU's cross the border? or the ocean into Karachi? So strategy wise, now you need some capability that's considered a force-multiplier and can form the top tier.

Imagine, an interception package of 2 SU-35's and 4 JFT's sent from two directions, to intercept 8 SU-30's incoming from India. Guess what the game would look like? It's almost even field in BVR. While jets come closer, you'll have losses on each side. But the SU-35 will share data with the JFT, it'll multiply the JFT's capability three fold through sharing its resources.

8 SU-30's will have 8 incoming missiles fired by two SU-35's on them, plus 8 more from the JFT's. Chances of escaping two BVR's are pretty slim, in this case you are ALSO using Russian BVR's (advance ones). So by inducting limited top tier capability, you've successfully neutralized your enemy's much larger and similar capability. At the end of this one situation, say 2 SU-30's survived and 1 JFT and 1 SU-35 also survived.....what are the odds? 1:1 and that's real force multiplication which has neutralized the massive size the adversary has.

Similarly, in Naval role, your main threat isn't IAF coming from Mumbai or elsewhere as those are distant basis, its the AC's and Rajisthan based FOB's. Now 60 upgraded Migs and Harriers with some support from Rajisthan, say, about a total of 160, mixed fighters will deal with 40 Su-35's / J11D's, and 40 JFT's. So its 160 vs. 80. The seriously capable SU-35 provides, really helps negate the difference here, 40 SU-35 alone can tackle IAF's top tier from the Ocean and Rajisthan (40-60 Mig-29 SMT's and SU-30's). Mirages and Harriers can easily be tackled by the JFT's. So you played a 160 vs. 80 scenario on almost equal basis, due to the superior capability, it was never 2:1, it was like 1.25:1. Where .25 represents marginal increase because your force multipliers are much more advanced then majority of enemy's jets (Mig-29's, Mirages, Harriers, Tornados, Mig-27, 23's, etc, etc).

In a Naval attack role, they might allow you to fire 3 AShM's each. 20 SU-35 on attack mean a salvo of 60 missiles inbound towards a few high value ships. I don't think there is much defense in this situation.

Now, the JFT block IV can be a twin engine plane, may be smaller than SU-35 but still, and can carry 6-8 ton of weapons, and can be built with Russian input and weapons systems like Radars and Missiles. Why care for the French or the Swedes when you have sanction proof technology you can built internally and countries like Russia and China allowing you to have it? Think long term, not just what's happening tomorrow!

• IRBIS radar should be replaced by the AESA developed for J-20 by 611 institute. It reportedly has >2000 TRMs & its going to introduce a whole new capability to the Su-35.
  
  
• It should be datalinked with our other jets through tactical datalink.
  
  
• SD-10B and other advanced Chinese BVRAAMs should be a priority.
  
  
• Should integrate YJ-12 AShM & CM-400AKG.
  
  
• For ground roles, integrate RAAD and other Pakistani armament.

1) The Chinese won't sell the J-20's AESA radar to anyone, including Pakistan. That's their national security secret and its being treated at the level similar to how the US keeps everything confidential about the -22.

2) Data links will be available with the JFT's. Even through the ZDK's and GC's loop out to -16's too (the PAF has built an encoding and decoding solution to translate from the Chinese systems and relay to the link 16 through a device of some sort).

3) With SU-35, you'll get Archers and all, in addition to just SD-10. And the mix of multiple BVR weapons will be applied onto JFT's too at some point. JFT block IV would be heavier and who knows it might be a twin engine jet using Russian and Chinese weapons. This is very long term thinking (and good thinking). Raad and all will be integrated, along with H series standoff munitions.

 

[war&peace]

You should learn from the Chinese in this regards. They buy small batches of advanced jets, play with them, get their people trained and learn from the best ones, and then build those internally. There is a strategy peace that you are missing. Today's purchases of SU-35 jets, will help tomorrow's twin engine JFT block 4 or a medium role variant of the JFT which would be bigger in size and would have both Russian and Chinese weapons packages, larger radars and all. Russia at this point is ahead in Radar tech than China. Chinese fighter radars don't go out to 400 miles just yet. But till they mature up, the Russians options are not bad at all with their HOBS BVR missiles.

The JFT scenario with large numbers you mentioned, it was initially built to replace Mirages and F-7's (which are 1960's tech). Now the basis of the JFT's tech and comparisons "baseline" was the F-16 (pre-mlu, block 15), which is 1970's technology. Some avoinics were upgraded to provide SD-10, ARM and AShM's. Which gave it a serious boost in terms of capability and its able to form a seriously capable backbone for the PAF without ever having to worry about sanctions. This means, in numbers, JFT's can give Pakistan enough conventional boost against India, to sustain the fight for a few weeks, even during sanctions. That's actually very impressive capability.

But, what do you do with alarming number of advanced tech on the Indian side? If every Indian jet focused on Pakistan is able to lock onto 4-8 JFT's and fire missile from 60-70 miles away.....how much resistance would be left when these SU's cross the border? or the ocean into Karachi? So strategy wise, now you need some capability that's considered a force-multiplier and can form the top tier.

Imagine, an interception package of 2 SU-35's and 4 JFT's sent from two directions, to intercept 8 SU-30's incoming from India. Guess what the game would look like? It's almost even field in BVR. While jets come closer, you'll have losses on each side. But the SU-35 will share data with the JFT, it'll multiple the JFT's capability three fold through sharing its resources. 8 SU-30's will have 8 missiles fired by the SU-35's on them, plus 8 more from the JFT's. Chances of escaping two BVR's are pretty slim, in this case you are ALSO using Russian BVR's (advance ones). So by inducting limited top tier capability, you've successfully neutralized your enemy's much larger and similar capability. At the end of this one situation, say 2 SU-30's survived and 1 JFT and 1 SU-35 also survived.....what are the odds? 1:1 and that's real force multiplication.

Similarly, in Naval role, your main threat isn't IAF coming from Mumbai or elsewhere as those are distance basis, its the AC. Now 60 upgraded Migs and Harriers with some support from Rajisthan, say, about 150 mix of fighters will deal with 40 Su-35's or J-11D's, and F-16's or JFT's. So its 80 vs. 160, the seriously capable SU-35, really help negate the difference, provide seriously long range and in Naval attack role, they might allow you to fire 3 AShM's each. 20 SU-35 on attack mean a salvo of 60 missiles inbound towards a few high value ships. I don't think there is much defense in this situation.

Now, the JFT block IV can be a twin engine plane, may be smaller than SU-35 but still, and can carry 6-8 ton of weapons, and can be built with Russian input and weapons systems like Radars and Missiles. Why care for the French or the Swedes when you have sanction proof technology you can built internally and countries like Russia and China allowing you to have it? Think long term, not just what's happening tomorrow!

Excellent reasoning and that is waht we need a few squadrons of the latest 4.5+ generation aircraft like Su-35, J-11 D and JH-7 equipped with latest avionics and LRBVR and anti-ship cruise missiles like Ra'ad ALCM and then a large number of upgraded jf-17s getting data-linking with big brothers and see the enemy from a distance and firing BVRs on it.