Air Commodore (R) Kaiser Tufail explains the Su-35S offer.

[Viper0011.]

Excellent reasoning and that is waht we need a few squadrons of the latest 4.5+ generation aircraft like Su-35, J-11 D and JH-7 equipped with latest avionics .

Thank you. Btw, you don't need the JH-7, trust me on it. In fact, this was pitched a few times and the PAF already walked away from the idea. When JFT block III or IV (whichever is a redesign one) can take place with much less money, 80% of the tech and plane built in Pakistan and bigger engine or even twin engine with 6-8 ton weapons carrying capability, why waste money on an older platform (albeit upgraded one) like the JH-7A? Plus as of today, the engine, wiring and other items (maintenance) are crazy on this plane. Compared to the JFT, the JFT's maintenance is 60-75% less than JH-5A per flight hour. If the WS-10G or WS-15 were out and were comparable to the American engines, I might have said something else. But not useful in PAF's situation and her doctrine to defend or attack within 3-5 minutes....

 

[ziaulislam]

money, money and money
as of now we dont have money even for jf-17s

 

[Viper 94]

I think there is some serious consideration on the behalf of PAF for Su-35s for following reasons.

• Mirage-5PA2/3 will have to be retired.
  
  
• A platform with extended range is needed to replace them because of newly placed focus on maritime defense and power projection.
  
  
• India is building carriers with Mig-29K, something our existing Mirages etc can not take care of.
  
• Su-35S will be an ideal platform to not only defend Karachi, Port Qasim and Gwadar but also be able to effectively support our naval formations and take care of the Indian CBG problem.
  
  
• Su-35 offers PAF unprecedented range to effectively conduct operations not only deep inside India but also deep inside the Indian Ocean Region (IOR).
  
  
• It will solidify Pakistan Navy's sea denial capabilities when integrated with existing assets and force multipliers.
  
  
• It will allow us to quickly respond to any emergency situation in GCC.
  
  
• F-16s, JF-17s even FC-31 cannot offer us such a capability due to different performance parameters and operational doctrines.
  
  Su-35 assessment by USAF and USN Pilots. Killer in the Sky: Russia's Deadly Su-35 Fighter | The National Interest

if pakistan actually goes for su-35 we also have to consider that fact that the we would have to purchase the bombs and missiles that go along with it
and the spares for this completely new system. This will be a huge and expensive undertaking
that is why chinese j-11 might be a more suitable option since we already used chinese missile like sd-10, pl-5 etc and j-11 has got to be a lot cheaper that su-35

if j-11 is not advanced enough f-15 strike eagle is an excellent option if the u.s is willing to sell them
f-15 shares many parts with the f-16 especially engines and all the missiles and bombs we purchased for the f-16 can be loaded on the f-15

 

[tarrar]

The fact is PAF needs SU35, they will replace the old dying fleet of Mirages & PAF will get long range air superiority. PAF should go for SU35 asap & they should try to acquire good quantity of SU35.

 

[batmannow]

if pakistan actually goes for su-35 we also have to consider that fact that the we would have to purchase the bombs and missiles that go along with it
and the spares for this completely new system. This will be a huge and expensive undertaking
that is why chinese j-11 might be a more suitable option since we already used chinese missile like sd-10, pl-5 etc and j-11 has got to be a lot cheaper that su-35

View attachment 256725
if j-11 is not advanced enough f-15 strike eagle is an excellent option if the u.s is willing to sell them
f-15 shares many parts with the f-16 especially engines and all the missiles and bombs we purchased for the f-16 can be loaded on the f-15

View attachment 256723

China can't give J11 BECAUSE it has the contract with Russia to not to export it ?
China & Russia are closeset allies , they don't dis hounr their commitments ?
So thats why China is sponsoring SU-35 to Pakistan , & amo used in J11 is nearly the same as what is used in su 35 & that amo will be given to us cheaply by China ?
But no hi tech weapon comes free .

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Where was this lobby when Modi was drinking tea with obama

Russia is free nation also the planes are for defence

 

[princefaisal]

30 Su-35S from Russia and 30 J-11D from China (with at least 40% of TOT rights) should be procured. TOT from China will give benefit for the maintenance of both fighters.

 

[WaLeEdK2]

Our entire Defence Budget is a little over $7 billion. Most of the budget favours the army (for obvious reasons). However, I believe that the budget should now favour the airforce as we are losing ground to the IAF. At this point I'm not sure how we're going to pay for even 2 squadrons of Su-35s. At times like this we need to be patient and prioritize. What's more important is how to rebuild Pakistan's economy. Once the economy gets going the money woes will disappear. IMO it's a little too early to be trying to purchase a fighter like the Su-35. But that being said we should still carry on with the JFT program to replace our fleet of F-7s and mirages.

 

[Viper 94]

China can't give J11 BECAUSE it has the contract with Russia to not to export it ?
China & Russia are closeset allies , they don't dis hounr their commitments ?
So thats why China is sponsoring SU-35 to Pakistan , & amo used in J11 is nearly the same as what is used in su 35 & that amo will be given to us cheaply by China ?
But no hi tech weapon comes free .

well china has provided pakistan f-6 which was licence produced mig-19 and f-7s (mig-21)
i guess russians won't allow the same with j-11
even if the ammunition is the same as jf-17, the logistics infrastructure needed to introduce su-35 will be very costly
air forces like us, israel ,singapore, korea and japan use a combination of f-16s and f-15s since they share engine, ammunition and spare commonality
I think PAF should do the same instead of having 3 completely different platforms

 

[Kakaspai]

if pakistan actually goes for su-35 we also have to consider that fact that the we would have to purchase the bombs and missiles that go along with it
and the spares for this completely new system. This will be a huge and expensive undertaking
that is why chinese j-11 might be a more suitable option since we already used chinese missile like sd-10, pl-5 etc and j-11 has got to be a lot cheaper that su-35

View attachment 256725
if j-11 is not advanced enough f-15 strike eagle is an excellent option if the u.s is willing to sell them
f-15 shares many parts with the f-16 especially engines and all the missiles and bombs we purchased for the f-16 can be loaded on the f-15

View attachment 256723

And if Pakistan and india go to war who will russia support?

 

[Viper 94]

And if Pakistan and india go to war who will russia support?

obviously india
thats why its unlikely paf will purchase such an expensive and important system from russia
but again there is still a possibility for russia to remain neutral and play a role of a mediator in a hypothetical indo-pak conflict like the u.s
plus the chinese will surely support pakistan and the chinese have incredible leverage over the russians
the good thing is that indians have pissed of russian by not choosing mig-35 for the mmrca deal and are cosying up to the u.s lately
but the u.s is only using india to counter china

 

[araz]

That guy thinking is GOLD

An argument which is genuine needs to be counter argued not ridiculed. He does have a fair point.
In current scenario with PAFs hands full with JFT inductions and setup of infrastructure SU35 would be a distraction as it would be more of the same and then some more. So we go into 2020.
Now at that time the situation will depend on what is happening with J31 or any other offering that China/Russia have. The 3 billion loan from Russia is a myth and has dissipated due to economic constraints which was why we bought 4 MI35s rather than 20 which is our requirement. So what we buy is going to be with us for 30 yrs and we will not be able to afford anything else for 8_10 yrs. Under those circumstances would posters want to go for SU35 Or wait 2_3 yrs and get J31.
AVM Kaiser Tufail is also indirectly pointing to the same dilemma facing PAF. There is no doubt that the 35 is a beauty. However integration would depend on Russians agreeing to allow integration of other weapons and depot level maintenance which may be problematic. PAF may also want an AESA on it which could be Russian, Chinese or EU product and the latter two would expose the plane to other parties and again there might be problems.
So all in all there is still plenty of doubt about a deal while not denying the utility/need of this beautiful platform for PAF. We will all be very happy to see it in PAF but when the choice is between j31 and SU35 what would you buy? This is what the question is.

 

[Zaneesh852]

These is pretty unprofessional for a pro. If all Pakistan was to end up buying Su35, then what is the point of having robust antiship capabilities in JF17s and the depolyment of airial refuelers in karachi?

 

[black-hawk_101]

Air Commodore (R) Kaiser Tufail explains the Su-35S offer to defensenews.com

View attachment 256367
"There is a possible need for something in this class on two accounts: diversification and to support naval operations. The Su-35 "being a twin-engined aircraft with vast range (and endurance), it would help us to have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea, something that the puny, aging Mirage squadron is ill-suited for (as is the JF-17 from the range point of view)," he said. "Given the changing geo-politics and the Chinese investment whose trade terminus is Gwadar, there is definitely going to be a need for a long-range fighter. So essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned.

"All of this may sound like a sudden switch from continental strategy to a maritime one, but it is high time that we paid serious attention to this aspect in the fast changing geopolitical scenario. Pakistan's air power over the Arabian Sea already received a boost this month when No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron based in Karachi was re-equipped September 6 with the JF-17 Block II after surrendering its Chengdu F-7P fighters.

The re-equipment of [No. 2 'Minhas' Squadron] was due as they had the oldest lot of F-7s. The JF-17 was the obvious replacement. The Mirage-5PA2/3 is still a capable aircraft, though long in the tooth by now. Most likely, the replacement of these Mirages would have a maritime role, so it could be a couple of years before we see a newer capability. He said Whether that replacement is the Su-35, however, remains to be seen."

Defence News

Kaiser Tufail is an awesome Airmen of PAF. He is one of the key leading roles of PAF's evaluation teams. I have heard about him on this forum and I am quite impressed with him since. In the past, I have heard that PNAF is going for 40 JF-17Block-II but I think this now have turned into 50-60 SU-35s. This means that there will be two or three squadrons of SU-35s like:
25-30 of SU-35s one @ Karachi and other @Pasni
20 of SU-35s one @ Karachi one @Ormara and other @Pasni

I think there is some serious consideration on the behalf of PAF for Su-35s for following reasons.

• Mirage-5PA2/3 will have to be retired.
  
  
• A platform with extended range is needed to replace them because of newly placed focus on maritime defense and power projection.
  
  
• India is building carriers with Mig-29K, something our existing Mirages etc can not take care of.
  
• Su-35S will be an ideal platform to not only defend Karachi, Port Qasim and Gwadar but also be able to effectively support our naval formations and take care of the Indian CBG problem.
  
  
• Su-35 offers PAF unprecedented range to effectively conduct operations not only deep inside India but also deep inside the Indian Ocean Region (IOR).
  
  
• It will solidify Pakistan Navy's sea denial capabilities when integrated with existing assets and force multipliers.
  
  
• It will allow us to quickly respond to any emergency situation in GCC.
  
  
• F-16s, JF-17s even FC-31 cannot offer us such a capability due to different performance parameters and operational doctrines.
  
  Su-35 assessment by USAF and USN Pilots. Killer in the Sky: Russia's Deadly Su-35 Fighter | The National Interest

But I think PAF needs to negotiate with US for the possible sale of another 32+ F-16s and also allowing PAF to buy Egyptian and Jordanians F-16s.

The reason why SU35S is being considered by PAF and PN.


Below are the similarities between Su-30MKI and Su-35S:
12 Hard Points
8000kgs external ordinance
G-limit 9
Same Air-Air and Air-Ground weapons package
Has Thrust Vectoring
Can house external jammers and all varieties of pods.
Has inflight re-fueling
etc.. etc..


Differences:
Su-30MKI-
Maximum internal fuel - 9,640kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling) - 3000kms
Max ceiling - 17.3km
Max Speed - Mach 1.9
Canards - Yes
Crew - 2
Max Afterburner Thrust - 12500kgf, Emergency Thrust - 12800kgf
External Fuel Tanks - No
Composites - Not in significant quantity.
Empty Weight - unknown. Estimated to be around 18400kgs.
Airframe life - 3,000hrs or 15 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - No
RCS - unofficial estimate 11.5m2
Airbrake - Yes
Supercruise- No


Su-35S-
Maximum internal fuel - 11,500kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling, without external fuel tanks) - 3600kms
Max ceiling - 18km
Max Speed - Mach 2.25
Canards - No (since radar isn't heavy)
Crew - 1
Max Afterburner Thrust - 14500kgf(gives a massive boost to TWR compared to Su-30MKI)
External Fuel Tanks - Yes (can carry 2 drop tanks of 1400kgs fuel in each of them)
Composites - Yes. Extensive use of Titanium Alloys.
Empty Weight - Unknown. Estimated to be around 18800kgs.
Airframe life - 6,000hrs or 30 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - Yes
RCS - unofficial estimate between 1-3m2
Airbrake - No. Powerful modified rudders act as Airbrakes.
Supercruise - Yes

Radar-
This deserves a separate mention. Because this is where the difference is at its max.
Su-30MKI has a N-011M BARS Radar
Transmitter peak power - 5kw
Transmitter average power - 1.2kw
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 140 km(Upgraded Radar with upgraded transmitter power, if any in service, its range is unknown.)

Su-35S has N-035 IRBIS-E. The most powerful Fighter Plane mounted X Band radar in the world. Specs are as follows.
Transmitter peak power - 20kw
Transmitter average power - 5kw
Can Track - 30 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 8 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 426 km
Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 375 km
Max Detection for 1 sqm RCS - 285 km
Max Detection for 0.01 sqm RCS - 90 km

I think PNAF might not be able to get 50-60 EF-2000s for the price of SU-35s and also the maintenance cost of Typhoons are also quite high too.

 

[batmannow]

well china has provided pakistan f-6 which was licence produced mig-19 and f-7s (mig-21)
i guess russians won't allow the same with j-11
even if the ammunition is the same as jf-17, the logistics infrastructure needed to introduce su-35 will be very costly
air forces like us, israel ,singapore, korea and japan use a combination of f-16s and f-15s since they share engine, ammunition and spare commonality
I think PAF should do the same instead of having 3 completely different platforms

Mr , Japan , Korea , Israel , has other American gadgets too ?
F-15 are never been offered to Pakistan & american are not dependable alllies at any time of war to Pakistan ?
So ,its time to move on , we have our own plans & we are going to do what is best for us?
Also ammunitions used by SU - 35 are not same as JF 17 , but its nearly similar to what China has , J11s ?
So , we can get them far more cheaper then what we could by buying for , F-15s from USA

And if Pakistan and india go to war who will russia support?

Pakistan because , of China !
which is the biggest all weather investor , allay to both Pakistan & Russia ?