AIP vs nuclear submarines

[Penguin]

They could get 209 anytime. But they did not.

UIhm, no, because the 209 was developed exclusively for export. The 201's and 206's as well as the 212A are made of non-magnetic steel. ( The 205s used ST-52 steel because the original amagnetic material of the 201 proved problematic at depth but those problems were solved with the arrival of the 206) The Type 209 isn't made of non-magnetic steel. For export parallel to 212A, Germany has developed the Type 214, which also lacks the non-magnetic steel.

 

[500]

UIhm, no, because the 209 was developed exclusively for export.

What was the problem to use it for themselves?

The 201's and 206's as well as the 212A are made of non-magnetic steel. ( The 205s used ST-52 steel because the original amagnetic material of the 201 proved problematic at depth but those problems were solved with the arrival of the 206) The Type 209 isn't made of non-magnetic steel. For export parallel to 212A, Germany has developed the Type 214, which also lacks the non-magnetic steel.

Non magnetic steel is crucial in shallow waters. U prove my point.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Stop talking crap. Chinese subs use diesel and Stirling engines.

The Type 039C uses the fuel cell AIP.

Nice HD close-up view of 039C SSK fuel cell AIP attack submarine

 

[The SC]

I have a vintage watch with non -magnetic steel , any one interested?
The steel can be analysed and reverse engineered...to make non-magnetic steel submarine shells.

 

[Penguin]

What was the problem to use it for themselves?

It was non magnetic, therefor less/not suited to German navy needs.

Non magnetic steel is crucial in shallow waters. U prove my point.

You had a point?

 

[500]

It was non magnetic, therefor less/not suited to German navy needs.

In deep waters its not critical.

You had a point?

My point is that shallow Baltic waters are prime area for German subs. Thats why they did not bother to build large subs for decades. And 212 is also optimized for shallow waters.

Nuclear subs are too big for Baltic and are banned by treaty as well. Thats why Germans are not interested in nuclear subs.

 

[Penguin]

In deep waters its not critical.


My point is that shallow Baltic waters are prime area for German subs. Thats why they did not bother to build large subs for decades. And 212 is also optimized for shallow waters.

Nuclear subs are too big for Baltic and are banned by treaty as well. Thats why Germans are not interested in nuclear subs.

The non-magnetic steel issue is related to Baltops. It is one of the reasons Germany did not acquire 209s. Hence it is also used on 212A (there is no 212 :o), which is not only for Baltops but also for North Sea and wider area ops (with a view to international military obligations).

Having said that, the focus on Baltops has not stopped the German navy to operate even its small boats in the North Sea and its new 212A in the Caraibbean.

USS Enterprise (Photo by German submarine)

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/026524.jpg

Marine: Deutsches U 24 schlich sich bei Manöver unentdeckt an amerikanischen Flugzeugträger - Das Zielfoto, das einen US-Admiral wütend machte - Politik - Ausland - Hamburger Abendblatt
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Google Translate

 

[500]

206 - good for shallow bad for deep. Accepted.
209 - good for deep bad for shallow. Rejected.
212 - good both for shallow and deep. Accepted.

Nuclear - good for deep bad for shallow.

 

[Penguin]

206 - good for shallow bad for deep. Accepted.
209 - good for deep bad for shallow. Rejected.
212 - good both for shallow and deep. Accepted.

Nuclear - good for deep bad for shallow.

Gross simplification.

Both 205 and 205 had a divingdepth of 150m operational (like e.g. Sweden's much bigger Sjoormen, which is more like 209) and 209 has a diving depth of 300m operational (500m max), which is same as e.g. UK Upholder or Argentine TR-1700 or French Agosta. While that is double that of the previous boats, it doesn't mean 209 performs poor in shallow water. The smaller 205 and 206 have the same diving depth, but different steel, which gives one an advantage over the other in stealth. But...Diving depth is a major factor in avoiding a pursuit

While the maximum diving depth ofthe type 212A remains classified, the type 214 can go deeper than 1,300 feet,The Type 214 submarine is a further improvement of the Type 212A, with an incresed diving depth of more than 400 meters.

Type 212/214 submarines

A Compendium of Armaments and Military Hardware (Routledge Revivals)
Door Christopher Chant
A Compendium of Armaments and Military Hardware (Routledge Revivals) - Christopher Chant - Google Boeken

Anti-Submarine Warfare: An Illustrated History
Door David Owen
Anti-Submarine Warfare: An Illustrated History - David Owen - Google Boeken

 

[The SC]

Soryu can go to 500 m depth, and is one of the best silent diesel-electric submarines out there whith AIP based on kockums stirling engine.
On 9 April 2014 Australian Defence Minister David Johnston while discussing Australia's future submarine options described the Sōryū-class as 'extremely impressive'.

 

[500]

Gross simplification.

Both 205 and 205 had a divingdepth of 150m operational (like e.g. Sweden's much bigger Sjoormen, which is more like 209) and 209 has a diving depth of 300m operational (500m max), which is same as e.g. UK Upholder or Argentine TR-1700 or French Agosta. While that is double that of the previous boats, it doesn't mean 209 performs poor in shallow water. The smaller 205 and 206 have the same diving depth, but different steel, which gives one an advantage over the other in stealth. But...Diving depth is a major factor in avoiding a pursuit

While the maximum diving depth ofthe type 212A remains classified, the type 214 can go deeper than 1,300 feet,The Type 214 submarine is a further improvement of the Type 212A, with an incresed diving depth of more than 400 meters.

Type 212/214 submarines

A Compendium of Armaments and Military Hardware (Routledge Revivals)
Door Christopher Chant
A Compendium of Armaments and Military Hardware (Routledge Revivals) - Christopher Chant - Google Boeken

Anti-Submarine Warfare: An Illustrated History
Door David Owen
Anti-Submarine Warfare: An Illustrated History - David Owen - Google Boeken

Deep water operation needs range and speed. 206 had poor range and speed compare to 209.

The Type 214 submarine is a further improvement of the Type 212A,

No, Type 214 is 209 derivative employing 212A technologies.

 

[MastanKhan]

Supposedly the American SeaWolfe class were quitter at 20 knots than the Akula sitting in the harbor.

 

[The SC]

What's the dolphins to the 212A?

 

[About.to.be.banned]

Best AIP sub (212) costs about 500-600 mln, best nuclear sub (Virgina) - about 1.8 bln .

Is U-212 better than Japan's Soryu or Sweden's Goatland class?

 

[500]

What's the dolphins to the 212A?

Dolphin 1 = enlarged 212A without AIP
Dolphin 2 = even more enlarged 212A with AIP from 214.

Is U-212 better than Japan's Soryu or Sweden's Goatland class?

212A uses fuel cells AIP which is better than Stirling used on Gotland and Soryu.