Ahmadiyya Muslim sect thanks Guardian for exposing hate

[Tiger Awan]

But Pakistan is only 13% of worldwide population of Muslims.. Rest of the countries with balance 87% Muslims do not distinguish legally between Ahmedis and non Ahmedis.. Why?

Already answered

post # 111

 

[karan.1970]

Already answered

post # 111

So rest of the countries dont have any issues with Ahmedis calling themselves as Muslims.. correct??

 

[Emmie]

Just assume that Ahmadia's are not muslims. But again any pakistani member backing the ill treatment to Ahmadia's who are their own countrymen. God help this country.

Listen mate... We don't have any problem with Ahmedis when it comes to nationality...they are Pakistanis as other Muslims and Non-Muslims are. What all we say is they are non-Muslims not non-Pakistanis.

 

[Hyde]

So rest of the countries dont have any issues with Ahmedis calling themselves as Muslims.. correct??

Well no they don't consider them Muslim as well

But they have not officially declared them as Non-Muslim...

PS: They did not need to declare them Non-Muslim because Ahmedis are found only in few European countries and South Asia

Very few in other countries

 

[karan.1970]

Well no they don't consider them Muslim as well

But they have not officially declared them as Non-Muslim...

thats kind of contradictory.. No?

 

[roadrunner]

Just assume that Ahmadia's are not muslims. But again any pakistani member backing the ill treatment to Ahmadia's who are their own countrymen. God help this country.

I agree. It is alright to not consider them Muslims, as long as they have similar rights as everyone else.

It does need Section 298C to be repealed though. Let society sort it out through debate with them.

 

[Emmie]

So rest of the countries dont have any issues with Ahmedis calling themselves as Muslims.. correct??

Yeah may be other countries but not Muslims of other countries.


What Indian Muslims think of Ahmadiyya? Have a read.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/ban-ahmadiyas-from-performing-haj-darul-ulo/812183/

 

[Hyde]

thats kind of contradictory.. No?

Its not contradictory... Its easy if you read it in simple way

 

[Tiger Awan]

Before they were not bothered whether they were Muslim or not. The law/Constitution was secular.

Pakistani constitutions have always been semi-secular

only thing general public understand is country should be named ISLAMIC REPUBLIC

Even present constitution is ....... well i dot know

You can compare the principles adopted by Hazrat Umar (2nd caliph of Islam) and the constitution of Pakistan. They are so different

We never had a good constitution.

 

[roadrunner]

You can still call it an Islamic Republic and have a secular Constitution.

The religious bit of the Constiution was rushed through without much thought. It was a foreign cultural imposition on Pakistan that didn't make complete sense logically.

Having a religious part to the Constitution would be alright, as long as it was well thought out and logical.

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

Assalam alaikum

other muslim countries since they don't have any qadianies there and this religion was not originated in their land, they don't need to talk about it in their constitution but all the ulema be it from any country r united calling them kuffar and we take our religion from our ulema and not from constitution but since pakistan was a special case we had to write it down in there.

i think everyone coming from non muslim countries to the holy lands have to get a certificate of some sort that he is not qadiani

indians who r telling us ( pakistanies ) that we r the only one saying they r not muslims , we got silko and other brothers from bangladesh ,saudi arabia or egypt just ask them if qadianies r muslims or not if they don't know the answer let them ask anyone who know the answer

at the end it will be clear that no muslm consider these ppl as muslims period.

TARIQ

 

[Emmie]

thats kind of contradictory.. No?

Here's the part you missed in your previous post when you referred to Wikipedia.

Ahmadiyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Current status


India
India has a significant Ahmadiyya population.[55] Most of them live in Rajasthan, Orissa, Haryana, Bihar, Delhi, Uttar Pradesh, and a few in Punjab in the area of Qadian. In India, Ahmadis are considered to be Muslims by the Government of India. This belief is supported by a court verdict (Shihabuddin Koya vs. Ahammed Koya, A.I.R. 1971 Ker 206).[56] There is no legislation that declares Ahmadis non-Muslims or limits their activities.[56]
The Islamic University of India and Darul Uloom Deoband have declared Ahmadis to be non-Muslims.[57] Ahmadis are not allowed to sit on the All India Muslim Personal Law Board, a body of religious leaders that India's government recognises as representative of Indian Muslims.[58]
Pakistan
See also: May 2010 attacks on Ahmadi mosques in Lahore
Pakistan has 4 million Ahmadis[59] and is the only state to have officially declared the Ahmadis to be non-Muslims;[56] here their freedom of religion has been curtailed by a series of ordinances, acts and constitutional amendments. In 1974 Pakistan's parliament adopted a law declaring Ahmadis to be non-Muslims;[60] the country's constitution was amended to define a Muslim “as a person who believes in the finality of the Prophet Muhammad”.[38] In 1984 General Zia-ul-Haq, the then military ruler of Pakistan, issued Ordinance XX.[61][62] The ordinance, which was supposed to prevent "anti-Islamic activities", forbids Ahmadis to call themselves Muslim or to "pose as Muslims". This means that they are not allowed to profess the Islamic creed publicly or call their places of worship mosques.[63] Ahmadis in Pakistan are also barred by law from worshipping in non-Ahmadi mosques or public prayer rooms, performing the Muslim call to prayer, using the traditional Islamic greeting in public, publicly quoting from the Quran, preaching in public, seeking converts, or producing, publishing, and disseminating their religious materials. These acts are punishable by imprisonment of up to three years.[15] In applying for a passport or a national ID card, all Pakistanis are required to sign an oath declaring Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be an impostor prophet and all Ahmadis to be non-Muslims.[50] Because he was an Ahmadi, the word "Muslim" was erased from the gravestone of the Nobel prize winning theoretical physicist Abdus Salam.[50]
As a result of the cultural implications of the laws and constitutional amendments regarding Ahmadis in Pakistan, persecution and hate-related incidents are constantly reported from different parts of the country. Ahmadis have been the target of many attacks led by various religious groups.[64] All religious seminaries and madrasahs in Pakistan, belonging to different sects of Islam, have prescribed essential reading materials specifically targeted at refuting Ahmadiyya beliefs.[65]
In a 2005 survey in Pakistan, pupils in private schools of Pakistan expressed their opinions on religious tolerance in the country. The figures assembled in the study reflect that even in the educated classes of Pakistan, Ahmadis are considered to be the least deserving minority in terms of equal opportunities and civil rights. In the same study, the teachers in these elite schools showed an even lower amount of tolerance towards Ahmadis than their pupils.[66]
28 May 2010 saw the worst single incident of violence against Ahmadis to date (see: May 2010 Lahore attacks), when several members of an extremist religious group (allegedly Tehrik-e-Taliban Punjab) entered two Ahmadi mosques in Lahore, opened fire, and three of them later detonated themselves. In total, the attacks claimed the lives of 95 people and injured well over 100. The members were gathered in the mosques attending Friday services.[67] In response to the attacks, Pakistan minister for minorities Shahbaz Bhatti visited the Ahmadi community.[citation needed]
Bangladesh
In Bangladesh, fundamentalist Islamic groups have demanded that Ahmadiyyas be “officially” declared to be kafirs (infidels). Ahmadiyyas have become a persecuted group, targeted via protests and acts of violence.[68] According to Amnesty International, followers have been subject to “house arrest”, and several have been killed. In late 2003, several large violent marches, led by Moulana Moahmud Hossain Mumtazi, were directed to occupy an Ahmadiyya mosque. In 2004, all Ahmadiyya publications were banned.[69]
Indonesia
See also: Ahmadiyya in Indonesia
Ahmadiyya had existed before Proclamation of Indonesian Independence.[citation needed] However, Ahmadiyya as a controversial religious minority in Indonesia has only risen sharply in the 2000s with a rise of Islamic fundamentalism. In 2008, many Muslims in Indonesia protested against the Ahmadiyya movement. With large demonstrations, these religious conservatives put pressure on the government to monitor, and harass the Ahmadiyya community in Indonesia. Public opinion in Indonesia is split in two major views on how Ahmadiyya should be treated: (a) majority of Muslim over Indonesia hold that it should be banned outright on the basis that Ahmadiyah had misleaded the central tenet of Islam that Muhammad is the last messenger of God, and pretend Ahmadis to not using Islam as their banner and should made their own recognized religion in order to ensure their freedom of religion in Indonesia; (b) some minorities including Ahmadis and numbers of Non-Govermental Organization hold that it should be free to do and say as it pleases under the banner of Islam to fulfill the Constitutional right of freedom of religion. In June 2008, a law was passed to curtail “proselytizing” by Ahmadiyya members.[70] An Ahmadiyya mosque was burned.[71] Human rights groups objected to the restrictions on religious freedom. On February 6, 2011 some Ahmadiyya members were killed at Pandeglang, Banten province.[72] In the few past years there has been an increase in attacks on religious freedom, including incidents of physical abuse, preventing groups from performing prayers and burning their mosques. Data from the Setara Institute for Democracy and Peace show 17 incidents, 18 and 64 for the years 2008, 2009 and 2010 respectively.[73] Although the data cover persecution of all religions, the recent persecution of Ahmadis is significant and hard, followed by persecution of Christians and persecution of other Islamic sects who claim 'genuine/pure/fundamentalist Muslims'.
As of 2011, the sect faces widespread calls for a total "ban" in Indonesia.[74] On February 6 2011, hundreds of orthodox Muslims surrounded an Ahmadiyya household and beat three people to death. Footage of the bludgeoning of their naked bodies - while policeman looked on - was posted on the internet and subsequently broadcast on international media.[75]
Even so, majority of Muslims in Indonesia see that the widespreading attack on Ahmadiyya is a counter-action to Ahmadis' stubbornness to fulfill the Indonesian Three-Minister Collective Decree on Ahmadiyya that ask Ahmadis to leave the Islamic banner and create their own religion, in order to mantain situation and ensure their freedom of religion and safety.

Views by Orthodox Muslims

Orthodox Muslims consider both Ahmadi movements to be heretical and non-Muslim for a number of reasons, chief among them being the question of finality of prophethood,[76] since they believe members of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community do not regard the Islamic prophet Muhammad as the last prophet.[77] The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement does not subscribe to this belief; its members, in fact, do not see Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet in the conventional sense .[33] Ahmadis claim that this is a result of misinterpreting Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's statements referring to his coming “in the spirit of Muhammed”,[78] (similar to John the Baptist coming in the spirit and power of Elijah).[79] Ahmadi Muslims believe Ghulam Ahmad to be the Mahdi and promised Messiah. Orthodox Muslims reject this and cite that Ghulam Ahmad did not fulfill the prophecies of Imam Mahdi and the title of Messiah was given only to Jesus and no one else. He is considered to be a false prophet.
The Muslim World League held its annual conference at Mecca, Saudi Arabia from 14th to 18th of Rabiul Awwal 1394 H (April 1974) in which 140 delegations of Muslim countries and organizations from all over the world participated. At the conference, the League issued the following declaration:
"Qadianism or Ahmadiyyat: It is a subversive movement against Islam and the Muslim world, which falsely and decietfully claims to be an Islamic sect; who under the guise of Islam and for the sake of mundane interests contrives and plans to damage the very foundations of Islam."[80]
Both Ahmadi movements are considered non-Muslims by the Pakistan government, and have this fact recorded on their travel documents. By contrast, Ahmadi citizens from Western countries and some Muslim states perform Hajj and Umra, as the Saudi government is not made aware that they are Ahmadis when they apply for a visa. A court decision has upheld the right of Ahmadiyyas to identify themselves as Muslims in India.[81]
As the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement’s view regarding Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s status as a Prophet is closer to current Orthodox Islamic thought, the literature published by the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement has found greater acceptance among the Muslim intelligentsia.[82][83]
Some Muslims group both Ahmadi movements together and refer to them as “Qadianis”, and their beliefs as “Qadianism”[84] (after the small town of Qadian in the Gurdaspur District of Punjab in India, where the movement's founder was born). However most, if not all, Ahmadis of both sects dislike this term as it has acquired derogatory connotations over the years and furthermore they prefer to differentiate their two separate movements. Most Muslims will not use the term “Muslim” when referring to Ahmadis, even though both sects refer to themselves as such, citing the fatwas given by the Islamic scholars. However, as members of Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement deny the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, some orthodox Islamic Scholars consider the Lahore Ahmadiyya to be Muslims.[85] In earlier times in Pakistan and India, there was widespread persecution of Ahmadis by certain Muslim groups. Sporadic violence as well as persecution of a more subtle nature against Ahmadis continues even today.[86]

 

[roadrunner]

Assalam alaikum

other muslim countries since they don't have any qadianies there and this religion was not originated in their land, they don't need to talk about it in their constitution but all the ulema be it from any country r united calling them kuffar and we take our religion from our ulema and not from constitution but since pakistan was a special case we had to write it down in there.

i think everyone coming from non muslim countries to the holy lands have to get a certificate of some sort that he is not qadiani

indians who r telling us ( pakistanies ) that we r the only one saying they r not muslims , we got silko and other brothers from bangladesh ,saudi arabia or egypt just ask them if qadianies r muslims or not if they don't know the answer let them ask anyone who know the answer

at the end it will be clear that no muslm consider these ppl as muslims period.

TARIQ

well turks have al levis. they are just like qadianis. but nothing is written in the law about them in turkey at all.

i think the problem with ahmmadiys isn't about whether they are muslim or not. They probably are not. The question is mainly over their right to think they're Muslim. Society can just debate them on this point instead of making a law over it.

 

[Thor]

The British would always support Ahmaddiya as the founder of Ahmaddiya is their seedling as stated from his own writings.

I am the "Self-implanted/Self-cultivated Seedling " of the British Government. "Government should take great care regarding this SELF-IMPLANTED SEEDLING . . . . .should instruct its officers to treat ME and MY JAMA'AT with special kindness and favours. Our family has never hesitated in shedding their blood in the way of British Rulers and did not stop from laying down their lives neither do they hesitate now." (Roohani Khazain vol.13 p.350)

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i421/rab_zuk1/BritishLoyalty.jpg

-------------

"From my early age till now when I am 65 years of age, I have been engaged , with my pen and tongue, in an important task to turn the hearts of Muslims towards the true love & Goodwill & sympathy for the British Government and to obliterate the idea of Jehad from the hearts of stupid (Muslims). " (Kitab-ul-Bariyah, Roohani Khazain vol 13 p.350)

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i421/rab_zuk1/BritishLoyalty.jpg

----------------

" for the sake of British Government, I have published & distributed 50,000 leaflets in this country (India) other Islamic countries. . . . the result is that hundreds of thousands of people have given up their ****** ideas about Jihad." (Roohani Khazain vol 15 p.114)

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i421/rab_zuk1/leafletsBritishgovernment.jpg

Part 2 is here

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i421/rab_zuk1/leafletsBritishgovernment2.jpg

IT APPEARS THAT AHMADI SYMPATHISERS ARE AT IT AGAIN MEESNA, YOU MUST RY YOUR HAND AT OTHER THINGS AS AHMADDIYA IS BEING EXPOSED HUGELY ON PDF BY MYSELF AND I WILL SHOW MEMBERS HERE THE TRUE FACE OF MIRZA GHULAM AHMAD

 

[Tiger Awan]

You can still call it an Islamic Republic and have a secular Constitution.

The religious bit of the Constiution was rushed through without much thought. It was a foreign cultural imposition on Pakistan that didn't make complete sense logically.

Having a religious part to the Constitution would be alright, as long as it was well thought out and logical.

irony is the basic principles of Islam that were obligatory in Hazrat Umar goverment system are discussed in a very strange manner. Eg the accountability of the people representatives. Islam has clear laws about this in Quran and Hadis. But i have never heard any thing about accountability in our constitution. Normally they are treated as Fraud cases. If its a Islamic country and we are following Islam in government matters then it must be dealt separately ( in the same manner Hazrat Umar did). But we were contended by including these two lines from objectieve resolution

Sovereignty belongs to Allah alone but He has delegated it to the State of Pakistan through its people for being exercised within the limits prescribed by Him as a sacred trust.
The State shall exercise its powers and authority through the chosen representatives of the people.

and noting is done pratically to ensure this.