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Ahmadis in Pakistan

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Advice of the day:coffee:

BTW Some People here believe in something called the "Freedom of Information and Freedom of speech and expression" if you have even heard of them.

The member is expressing his thoughts as you do and based on that you are not body to tell him what he cant do ! , he has every right to view the information in this thread and have his say which does not give you the right to oppress his opinion by letting yourself off the hook.

Cheerz.

Advising someone not to veiw what irks them does not mean that "Freedom of Information or Freedom of speech and expression" is being limited or restricted. I do not know how advising someone ends up affecting their "freedom", maybe in your world things occur in this manner.

He has the right to express his opinion but when it does not add an ounce of weight to the argument or offers anything substansive to a debate, it is useless.

We are having a debate on rights of a certain people here, not asking others to present baseless propaganda or take advise from others to close a much required argument.

I am expressing my opinion, should not matter to you.
 
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Can i get a mouth tape somewhere?

Gone to hell the freedom of speech , now you tell me about it what to and what not to discuss cant you?

Last night i got fined by a police officer for putting my car into reverse gear while i was trying to pull out of my drive way , when asked i was told that i was not allowed to use my Reverse gear to reverse my car - fantasy land huh ?

Power corrupts some old man has said specially when it is given to an ill fated -half baked skull written in read with some unprecedented powers in hand dont you think so?:D

Power is given on merit and character, not affiliations or penchant for hatred of others.

I guess those who cannot aquire them even with all the time on theirs hands must blame their lack of wit and ability.

A sharp tongue is no indication of a keen mind.
 
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Issue of someone Muslim or not ... final decision rests with God.

As per Objectives Resolution ... Parliament could not interfere in the authority of God. Parliament could not rule out this matter!

So .... lets watch for centuries... may be Ahmedies get more population than rest of Muslims. Then they will get the authority to define "Muslim".

Firstly, God has defined rules, following which is necessary for one to be called a Muslim. @Decision rests with God: yes, indeed, it is Him SWT who has taught humans that who are Muslims and who aren't.
State didn't formulate any new law but adopted one from the religion.

Secondly, I think everybody knows very well the preaching Qadyanis are doing, and the amount of money they are investing (nokri aur chhokri as it were), still after a century the so called "truth" has enlightened hearts of tens of millions (which is believed to be an exaggerated number including poorest of the poor who are trapped for money as well). [Qadyanis were declared non-Muslims in 1973, and MGA Qadyani announced prophacy in 1889... they were allowed to nurture for roughly about 90 years before officially getting ruled out of Muslim Ummah]
As far as your wishful thinking about Qadyanis growing in numbers is concerned, as a matter of fact I will like to elaborate that Qadyanis are only banned in Muslim countries, which makes 1.5b of the world population. So you are left more that 3/4 of the world population to experiment with. . . Go and enjoy safe sailing in non-Muslim countries rather than making issues and ranting against the laws of Muslim countries.

PS: I'm in favour of all equal rights for all Pakistanis, be religious or other. There is a difference between someone practicing his own religion and someone hitting directly at others religion, which should be taken care of.
 
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PAKISTAN: THE AHMADIS
Wretched Of The Land


The attack on their mosques exposes the raw wound that is Ahmadi existence here
AMIR MIR
in Lahore


Ahmadis In Pakistan

Population: 4 million

Headquarters: Rabwah town, Punjab

Status: Since 1974, declared non-Muslim

What they can't do: Call themselves Muslim, offer prayers in mosques, quote Quranic verses in their newspaper, propagate their religion.


Threats from fundamentalists: They say it is ‘permissible to kill' them. Some 2,000 died in riots in 1953, suffered untold misery in 1974. The attacks on them claimed nearly 100 lives.


Ahmadis In India


Population: Estimated to be from 60,000 to 1 million

Headquarters: Qadian in Gurdaspur district, Punjab, where the sect was established.


Why low numbers: Partition saw the bulk of Ahmadis becoming citizens of Pakistan.


Status: Several high court verdicts say they must be treated as Muslim


What they can't do: They don't sit on the Muslim Personal Law Board, but are governed by Muslims.


map_20100614.jpg






As the international media frenetically reported the simultaneous terror attacks on the two mosques of the Ahmadi community in Lahore, Pakistani journalists countenanced an arrantly absurd situation—they were required to eschew the M-word under law. In their dispatches, as poignant as any, the two Ahmadi mosques became mere “places of worship”. Between the two nomenclatures—mosque and place of worship—lies the gulf separating Muslims from non-Muslims in Pakistan. The wishes of Ahmadis do not matter, their own definition of themselves as Muslim counts for nothing. The Constitution of Pakistan declares them as non-Muslim and proscribes the use of the word mosque to describe their places of worship. The defiant can flout the law at their own peril.

Preceding this lexical imposition are decades of religious persecution and threats of violence that prompted many Ahmadis to conceal their identity. But the attack on the two Ahmadi mosques, Baitul Noor and Darul Zikr, in which nearly a hundred people were killed, could well become the cataclysmic event for Ahmadis. Indeed, 24 hours after the attack, Pakistani TV journalist Wajahat S. Khan wrote on his blog, “I am an Ahmadi, my name is Khan. There are four million of me in Pakistan. This Islamic Republic is the only state in the world which has officially declared me to be a non-Muslim. Why? It’s simple. I am an Ahmadi.”

Khan then went on to give voice to the community’s wounds. “Ordinances have been passed against me.... In 1974, a parliament I had voted for adopted a law that outlawed me. You might have noted the effects of that today. As my attackers unleashed their wrath, television networks I watch and love got the location of the bloodshed all wrong. What I call a mosque, they called it a place of worship,” Khan wrote. No doubt, the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) targeted the hapless Ahmadis believing it could win them the endorsement of fundamentalist Muslims to whom the creed of the Ahmadis is anathema. But the TTP’s reprehensible act seems to have only emboldened community leaders to assert their identity and protest vociferously against their persecution in which the Pakistani state is complicit.

On May 30 thus, for the first time ever, leaders of the Ahmadi community held an official press conference in Lahore, where their leaders lamented the discrimination they have faced since 1974—the year in which they were declared non-Muslim. Their list of complaints is heart-rending—they have failed to arrange a major public gathering since 1984 even though groups wanting to kill Ahmadis are routinely allowed to hold meetings; the government has banned their azaan or call to prayers and proscribed them from publishing Quranic verses in the community newspaper, Al Fazal; and no punitive measures have been taken against those in society who have declared them “wajib-ul-qatal” (deserving to be killed).







Long before the cartographer drew a dividing line on the Indian subcontinent, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad established the sect of Ahmadis in Qadian, Punjab, towards the end of the 19th century. Essentially a reformist movement, Ahmad believed Islam had to be revitalised and propagated worldwide through peaceful means. His was a response, scholars say, to the challenges posed by the Christian and Arya Samaj missionaries.

Like other Muslims, Ahmadis too believe in the oneness of God, accept the Quran as their holy text and face the Kaaba during prayer. There’s one crucial difference, though. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed prophetic status as the Mahdi or Messiah, consequently making him a successor to Prophet Mohammed. This is contrary to the dominant Islamic belief, and the reason for the orthodox to hound the Ahmadi community. Though never really accepted by mainstream Muslims as their brethren, Ahmadi travails really began after Partition when some four million of them became Pakistani citizens overnight. Lahore and other cities witnessed rioting against the Ahmadis in 1953, apparently at the instigation of religious parties. Nearly 2,000 Ahmadis perished, prompting then governor-general Ghulam Muhammad to dismiss the federal cabinet and impose martial law.

Years of relative respite later, the Jamaat-e-Islami launched a violent campaign in 1974 against the Ahmadis following a clash between them and non-Ahmadis at the railway station of Rabwah, a town that’s the headquarter of the sect. The Jamaat agitation compelled the Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto government to amend the Constitution and define a Muslim “as a person who believes in the finality of the Prophet Mohammed”. In addition, the parliament adopted a law declaring Ahmadis to be non-Muslim. Under the Islamisation drive of President Gen Zia-ul-Haq, an ordinance was issued on April 26, 1984, that prohibited Ahmadis from preaching or professing their beliefs or posing as Muslim. They couldn’t call their places of worship mosques, pray in non-Ahmadi mosques, perform the Muslim call to prayer, quote the Quran or seek converts.

The situation continued to deteriorate for Ahmadis as different terror groups mushroomed post-9/11. Says Ahmadi leader Qamar Suleman, “All Pakistani extremist religious organisations are against Ahmadis.... Some groups even endorse the idea of killing Ahmadis, terming them infidels. Since no government has ever come down hard on the elements instigating violence, it cannot be absolved of the May 28 tragedy. After this attack, we are very scared. Some of us are thinking of leaving the country.”

There seems to be a design behind this orchestrated violence against Ahmadis. Pakistan human rights commission chairperson Asma Jahangir believes that the politics of fanning religious frenzy on the basis of sectarianism is intrinsically linked to creating an environment for breeding nurseries of terrorism. “It creates a culture of intolerance that is inimical to all democratic values,” she told Outlook. “It is not a matter of an ideological battle between the liberals and the rightists. If the scourge of terrorism is to be eliminated, it can only be done by defeating its fascist ideology and subscribing to undiluted democratic and civilised values.”

Indeed, for Pakistan to reclaim its liberal soul, it is important to consider the May 28 assault on Ahmadis, as its national newspaper The Daily Times suggested, as an assault on every Pakistani.
Most of the articles posted on this thread is intellectually risible and shamefully vacuous and this is sort off on the top the list for me . I acknowledge that there are wrongs in the moslim world and Pakistan in general but we can do better than to take indefensible positions based on false information, and to bash moslims/Pakistanis' on different platforms.

Ahmadis In Pakistan
Population: 4 million
That’s a grossly exaggerated figure. Ahmadis constitute 0.22% of the total population and the population of Pakistan is roughly around little more then 172 m. Do the math it’s not 4 million.
I am an Ahmadi, my name is Khan. There are four million of me in Pakistan. This Islamic Republic is the only state in the world which has officially declared me to be a non-Muslim. Why? It’s simple. I am an Ahmadi.

Mauritius was the first country to declare them non-Moslims in 1930's, followed by South Africa and Pakistan in 1974. Few years back Indonesia asked them to cease their activities as sect of Islam and if I am not mistaken KSA simply deport Ahmadis. They were declared non believers by World Moslim League in 1974.
No punitive measures have been taken against those in society who have declared them “wajib-ul-qatal” (deserving to be killed). .

A section of society might think that they are wajib-ul-qatal not the whole nation of Pakistan. And this section, keeps themselves busy killing each other more often than not. As for GOP, it has failed to protect its citizen no matter what religion they belong too.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad established the sect of Ahmadis in Qadian, Punjab, towards the end of the 19th century. Essentially a reformist movement, Ahmad believed Islam had to be revitalised and propagated worldwide through peaceful means. His was a response, scholars say, to the challenges posed by the Christian and Arya Samaj missionaries. .

Please name the scholars who claimed that its reformist movement. I can name a few foreign scholars, who have written extensively on the subject and debunked its perceived notion of being reformist. MGA was famous for his interfaith dialogue and the Jammat do routinely organize such events but in those events the emphasis is on Ahmadi-specific teaching, like rather then discussing Tawheed Vs Trinity, they did be arguing over Esa suvived the cross or not. I myself, had attended these interfaith events and never seen a non ahmadi scholar representing islam. only jammat representatives publicizing their own agenda under the banner of Islam.
Like other Muslims, Ahmadis too believe in the oneness of God, accept the Quran as their holy text and face the Kaaba during prayer. There’s one crucial difference, though. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed prophetic status as the Mahdi or Messiah, consequently making him a successor to Prophet Mohammed. .

This is quite comical. Oneness of God is accepted by every major organized religion. Admadis' do believe in Quran that was revealed to MGA not prophet Muhammad. MGA claimed to be multiple personalities, from Maryan to Esa, messiah or mehdi to prophet ...i don’t think one can hold all these status in one lifetime but anyways to each one their own. More importantly anyone who doesn’t believe in MGA is infidel, so technically only the chanda paying members are moslims.
the Jamaat-e-Islami launched a violent campaign in 1974 against the Ahmadis following a clash between them and non-Ahmadis at the railway station of Rabwah, a town that’s the headquarter of the sect.

The clash was between students and residents of Rabwah who were basically Ahamdis’ at the railway station and has nothing to do with Jamaat-e-Islami or any pro conservative party. The religious parties politicize the situation which resulted in parliament declaring the community a minority after much deliberation.
Under the Islamisation drive of President Gen Zia-ul-Haq, an ordinance was issued on April 26, 1984, that prohibited Ahmadis from preaching or professing their beliefs or posing as Muslim. They couldn’t call their places of worship mosques, pray in non-Ahmadi mosques, perform the Muslim call to prayer, quote the Quran or seek converts. .

That ordinance was passed because the Ahmadiyaa Community failed to acknowledge their status as a minority.
The situation continued to deteriorate for Ahmadis as different terror groups mushroomed post-9/11. Says Ahmadi leader Qamar Suleman, “All Pakistani extremist religious organizations are against Ahmadis.... Some groups even endorse the idea of killing Ahmadis, terming them infidels. Since no government has ever come down hard on the elements instigating violence, it cannot be absolved of the May 28 tragedy. After this attack, we are very scared. Some of us are thinking of leaving the country.” .

Although I condone killing of any innocent in any society, but Ahmadiyya community aren’t silent sufferers nor the reactions against them exists in a vacuum. For instance Jammat position over the war on terror after 9/11 and support of Israel is factually incorrect as well as rhetorically inflammatory to moslims and puts the Ahmadiyaa community under a lot of heat.
 
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I've not said that the law against the Ahmedis does not exist. But the law is wrong as well.

Slavery was lawful by law as well, people rose up against it too.

Freedom is always subjective and state laws are define considering the interest of majority.
 
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Mauritius was the first country to declare them non-Moslims in 1930's, followed by South Africa and Pakistan in 1974. Few years back Indonesia asked them to cease their activities as sect of Islam and if I am not mistaken KSA simply deport Ahmadis. They were declared non believers by World Moslim League in 1974.

Can you quote a S African or Mauritius law which bars anyone from religious freedom?

About the rest of Muslim countries you mentioned and countries in the World Moslim League, anyone that has a particularly rosy human rights record? Isn't that the real problem that they posses a rather under developed mindset?
 
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Can you quote a S African or Mauritius law which bars anyone from religious freedom?

About the rest of Muslim countries you mentioned, anyone that has a particularly rosy human rights record? Isn't that the problem?

where there r minority rights, meesna is always there, bhai jaan please vist next door neighbour india!!please i beg you, you are needed there more than any other place capish???
 
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where there r minority rights, meesna is always there, bhai jaan please vist next door neighbour india!!please i beg you, you are needed there more than any other place capish???

How? Have we fixed our problems?
 
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Most of the articles posted on this thread is intellectually risible and shamefully vacuous and this is sort off on the top the list for me . I acknowledge that there are wrongs in the moslim world and Pakistan in general but we can do better than to take indefensible positions based on false information, and to bash moslims/Pakistanis' on different platforms.

i beg your pardon, if you think i am rude here, just in a modest way asking you, cannot you just spell muslim correctly???
 
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How? Have we fixed our problems?

does the notion of human rights belong to pakistan alone??, dont you care the hundreds of muslims, sikhs, christians dying there?? arnt they human

i want to see your human rights not in a narrow but in a diversified manner??
 
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does the notion of human rights belong to pakistan alone??, dont you care the hundreds of muslims, sikhs, christians dying there?? arnt they human

i want to see your human rights not in a narrow but in a diversified manner??

Let's fix our home then we can tell others with more conviction. Charag talay andhera is no good.
 
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For instance Jammat position over the war on terror after 9/11 and support of Israel is factually incorrect as well as rhetorically inflammatory to moslims and puts the Ahmadiyaa community under a lot of heat.

Can you give some evidence or references to what you are talking about here?

We have been through this Israel business and nothing came out of it if I remember correctly.
 
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does the notion of human rights belong to pakistan alone??, dont you care the hundreds of muslims, sikhs, christians dying there?? arnt they human

i want to see your human rights not in a narrow but in a diversified manner??

Instead of quoting from your propaganda book, why don't you point to laws which discriminate against any of the religions groups you talk about?

There may be instances of minority rights being trampled upon by mobs or criminals. You could maybe stretch facts and claim that government machinery was used to attach minorities. However all of these instances have been done in contravention of the law.

I am an Indian. That is what my passport says. My religion is not mentioned . I have never been asked to denounce any one's beliefs.
 
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Live and let live. We are on this planet for a short time, our prophet (PBUH) preached tolerance, we should heed that lesson. Regardless of caste, creed or belief all are after all creation of the divine, it is said nothing happens without god’s will..

Who are we to question his infinite wisdom.
 
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