Ahmadis in Pakistan

[Zarvan]

I have never understood this, why does any religion have to enforce that he/she/it is the last messenger of God ? Why is Islamic principles on the same so rigid to the extent of being intolerant on this matter ? Every miracle we see in this world is by God's will. This means that every occurence of a miracle is carried out through some messenger of God, not necessarily in flesh and blood. Why are Muslims so insistent on the same that a messenger who carried God's miracle some 1300 years ago was the final one ?

Sir because he was the final PROPHET SAW and no new rule and or law will come so every one on this earth has to follow Islam and Islam only

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

I have never understood this, why does any religion have to enforce that he/she/it is the last messenger of God ? Why is Islamic principles on the same so rigid to the extent of being intolerant on this matter ? Every miracle we see in this world is by God's will. This means that every occurence of a miracle is carried out through some messenger of God, not necessarily in flesh and blood. Why are Muslims so insistent on the same that a messenger who carried God's miracle some 1300 years ago was the final one ?

What you need to understand is that Islam wants that every person should get the message of Islam, accepting it or rejecting it is another matter. If someone spreads the wrong message by will, he is likely to be punished...

 

[Awesome]

Wrong, the basic tenets Islam do not mention that you have to believe that Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) was the last prophet, you only have to say the kalma tayeba and done.

It says so in the Quran.

33:40
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things

Regardless of that, if Ahmediyya community wants to believe Seal means "Certified" then they are welcome to do so.

The Quran also says:

109:6
To you be your religion, and to me my religion

Let Ahmadis argue their point of view, I'll argue mine. There is no need to kill Ahmedis since I think with the simple knowledge of Arabic grammar I can make a case against their position. But unless Ahmedis come in my face with that assertion, I do not even need to do any such thing as well. We should live and die for Pakistan, be together in harmony...

The only way I would need to kill Ahmedis for stating their point of view is when I don't believe in Khatamun Nabiyyun myself and go like "Oh crap, these guys are about to shatter my world view I must silence them". If you believe in the finality of the Prophet then so be it, good for you, each time somebody says so different point them to this Ayat. Case closed.

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

It says so in the Quran.

33:40
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things

Regardless of that, if Ahmediyya community wants to believe Seal means "Certified" then they are welcome to do so.

The Quran also says:

109:6
To you be your religion, and to me my religion

Let Ahmadis argue their point of view, I'll argue mine. There is no need to kill Ahmedis since I think with the simple knowledge of Arabic grammar I can make a case against their position. But unless Ahmedis come in my face with that assertion, I do not even need to do any such thing as well. We should live and die for Pakistan, be together in harmony...

The only way I would need to kill Ahmedis for stating their point of view is when I don't believe in Khatamun Nabiyyun myself and go like "Oh crap, these guys are about to shatter my world view I must silence them". If you believe in the finality of the Prophet then so be it, good for you, each time somebody says so different point them to this Ayat. Case closed.

Well, if you study the Islamic history, you will come to know that the first Caliph of Islam (ABU BAKR (R.A)) announced open war against the false prophets in his time...

 

[Awesome]

Well, if you study the Islamic history, you will come to know that the first Caliph of Islam (ABU BAKR (R.A)) announced open war against the false prophets in his time...

It doesn't matter. Today's world is much different. You go for wars, your religion would be declared a religion of lunatics and jo hain bhi woh bhi bhaag jayenge.

To us, the issue of Ahmediyya is the same as the issue of a separate religion. Let them say its the same religion, koi muzaikay wali baat nahi, we can always keep saying its separate. This is basic Freedom of speech 101. Right will win over the wrong and we are right, right?

Islam puts the duty on us to spread it. By killing Ahmedis you will harm Islam since all the sane people would run away from you. This world of today will not accept violence to spread a belief system. You will always fail in that duty to spread Islam through these methods.

 

[Perceptron]

Sir because he was the final PROPHET SAW and no new rule and or law will come so every one on this earth has to follow Islam and Islam only

Does Islam insist on Muhammad being the final prophet ? On what grounds is it being made that he is THE final one ? And why is it said that no one can follow him who is as great as him if not more than him ?

What you need to understand is that Islam wants that every person should get the message of Islam, accepting it or rejecting it is another matter. If someone spreads the wrong message by will, he is likely to be punished...

What is the message of Islam ? Isnt peace, tolerance and humanity the sole message that ought to be the Islamic gospel ? Then anyone who brings peace, preaches tolerance, and follows the principles of humanity in equal measure should be also someone with the same virtues of being a messenger of God. Why should those virtues end with Muhammad ?

 

[Awesome]

Does Islam insist on Muhammad being the final prophet ? On what grounds is it being made that he is THE final one ? And why is it said that no one can follow him who is as great as him if not more than him ?

I don't want this to turn into a debate on Islamic tenets but very briefly a Prophet in Islam, is not a great man, but a chosen individual by Allah, who gets messages from Allah through Angels and then spreads that message to his people.

The message in the Quran clearly states that Muhammad is the end of all the Prophets. In Islamic tradition its believed that Abraham's entire lineage that forms the Jewish (and of course Christian) and Muslim Prophets, all preached similar messages to Islam however in due time people changed them and false Prophets also emerged within their midst. So this time around they were told, this is it. The next time you get a message from Allah would be when you meet your maker on the day of judgment.

What is the message of Islam ? Isnt peace, tolerance and humanity the sole message that ought to be the Islamic gospel ? Then anyone who brings peace, preaches tolerance, and follows the principles of humanity in equal measure should be also someone with the same virtues of being a messenger of God. Why should those virtues end with Muhammad ?

There are no issues with virtues. Islam has its saints. You see when you say you're a Prophet, you then speak for God and you have the power to change the religion on God's orders. God who doesn't make a mistake already said there will be no more.

However my argument is not to change Islam. My argument is to change yourself. Whether or not Ahmedis believe in a new prophet or whether they believe in something else - It doesn't have an impact on Islam as long as you are assured of the truth. Demonizing them however weakens Pakistan. You're making an enemy out of millions upon millions of Pakistanis.

 

[apophenia]

@ LEGENDARY WARRIOR

Those wars weren’t waged because of the claims of prophethood but because those false prophets actively seek to destroy the Islamic empire.

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

Does Islam insist on Muhammad being the final prophet ? On what grounds is it being made that he is THE final one ? And why is it said that no one can follow him who is as great as him if not more than him ?

Read Asim Aquil's post = http://www.defence.pk/forums/national-political-issues/60385-ahmadis-pakistan-81.html#post2229365. The verse that Asim quotes is from Quran which clearly states that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the last prophet of Allah.

What is the message of Islam ? Isnt peace, tolerance and humanity the sole message that ought to be the Islamic gospel ? Then anyone who brings peace, preaches tolerance, and follows the principles of humanity in equal measure should be also someone with the same virtues of being a messenger of God. Why should those virtues end with Muhammad ?

Well in case of Islam, you need to believe each and every word of the religion to be a Muslim and in Islam Risaalat (Prophethood) is one of the basic and most important beliefs of Islam.

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

@ LEGENDARY WARRIOR

Those wars weren’t waged because of the claims of prophethood but because those false prophets actively seek to destroy the Islamic empire.

So you think that by saying that they is another prophet after Muhammad (PBUH), they are helping Islam???

 

[apophenia]

@ LEGENDARY WARRIOR
Does it help Islam when lunatics murder innocents because of their different sets?

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

@ LEGENDARY WARRIOR
Does it help Islam when lunatics murder innocents because of their different sets?

lunatics must be eliminated so that innocents are not misguided...

 

[Perceptron]

I don't want this to turn into a debate on Islamic tenets but very briefly a Prophet in Islam, is not a great man, but a chosen individual by Allah, who gets messages from Allah through Angels and then spreads that message to his people.

The message in the Quran clearly states that Muhammad is the end of all the Prophets. In Islamic tradition its believed that Abraham's entire lineage that forms the Jewish (and of course Christian) and Muslim Prophets, all preached similar messages to Islam however in due time people changed them and false Prophets also emerged within their midst. So this time around they were told, this is it. The next time you get a message from Allah would be when you meet your maker on the day of judgment.

Don't you think it is too uptight to consider that God's message ends around 1300 years ago which is then bottled and inked into a book which the followers adhere to ? Don't you think that if and when God would give a series of messages to a single person at a single point in time, he means to say that whatever he wants to say and to whom he wants to say ends here and now, which tests the very belief that tenets in the universe evolve over time ? This means that there is no notion of evolution of thought in the very tenets that brought forth the teachings of Islam.

There are no issues with virtues. Islam has its saints. You see when you say you're a Prophet, you then speak for God and you have the power to change the religion on God's orders. God who doesn't make a mistake already said there will be no more.

Again the question, any critical thinker will see that a messenger solely limited to a single time-frame can bring forth a message only for a particular epoch. How do we know that the message is Universal across all epochs until it has been tested at every stage of an epoch ? And a message that does not evolve with an epoch is going to remain stagnant and murky attracting the likes.

 

[Awesome]

Don't you think it is too uptight to consider that God's message ends around 1300 years ago which is then bottled and inked into a book which the followers adhere to ?

How much guidance do you need? If the world ends tomorrow, 1400 years is not so bad.

Don't you think that if and when God would give a series of messages to a single person at a single point in time, he means to say that whatever he wants to say and to whom he wants to say ends here and now, which tests the very belief that tenets in the universe evolve over time ? This means that there is no notion of evolution of thought in the very tenets that brought forth the teachings of Islam.

But God said its forever.

Again the question, any critical thinker will see that a messenger solely limited to a single time-frame can bring forth a message only for a particular epoch. How do we know that the message is Universal across all epochs until it has been tested at every stage of an epoch ? And a message that does not evolve with an epoch is going to remain stagnant and murky attracting the likes.

You see you're making the classic mistake Islamists make. There is a difference between Quran and Islam. Allah has guaranteed the Quran to remain untouched forever - he gives no such guarantee for the religion itself. What that means is, that since a lot of things are told in very broad terms in the Quran, it remains possible that our human understanding would need to evolve with time and incorporate our newer understandings within the parameters set by the Quran.

For example, Quran commands "Pray". But it was us human beings that figured out how to pray by looking at how The Prophet used to pray and it goes on till today.

So lets say that its not as rigid as you're making it out to be just because Islamists are this rigid.

 

[Zarvan]

Does Islam insist on Muhammad being the final prophet ? On what grounds is it being made that he is THE final one ? And why is it said that no one can follow him who is as great as him if not more than him ?

What is the message of Islam ? Isnt peace, tolerance and humanity the sole message that ought to be the Islamic gospel ? Then anyone who brings peace, preaches tolerance, and follows the principles of humanity in equal measure should be also someone with the same virtues of being a messenger of God. Why should those virtues end with Muhammad ?

Sir in Islam Hazrat Muhammad SAW is the final PROPHET and the LAW and the BOOK which he brought would never
be changed and his law is now applicable for all times to come and that is why Islam is also the fastest growing Religion in the world