‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

[Armstrong]

the failure to understand the meaning & purpose of religion

That's the totalitarian instinct speaking (the voice of Plato)


Meaning and purpose is best left to the individual adherent - Why the need for a monolithic expression?? This is an insight to your refusal to acknowledge variety of Science and experience -- Don't misunderstand, from the most benevolent of motivations, you find the monolithic expression desirable, sure got that -- but as long as the individual's relationship with their understanding of Meaning and Purpose of religion in their own life, their experience, is denied, the unity you seek, will remain illusion -- Forcing the experience of one's self the only experience for others, seems to me. unsustainable, and silly to attempt

Indeed it should & no where did I call for or imply a 'monolithic expression' for anything; I am a firm believer in Nietzsche's Perspectivism & your quoted comment itself is a perfect example of the same - We truly see what we want to see !

At the same time one feels compelled to point out that having a polylithic expression in itself is both self-contradictory & devoid of any of the moral high ground that one would assume it to purport for it to exists for it too defines itself in terms of being the opposite of a monolithic expression whereby instead of being inclusive a conspicuously fundamental exclusivity is purported & because it uses nothing to measure itself or others by in a don't ask don't tell policy no matter how illogical the opinion maybe, it can neither be good nor bad, nor sound or unsound & not moral or immoral; which means that it is, at the end of the day, nothing, where unity is found on having the opinion that we would have no opinion.

 

[Armstrong]

Yes, indeed -- BTW, do find yourself being persuasive with this line of reasoning? Oh, wait, "reasoning" that's neither Deen or Duniya, because they are both the same and since......

Persuasive to whom ? A target audience that throws around words like 'reasoning' amongst others with such reckless indifference is hardly the lot any amount of persuasion is going to work before the former is evened out first.

No Islam does not ask you to compartmentalize deen or dunya because if it did it would be saying that both deen and dunya are conflicting ideas. That is not the case, they go hand in hand sort of life ying to yang with the whole becoming a perfect momin. Prophet Muhammad PBUH once said the learned believer is held in higher regard than the devout believer. The meaning behind this was that a Muslim who also holds knowledge of dunya is better than a Muslim who only holds knowledge to deen. That comes back to need for there to be a balance between the two. The learned believer has both so he is held in higher regard than someone who only focuses on deen. They however are not the same thing because if they were would not just being really knowledge in deen automatically be the equivalent of being knowledge of dunya??

Not it won't because there is no such thing as 'knowledge' of deen or 'knowledge' of dunya; its one & the same marred by this illogical division that we've created because of our perception.

And I would interpret that hadith differently.

 

[muse]

What do you think about secularism as it relates to Pakistan??

Secular and Secularism though related are not the same thing

as an "Ism" it is an ideology - that postulates a role for sciences or knowledge that is not, religious knowledge or science - in my view that world and Pakistani society is so complex that secularism is a must.

However, there are two distinct kinds, so far as I am persuaded - in objective secularism, religion has a social role in culture and in conscience -- and SUBJECTIVE Secularism, where in Religion has no societal role - obviously I cannot find merit in subjective secularism.

a polylithic expression in itself is both self-contradictory & devoid of any of the moral high ground that one would assume it to purport for it to exists for it too defines itself in terms of being the opposite of a monolithic expression whereby instead of being inclusive a conspicuously fundamental exclusivity is purported & because it uses nothing to measure itself or others by in a don't ask don't tell policy no matter how illogical the opinion maybe, it can neither be good nor bad, nor sound or unsound & not moral or immoral; which means that it is, at the end of the day, nothing, where unity is found on having the opinion that we would have no opinion.

What?? Is that really the best you can do at crafting a sentence? Anyway, how do you justify denying the validity of someone's experience to themselves?

Persuasive to whom ?

Come on now, don't play too cool for school

 

[Armstrong]

So it's divine guidance?? If yes, then what does "secular" mean in the context of Muslims and Islam?

It doesn't mean anything !

You have to use "Human" reasoning to understand the "Divine"?? Doesn't that make the divine entirely human??

On the contrary this is where my oft repeated question becomes ever so relevant - What is reason ?

Answer that & you'd have the answer to the above.

 

[Sugarcane]

مہربانی کرکے ذرا بتا دیں کہ جو لکھ اور پڑھ نہیں سکتا اسے کیا کہتے ہیں۔۔۔؟؟؟؟؟؟

Please check these verses and tell me how one can ask illiterate to read, and why God is laying and saying to Prophet (PBUH) "He, Who taught use of pen"

96:1-4 Read with the name of your Lord who created (every thing), He created man from a clot of blood. Read, and your Lord is the most gracious, He Who taught (the use of) the pen.

How you can dictate someone to write if he don't know?

25:5 They also said, "Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night."

Reset of your Post is same which you are repeating again & again. I told you if you read & re-read Quran for guidance with believe that if God says it's complete than surely you will get answer, and you will get ride of this sectarian sh!t. Otherwise, yes nothing is in Quran it's book of stories.

Regarding Hadith - Justify 638 and Prove that Prophet (PBUH) was kind & merciful and Islam is religion of peace.

 

[KingMamba]

Persuasive to whom ? A target audience that throws around words like 'reasoning' amongst others with such reckless indifference is hardly the lot any amount of persuasion is going to work before the former is evened out first.



Not it won't because there is no such thing as 'knowledge' of deen or 'knowledge' of dunya; its one & the same marred by this illogical division that we've created because of our perception.

And I would interpret that hadith differently.

I am not convinced and that is just one of many hadiths where it pertains to knowledge. Anyway all this arguing has made me hungry!!

 

[Armstrong]

What?? Is that really the best you can do at crafting a sentence? Anyway, how do you justify denying the validity of someone's experience to themselves?

Your failure to understand what was being implied is indicative of the line of reasoning that you've taken from the beginning.

I don't justify anything or deny anyone anything; God knows how you keep on interpreting 'Perspectivism' to continue asserting to the contrary !

 

[Sugarcane]

So it's divine guidance?? If yes, then what does "secular" mean in the context of Muslims and Islam?

You have to use "Human" reasoning to understand the "Divine"?? Doesn't that make the divine entirely human??

First clarify what's your point of view about secularism. What's the purpose? and what are your intended results? So, that i can comment to the point.

"Divine" - I assumed here is God. I can't directly interact with him, So, i am assuming that "Quran" is the guidance. And yes, when i read this guidance i have to use intellect & human reasoning to understand.

 

[Armstrong]

I am not convinced and that is just one of many hadiths where it pertains to knowledge. Anyway all this arguing has made me hungry!!

Mamba tuuu bhii Buttt hii haiii !

 

[muse]

By asserting a monolithic expression of religious experience and therefore religiosity (Deen the same as Duniya), you are denying variety of experience and expression. You then assert that you do not justify anything while denying the validity of an individual's experience to themselves (Meaning and Purpose of Religion) - or may be you are just having some fun running us in tautologies? Badmashi? on PDF?

 

[Sugarcane]

Well tell me why he is stealing if he is not poor?? If he is not in need he should not be stealing to begin with, the cutting of the hand is supposed to serve as a detterent to evil men who steal just to steal. Those who never steal like you and me have nothing to worry about. Murder can be forgiven because the affected find it within their hearts to forgive the man, sometimes people get angry and do things they regret later. Sometimes before the deceased dies he forgives his murderer out of his own heart. In Islam it talks about forgiveness many times, even Allah almighty is so merciful that he is willing to forgive so many sins if we whole heartily ask. That being said that does not mean a murderer can continue to kill after being forgiven the first time around. Once someone becomes a menace to the safety of other citizens in Islam they are executed for the betterment of the people. There is precedent for this in Hadith.

So, You don't want to make example of murderer? or you don't want to give a chance to thief to return stolen thing and ask for forgiveness?

BTW - I am 100% confident that Chopping of hands is misinterpretation and i can back my claim

 

[Dubious]

Don't follow to anyone sect .... Who are saying to you this ... Just follow Quran & Sunnah ... Sunnah proved from Sahih Hadith ... Sahih Hadith are already verified ... Simple

@Patriots Yahin tou hum keh ray hain! Itni dayr baad samajh aai? and you went and just dragged ISLAM PROPHET AND EVERYTHING ELSE EVERYWHERE!

English k liye aap mujhay tution day dain ... Because ye meri madri zuban nahi hai ... I don't care k koi meri english ko accha samjhay ya bura ..

@Patriots Thank you for admitting! ACHAY aur buray ki baat nai hai...Naa koi aap ko samajh para hai naa aap kissi ko samajh paray hain!

@Talon your like minded who calls to muslims with bad names !!!!

@Patriots mein nay kiya kaha muslmanoun ko? Bus itna kay tamasha band kero...agar yeh muslmanoun ka naam badnaam kerrta hai then SORRY!

Hahahahaha you rightly said ... Now tell me yourself that breakfast isn't important..????

Yahan breakfast ki importance nai dikhi jari...Itna poocha jara hai kay breakfast kay begayr insaan insaan hota hai kay nai? zinda rah sakta hai kay nai=

 

[muse]

It doesn't mean anything !

That's interesting, because you say you employ human reasoning to understand the Divine - now your human reasoning is composed of experience and training (education) that is not exclusively religious - right?? Obviously

So it seems secular does mean a lot when it comes to Muslims and Islam, I mean if we take what you say about your use of human reasoning at face value as being truthful

 

[haviZsultan]

The potential benefits for Pakistan with secularism and failure of the Islamist system:

In recent days I was having a very constructive debate with a very knowledgeable person about the benefits of Secularism for a society such as Pakistan, where people are judged by how much or how little people follow their religion. Here imposing ones brand of Islam on the other is common and I argued for Secularism while this person argued for the intricacies of Islamic law.


I have already written an article on secularism and will not go into detail but here I will present the argument for secularism in points compared to the disadvantages of a poorly functioning "Islamic Republic" which may turn out to be very useful.



Problems with a dysfunctional "Islamic Republic"

Misuse of laws meant to safeguard Islam for the personal interests of people-ie the Blasphemy law to frame innocent Muslims, Christians and Hindus on false charges of blasphemy in order to settle disputes.

{Qoute} An example of how this law is misused was the case of Mohammad Imran who was arrested in Faisalabad for blasphemy on the 28th of October 2007. He was falsely blamed because of a personal argument. After being arrested he was first tortured by the police, then the inmates and later he was placed in solitary confinement without anyone looking after his injuries. He was only released in April 2009 after being declared innocent. {Qoute}

No laws for the rich and powerful. All laws apply for the weak. For example a rich man can drink or do whatever he wants despite not being allowed to do so in his religion, without any fear... even rape women without ever being punished but a poor man is always punished. Is this justice?

{QUOTE}Those before you went astray, for, when one of the committed a crime and he was a great man, they would not punish him, and when he was a poor man they would execute the punishment (Bu: 86:12){QUOTE}

Differences in the belief of Islam-which Islam do we want. What do we do if some factions do not agree with the Islam we are currently following? Should it be Wahabism, Sufism, Deobandi or Hanafi Islam? How will we deal with differing interpretations which will cause more and more confusion?


When religion gets infused into society, fanaticism and terrorism are only by-products. This is why religion should be a personal matter kept to a person's house and his place of worship. It should never be infused into governance and the state.



Muslims killing Muslims. The divide caused by the differences in our beliefs has caused a vast chasm among the Muslims. This chasm is so great that it is now leading to us killing each other. Not a day passes in Pakistan when a Muslim is not killed by another Muslim. The Taliban, Jundullah, Sipah E Sahaba, Lashker E Janghvi, Sipah E Mohammad... what else? In distant Norway there's Anders Behring Breivik. Infusing religion into politics has only led to death and destruction.



People begin using the excuse of religion to increase their power and authority. For example there are over 30 Taliban commanders in the tribal belts each vying for power and influence. In the end the struggle for Islam becomes a cruel struggle for power and influence.



When a country decides to judge its people by how much or how little they follow their religion it fails to focus on other important things such as science, education, economy and growth. Ignoring these sectors has often led to decline in Islamic societies. It is causing Pakistan to decline today with the GDP growth rate that is incapable of creating new jobs for a rising population.



Islamist thought can only cause gradual factionalism and division as people get divided into sects and various groups while each religious group crowds to his or her own religious group for protection decreasing people to people contact between sects and religions. For example the blasphemy laws in Pakistan. A man was shot for questioning a man-made law that has led to the murder of innocent muslims, christians and hindus alike on false charges of blasphemy. The law simply cannot be erased but it can only get worse because of Islamist influence who refuse to allow any changes to the law. What is next? Declaring all Hindus Kaffir and declaring them wajib ul qatil?


Despite trying to impose Islam for over 60 years Pakistan has miserably failed. Today the rich can get away with any crime. Bribes are taken and given with impunity and justice can be sold. Pakistan has failed to impose Islam in every single aspect. Pakistanis have free access to any website, the younger generation can have intercourse when it likes with streets such as Napier in Karachi and Heera Mandi in Lahore. Drinks are easily available. No law in reality has been imposed. Pakistan is a broke, failed Islamic Republic in every sense of the word. Isn't it better to stop trying to impose religion on everyone now and just give up?



More than a Billion Muslims live in abject poverty. Has having an "Islamic Republic" helped them in any way? Is it more important to give the poor man food and shelter rather than telling him how to behave in his daily life?

Benefits of Secularism.

By allowing freedom and giving each man his dignity we give everyone their rights. A person has the right to believe what he or she wishes and can stand for whatever he believes in. Islam itself allows us this freedom:

{QUOTE}"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust worthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. " (Qur'an 2:256)] {QUOTE}



Secularism will not degrade Islam but will instead allow it to flourish as secularism means the equal treatment of each and every religion. By equally treating Muslims we do away with biases a non religious or non-muslim resident would suffer yet we do not discriminate against the Muslims.



Secularism will do away with the problems in an Islamist system relating to which 'Islam' to impose when Muslims are divided into so many various sects and groups each believing something different. Here everyone will be equal.



Secularism if widely accepted by the Nation, will prevent commanders from using religion for their own gains and power. When the people will make religion a personal matter religious violence is sure to decline, allowing us to create a tolerant Nation. Something we currently lack.



Secularism will actually cause the growth of Islam and its evolution. In the past our rulers won the respect of minorities and their people and as a result Islam spread far and wide. Today we have forgotten the very actions of these leaders.

{Qoute}Taxation in the Caliphate is on excess wealth and not income, and there are no regressive taxes like VAT. The only taxes on companies are the agricultural land taxes (ushur and kharaj) that are a percentage of the agricultural produce or the land value. Non-agricultural companies do not pay this. Muslim owned companies will also pay the alms tax (zakat), but non-Muslim companies are exempt from this.

Non-Muslim men must pay a nominal tax called Jizya that gives them full citizenship rights, exempting them from National Service and taxes specific to Muslims such as zakat . Jizya is means tested and there are different bands for different levels of wealth. Caliph Omar imposed three bands for the Jizya tax - 4 dinars (£108) for the rich, 2 dinars (£54) for the middle class and 1 dinar (£27) for the poor. The Jizya tax rate is much lower than that of zakat, therefore the tax burden of non-Muslims is lower than that of Muslims in the Caliphate. {QUOTE}



Secularism will allow us to concentrate on bigger and better things. Like science, technology, culture and education which are much needed in Muslim states. Secularism has its obvious benefits because when religion is out of the equation we are not stuck on questions like the height of the shalwar.



Today Muslims are trying to kill each other and are at each others throats. Isn't anything better than Muslims blowing Muslims up? Shouldn't we try another system, something that actually works now? According to stats around 1 Million or more Muslims were killed (Most were killed by Muslims themselves) in the past 10 years. Isn't it time to reflect and judge whether the Islamist's system is actually working for us?



Secularism does not eliminate Islam or destroy it in anyway. People believing Islam cannot thrive under a secular system must ask the same question of 14 Million Muslims living in Europe. Secularism offers equality to everyone. This is the basic ideal of Secularism.

Benefits of Secularism for Pakistan (In point Format)

There are clear benefits of this concept. Also if we impose Wahabism we anger the Sufi's, with Sufism the wahabis and so is the case with any school. It is better to accept our differences and let the various religions thrive. Also for 60+ years we could not implement the Islam we wanted and the rich can get free after committing any crime. This is no justice. Rather than making a mockery of the Islamic system by calling ourselves Islamic republic we should abandon the name altogether. We are some of the worst people. There is no Islam in us.

 

[KingMamba]

Mamba tuuu bhii Buttt hii haiii !

Just the appetite perhaps. I remember I had a Butt friend growing up here from Pakistan, I do not know if he was Kashmiri though.