‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

[Armstrong]

By asserting a monolithic expression of religious experience and therefore religiosity (Deen the same as Duniya), you are denying variety of experience and expression. You then assert that you do not justify anything while denying the validity of an individual's experience to themselves (Meaning and Purpose of Religion) - or may be you are just having some fun running us in tautologies? Badmashi? on PDF?

On the contrary I never asserted a monolithic expression of religious experience nor did I deny the validity of an individual's experience to themselves for those are your deductions arrived at by an already made up mind at a point of your own choosing.

My only contention is that if there be such a thing as 'knowledge' then it just 'knowledge' without any of the prefixes or suffixes attached to it; its our perception that interprets it differently & bifurcates it between different compartments. Your use of the term 'Religious Sciences' &, if I may, 'Other Sciences' are two different manifestations of the same thing due to different perceptions of each individual & the limitations or the excellence of the human mind.

How in God's name does such a proclamation gets misconstrued to denying the variety of human experience & expression ? Do you even know what the word 'perspective' means & how many times I've used it !

Secondly my contention is that the meaning & purpose of religion is the 'human experience' which in itself is after all 'individual expression & experience' ! And that is precisely why, I believe, both the Deen & the Dunya should be taken in the same stride as manifestations of the same. If Deen is supposed to be 'Human Experience' then what the heck is 'Dunya' if not 'Human Experience' as well & if Deen isn't 'Human Experience' then what in God's name would doing yoga 5 times a day achieve for the present when apparently, any deity worth its salt, doesn't need it.

How does any of the above becomes me denying the validity of an individual's experience, opinion, expression or even me forcing anything on them ? Where did I forced them to conform or I'd pull the trigger ?

 

[muse]

Havi

Actually Secularism is a necessary requirement for the full flourishing of the experience of being Muslim

 

[Armstrong]

That's interesting, because you say you employ human reasoning to understand the Divine - now your human reasoning is composed of experience and training (education) that is not exclusively religious - right?? Obviously

So it seems secular does mean a lot when it comes to Muslims and Islam, I mean if we take what you say about your use of human reasoning at face value as being truthful

No it doesn't because its not obvious & that is precisely the reason why I asked you - What is reason ?

If I were to pick up a candellebra & bludgeon you to death with it - Would that be the unreasonable thing to do ? The wrong thing to do ? What in God's name do either of those two statements mean ?

 

[Sugarcane]

Havi

Actually Secularism is a necessary requirement for the full flourishing of the experience of being Muslim

Dude - There is lot of difference between "Muslim" and "Musalman" - Secularism exist in Islam but not in Mullahism

 

[muse]

My only contention is that if there be such a thing as 'knowledge' then it just 'knowledge' without any of the prefixes or suffixes attached to it; it our perception that interprets it differently & bifurcates it between different compartments. Your use of the term 'Religious Sciences' &, if I may, 'Other Sciences' are two different manifestations of the same thing due to different perceptions of each individual & the limitations or the excellence of the human mind.

So you decide for everybody else whether they may perceive and compartmentalize Knowledge?? You want it (knowledge, should it exist at all) to not be compartmentalized - got it - what about those of us who find such compartmentalization as convenient, useful and an organizational tool? Will you allow us this? If yes, no problem.

Secondly my contention is that the meaning & purpose of religion is the 'human experience' which in itself is after all 'individual expression & experience' ! And that is precisely why, I believe, both the Deen & the Dunya should be taken in the same stride as manifestations of the same. If Deen is supposed to be 'Human Experience' then what the heck is 'Dunya' if not 'Human Experience' as well & if Deen isn't 'Human Experience' then what in God's name would doing yoga 5 times a day achieve for the present when apparently, any deity worth its salt, doesn't need it.

Indeed if the validity of individual experience of Deen and Duniya (by definition variety) is what you are asserting then I do thank you for clarifying your position.

 

[CoolMinded]

Please check these verses and tell me how one can ask illiterate to read, and why God is laying and saying to Prophet (PBUH) "He, Who taught use of pen"



How you can dictate someone to write if he don't know?



Reset of your Post is same which you are repeating again & again. I told you if you read & re-read Quran for guidance with believe that if God says it's complete than surely you will get answer, and you will get ride of this sectarian sh!t. Otherwise, yes nothing is in Quran it's book of stories.

Regarding Hadith - Justify 638 and Prove that Prophet (PBUH) was kind & merciful and Islam is religion of peace.

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I Juz got this Forum ... and now it looks horrible .... Mr LoveIcon .... Man ... watz up ? ..... I Guess U dont Believe in Hadith right ?? if u dont then how wud u beleive in Quraan dude ... Quraan is what .. that Prophet Mohammad S.A.W told us .. as well as HE was UMMI .... of course everything Allah has mentioned us in Quraan ... but if it was possible to teach us by Quraan then Why Allah send us ANBYA Alaih Al Slam .... ?? t\juz common sense bro ... i juz wanna see what wud u say to me to read my words .. then we can go forward ..

Regards

 

[Armstrong]

So you decide for everybody else whether they may perceive and compartmentalize Knowledge?? You want it (knowledge, should it exist at all) to not be compartmentalized - got it - what about those of us who find such compartmentalization as convenient, useful and an organizational tool? Will you allow us this? If yes, no problem.

Indeed if the validity of individual experience of Deen and Duniya (by definition variety) is what you are asserting then I do thank you for clarifying your position.

Of course, whether I find the compartmentalization as absurd or perfectly logical, just as I wouldn't want to give you or anyone else the privilege to force anything down my throat, I won't give myself that privilege either.

 

[JonAsad]

Dude - There is lot of difference between "Muslim" and "Musalman" - Secularism exist in Islam but not in Mullahism

Did you mean difference between "Muslim" and "Momin" ?-

 

[JonAsad]

.
I Juz got this Forum ... and now it looks horrible .... Mr LoveIcon .... Man ... watz up ? ..... I Guess U dont Believe in Hadith right ?? if u dont then how wud u beleive in Quraan dude ... Quraan is what .. that Prophet Mohammad S.A.W told us .. as well as HE was UMMI .... of course everything Allah has mentioned us in Quraan ... but if it was possible to teach us by Quraan then Why Allah send us ANBYA Alaih Al Slam .... ?? t\juz common sense bro ... i juz wanna see what wud u say to me to read my words .. then we can go forward ..

Regards

Hi-
I agree-
The Quran is the message of Allah-
Hadith is the way of life of the one to whome Quran was reveiled to-

While some can afford to neglect the hadith- may involve the human factor- verification or authenticity or whatever- no muslim can risk conflicts with Quran- the same Quran revealed to us by the same man- -

The people talking about authenticating of the Ahadith must first verify the Quran itself-
Quran itself was not compiled by the Prophet himself- it was later on by Sahabas-

I had more to write about compilation of hadith but go to go- some thing come up- Later if thread remain open- -

 

[Sugarcane]

Did you mean difference between "Muslim" and "Momin" ?-

Musalman is generic - You can fit Momin, Mufti, Aytuallah

 

[Patriots]

Do not take down anything from me, and he who took down anything from me except the Qur'an, he should erase that and narrate from me, for there is no harm in it and he who attributed any falsehood to me -and Hammam said: I think he also said:" deliberately" -he should in fact find his abode in the Hell-Fire.
Sahih Muslim - The Book of Zuhd and Softening of Hearts: Book 56, Hadith 7702

How wonder those refer us to Ahadith who are continuously rejecting … Anyhow … We first look the condition of Hadith … Let see it:
This Hadith Imam Muslim has included in his book … And narrated by Abu Saeed Khadri (RA) … Accordance with the conditions of Muslim, although it is Sahih … But Imam Bukhari declared to him Malool … Malool means weak memory … That’s why he didn’t include this Hadith in Al Jamay Al Sahih … And knowledge of Imam Bukhari regarding Hadith is much more than Imam Muslim … There is no dispute at all regarding Hadith ..

A very important occasion of Hajj, thousands of companions were present and Prophet (PBUH) didn't mentioned any Hadith (Which as per you existed at that time) but said i have left Quran.

Kindly let me know how did we got informed that Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihe Wa Alehi Wa Sallam) didn’t mention any Hadith during occasion of Hajj..????
Second thing all sayings of Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihe Wa Alehi Wa Sallam) are called Hadith whether it was Hajj occasion or battle ground … So kindly explain me what kind of Hadith are you mentioning…..??

 

[Sugarcane]

.
I Juz got this Forum ... and now it looks horrible .... Mr LoveIcon .... Man ... watz up ? ..... I Guess U dont Believe in Hadith right ?? if u dont then how wud u beleive in Quraan dude ... Quraan is what .. that Prophet Mohammad S.A.W told us .. as well as HE was UMMI .... of course everything Allah has mentioned us in Quraan ... but if it was possible to teach us by Quraan then Why Allah send us ANBYA Alaih Al Slam .... ?? t\juz common sense bro ... i juz wanna see what wud u say to me to read my words .. then we can go forward ..

Regards

Thanks for taking time for registering.
1. I very well Believe on Prophet (PBUH) that's why I believe on Quran, Otherwise there is no reason on believing Quran.
2. Can you explain the Quranic verses which i quoted ???
4. On his last sermon as per "Shahih Muslim" - Prophet (PBUH) said "I have Left Book" why he said "book" if it was not in written form?
5. I am not saying that i don't believe in Hadith (I hope you know that word "Hadith" meaning is story/tale , But all i say is that i can't accept simply that every "Hadith" is Prophet's word unless i verify it under the guidance of Quran because i know Prophet (PBUH) can't go against Quran? Is it so difficult to understand?????
6. If every Hadith is saying of Prophet than why categorization of Hadith? Do you want me show you forged Hadith?

 

[Sugarcane]

Hi-
I agree-
The Quran is the message of Allah-
Hadith is the way of life of the one to whome Quran was reveiled to-

While some can afford to neglect the hadith- may involve the human factor- verification or authenticity or whatever- no muslim can risk conflicts with Quran- the same Quran revealed to us by the same man- -

The people talking about authenticating of the Ahadith must first verify the Quran itself-
Quran itself was not compiled by the Prophet himself- it was later on by Sahabas-

I had more to write about compilation of hadith but go to go- some thing come up- Later if thread remain open- -

Dude - There is huge difference between Quran & book of Hadith. Quran existed in chronological order when Prophet (PBUH) left (Probably with instruction to organize it). Later Usman (R.A.) compiled it and destroyed every-other writing, so people can't associate it with Quran. And it passed from generation to generation. On other hand first Book of Hadith was written after 200 years.

How wonder those refer us to Ahadith who are continuously rejecting … Anyhow … We first look the condition of Hadith … Let see it:
This Hadith Imam Muslim has included in his book … And narrated by Abu Saeed Khadri (RA) … Accordance with the conditions of Muslim, although it is Sahih … But Imam Bukhari declared to him Malool … Malool means weak memory … That’s why he didn’t include this Hadith in Al Jamay Al Sahih … And knowledge of Imam Bukhari regarding Hadith is much more than Imam Muslim … There is no dispute at all regarding Hadith ..

So, Can i assume that All Sahih Hadiths are not as much Sahih as claimed?

 

[Sugarcane]

Kindly let me know how did we got informed that Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihe Wa Alehi Wa Sallam) didn’t mention any Hadith during occasion of Hajj..????
Second thing all sayings of Rasoolullah (Sallah O Alaihe Wa Alehi Wa Sallam) are called Hadith whether it was Hajj occasion or battle ground … So kindly explain me what kind of Hadith are you mentioning…..??

Again you are confusing.... What i quoted was Sahih Hadith......

 

[JonAsad]

Musalman is generic - You can fit Momin, Mufti, Aytuallah

Well they might all rhyme except for aytullah- i disagree here-
But according to my knowledge-
I came believe The word "Momin" is exclusive to some one not necessarily an expert in religious or socio cultural affairs but a complete follower of Sunnah and Quran- and has some sort of divine relation with Allah- that relation distinguishe him from other forms of Muslims-