‘Admitting you are a secularist can get you killed in Pakistan’

[Patriots]

I believe on Qur^an more than you –

Oh! How did know you have more believe on Quran than me…????? Are you the god..???

It's you who are hell bent to prove that Qur^an is incomplete and difficult (which infect is denial of Qur^an).

Check my all posts I didn’t say this … I am just saying Sahih Ahadith are equal important … But you are still rejecting the Ahadith and disgracing the holy saying & actions of Holy Prophet (Sallah O Alaihe Wa Alehi Wa Sallam)

It's you who believe more on Haith(story/tale) and it's you who are saying that believe all stories without checking it's true or not.

I didn’t tell that you don’t have to check Hadith … Its true Hadith should be checked whether it is fabricated & weak or not !!!

It's you guys who disrespect Prophet (PBUH) by associating stories (Hadith) which are against the guidance of Qur^an as if Prophet (PBUH) himself was not following Qur^an.

First you should prove that Sahih Hadith is against of Quran … Because I say Sahih Hadith can never against to Quran ..

It's you who don't know that Prophet(PBUH) himself was following Religion of Abraham and Prayer, Fasting & Zakat all existed before Prophet (PBUH), He only restored those into original form –

Ok … Then kindly prove from Quran that what is original form of Prayer, Fasting & Zakat ..

It's you who disrespect Prophet (PBUH) and his companions by proving them cruel with your invented Hadith.

Firstly I never invented Hadith … Secondly according to Sahih Hadith can you prove them cruel….???????

It's you who disrespect Prophet (PBUH) by saying him illiterate but if your read Qur^an carefully than you will know that he use to write Qur^an.

Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Injeel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful.
[al-A’raaf:157]

مہربانی کرکے ذرا بتا دیں کہ جو لکھ اور پڑھ نہیں سکتا اسے کیا کہتے ہیں۔۔۔؟؟؟؟؟؟

If you want guidance from Quran than you have to believe in Quran when it says "It's easy & complete", you will get guidance for every matter of your life. But how can you get any guidance from Quran when you already believe that it's not understandable and not complete. But yeah stories written after 200 years when 8 generations was already dead are more credible than Quran. And i have no right to Question even if i find them against the teaching of God and Prophet (PBUH). Sorry dear, I am not buying your stories & religion which is cruel & blood thirsty and against humanity. I am happy with Book of God which my Prophet (PBUH) gave - call me Kharaji, Kafar and handout me death penalty, I don't care.

You mean if I say Quran is easy & complete then I would believe on Quran … Bhai Sahab if you believe in Quran then you have to believe on that person on whom Allah revealed the Quran … But you don’t believe on his sayings & actions which are proven from Sahih Hadith then how can you believe on that personality…???????? You don’t know that some Sahaba Kiram were used to write Ahadith because you don’t like to get knowledge of Ahadith … That’s why you are saying that all the Ahadith were written after 200 years when 8 generations were dead … No one says that Ahadith are credible than Quran but Tafseer of Quran cannot be done without Ahadith …

Allah says in Quran: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. (Al-Kafiroon: 6)

… Therefore, I request to you please please don’t buy story & religion but I must say that Islam is not cruel & blood thirsty & against huminty religion … It is very humble, peaceful & human friendly religion … This is religion of Muhammad (Sallah O Alaihe Wa Alehi Wa Sallam) it is not a liberal religion & cannot be modified … Rest are you wishes I cannot say anything about it

 

[muse]

Alright lets try to narrow your responses - lets grant that science is science and there really is no such thing as religious knowledge and science - Would you be OK with that?

 

[Armstrong]

Your question towards the both of them is quite frankly unfair and would more likely cause the discussion to reach a deadlock. What if their definitions of reason, good, bad, and unreasonable is not the same as your own??

On the contrary without defining these quotients to begin with how can we use them as a touchstone to measure anything else with including knowledge which in turn needs to be defined ? Men & women much smarter than you & I have been debating for centuries on the very nature & definition of these things & has written whole treatises in the field of epistemology & yet we use them with such nonchalance as an absolute quantity to be used as a yardstick to measure everything up; what is this ?

Alright lets try to narrow your responses - lets grant that science is science and there really is no such thing as religious knowledge and science - Would you be OK with that?

That doesn't answer anything but alright lets take things at their face value & as per the conventions & definitions that have been prescribed to them as per normal parlance; go on !

 

[KingMamba]

Thank you Mamba

Mamba, Are there sciences beyond religious sciences?

Yes brother there is more to this world than just religion and even our beloved Prophet Muhammad PBUH realized this. Which is why he told muslims to aquire knowledge wherever we must go to seek it even if our journey leads us to China. There was no Islam in China at the time so he obviously was referring to earthly knowledge. The mistake many mullahs make today is that they believe knowledge must be limited to religious knowledge. That is false and is the main reason why so many Muslim countries are considered backward today. We must aquire knowledge of both deen AND dunya while living a life without excesses because remember this life is just the stopgap towards the next. Is it not a shame that where once European monarchs used to send their children to learn in Islamic universities now the mullahs try to tell us we should not send our kids to learn in European universities?? The European knowledge is just an expansion on concepts that were introduced to them by Muslims, the only difference is whereas Muslims dropped learning they continued to seek more knowledge.

 

[Patriots]

We so called "Muslims" deserve it, he is still respectful and didn't said terrorists

Thanx ... You accepted that you are so-called Muslim

haha... I am Saying that Quran is "Easy & Complete" as per God's claim in Quran and is complete guidance. He is saying it's difficult and not complete - You need Hadiths to understand it. My argument is that i will check the validity of Hadith as per guidance of Quran - He says that you can't question Hadith, If you don't accept it as it is than you are denying Prophet (PBUH) and are apostate and as per Hadith i have to be killed - so simple

آپکی میرے حوالے سے یہ بات بہت بڑی علمی بد دیانتی ہے

 

[KingMamba]

@Armstrong
You are right but they spent their lives trying to answer those question based on the problems they faced during their times. If these same knowledgeable individuals were alive today perhaps their own definitions would differ entirely. Therefore when we nonchalantly use their works without regard for the substance it is because they may not necessarily be suitable for the problems plaguing humanity today. In the same way we cannot necessarily all come to a common consensus of these definitions on this thread as it may take years of introspection before we agree on anything. That is why I said your question may just cause a deadlock!!

 

[muse]

See friends, all I am getting at is that since there are any number of sciences, it is problematic to use the term "La deen" to refer to sciences that are not related to religion --- that's all - it's what the thread's lead article was highlighting.

Deen and Dunya is harmony - something we will have a difficult time approaching if we continue to use the wrong words to define reality.

To refer to other than religious sciences, as "La deeniyat" is to continue to be enemy seeking and enemy making, the opposite of the harmony you have highlighted.

 

[Armstrong]

You are right but they spent their lives trying to answer those question based on the problems they faced during their times. If these same knowledgeable individuals were alive today perhaps their own definitions would differ entirely. Therefore when we nonchalantly use their works without regard for the substance it is because they may not necessarily be suitable for the problems plaguing humanity today. In the same way we cannot necessarily all come to a common consensus of these definitions on this thread as it may take years of introspection before we agree on anything. That is why I said your question may just cause a deadlock!!

And yet 'reason', 'logic' or the quality of something being 'good' or 'bad' are the most oft repeated or implied words whenever anyone takes any stance on anything for that matter. The biggest irony is that we do all of that without even defining what any of those words even mean & throw them around as if all of it is figured out when nothing is & so whatever follows is as hollow as our hallowed proclamations for or against it !

 

[Patriots]

Sir jii tuusi samjhe naii. It is as if a Hadith comes out that someone says that Prophet Muhammad PBUH said Muslims can fly and have wings. That hadith would not contradict the quran at all because the quran does not mention flying lol but would be absurd through human reasoning.

Please do not mock Hadith ... Sahih Hadith never contradicts with Quran ... Its all propaganda to away the Muslims to their Prophet (Sallah O Alaihe Wa Alehi Wa Sallam) ... And Nothing else ..

 

[Armstrong]

See friends, all I am getting at is that since there are any number of sciences, it is problematic to use the term "La deen" to refer to sciences that are not related to religion --- that's all - it's what the thread's lead article was highlighting.

Deen and Dunya is harmony - something we will have a difficult time approaching if we continue to use the wrong words to define reality.

To refer to other than religious sciences, as "La deeniyat" is to continue to be enemy seeking and enemy making, the opposite of the harmony you have highlighted.

Deen is Dunya & Dunya is Deen; the Sciences that you talk about permeate one another to the point where they are indistinguishable at the core. Islam, as I understand, sees no separation between Dunya or Deen, between Physics or Fasting.

La-Deeniyat is a State of Mind not a quality of anything or anyone.

 

[KingMamba]

As for your question on whether there are sciences beyond religious sciences - I would suppose a better question would be to ask what is a 'Science' & what is a 'Religious Science' & does a difference between the two exist to postulate anything being beyond the other ? Perhaps 'Science' is just Science & it is our perception of it that makes us see things from different facets & exclaim the difference & the 'rightness' of our findings; a little like what Nietzsche postulates in his theory of 'Perceptivism'. Perhaps theres nothing is there to begin with & we see things they way we want them to see & because reasoning in itself is such an undefinable quotient that it can be used & abused in whatever manner one chooses to justify whatever that we are seeing !

When I hear religious science I believe it refers to the concept of one trying to learn all there is to know about the faith they follow. Sometimes things are straightfoward like "thou shall not kill" but there are many aspects to which people may or may not come to a common consensus on. Those who follow mullahs to a t will not see any need for "religious science". Ironically however these same mullahs will emphasize the need to learn religious sciences but will then also have a problem if someone disagree with their interpretation of the religion. I mean take our resident mullah zarvan as an example, he says Pakistan's problems is because their is a lack of Islam being practised. Yet he will not agree with the opinions of other Muslims who come to a different conclusion than that of his own.

 

[muse]

Deen is Dunya & Dunya is Deen;

That is indeed, deep - (deeply flawed?) Khair

 

[Armstrong]

When I hear religious science I believe it refers to the concept of one trying to learn all there is to know about the faith they follow. Sometimes things are straightfoward like "thou shall not kill" but there are many aspects to which people may or may not come to a common consensus on. Those who follow mullahs to a t will not see any need for "religious science". Ironically however these same mullahs will emphasize the need to learn religious sciences but will then also have a problem if someone disagree with their interpretation of the religion. I mean take our resident mullah zarvan as an example, he says Pakistan's problems is because their is a lack of Islam being practised. Yet he will not agree with the opinions of other Muslims who come to a different conclusion than that of his own.

For me there is no such thing as 'religious science' & so I don't really buy into this pseudo secular approach whereby a need to bridge the two - religion & modernity - is sold to the masses as part of a larger need to conform to the dominant trends out there.

That is indeed, deep - (deeply flawed?) Khair

Thank You !

But how so ?

 

[KingMamba]

And yet 'reason', 'logic' or the quality of something being 'good' or 'bad' are the most oft repeated or implied words whenever anyone takes any stance on anything for that matter. The biggest irony is that we do all of that without even defining what any of those words even mean & throw them around as if all of it is figured out when nothing is & so whatever follows is as hollow as our hallowed proclamations for or against it !

Well it is not defined out loud but subconsciously everyone has already come to their own conclusions. If not people would not feel so strong about a certain position that they adopt.

 

[Armstrong]

Well it is not defined out loud but subconsciously everyone has already come to their own conclusions. If not people would not feel so strong about a certain position that they adopt.

No they haven't they subconsciously have chosen to avoid making that choice to begin with as if the need to define the very building block of 'thought' is an absolutely trivial thought at best or a humorously ludicrous one at worst.