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Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier-Lemon?

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India and Russia have a tightrope walk ahead as they try to salvage the deal for the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov. Both sides are in talks to arrive at a mid-way point after Russia surprised Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s delegation last month by presenting a bill of $1.2 billion as additional cost for refurbishing Admiral Gorshkov (to be renamed INS Vikramaditya).

Sources here said that Russia will be prepared to take a second look at the cost estimates presented but India does not want to pay more for a task that has already suffered extensive time overruns. Russian negotiators have let it be known that they would be happier returning the $400 million given by India as advance for repairing and modernising the partially gutted aircraft carrier.

The Hindu : National : Gorshkov deal: tightrope walk for Russia, India

Man, this Gorshkov is jinxed from its inception............. don't know wherre its saga ends up?

Do the Russians accept anything less than $1.2Billion or will the Indians accept the offer of return $400 Mil. WATCH ALL IN THE NEXT EPISODE OF Gorshkov IN DEFENCE.PK.
 
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Well, the russians are willing to pay back the $400 million we paid as advance. However, india might not want to go back because it will affect the strategic balance when Viraat is decommissioned in another 6-8 years, and if the ADV indigenious carrier is ready, we will have only 1 carrier even in 2015. Ideally IN would like to have 2 carriers for each of its Western and Eastern Commands.
 
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The Billion Dollar Blueprint Mystery

December 14, 2007: There is a nasty situation is developing between India and Russia, and apparently it's all because of some lost blueprints. It goes like this. Russia and India have a $1.5 billion deal, which sold an unfinished Russian aircraft carrier, the Admiral Gorshkov, to India, and included a Russian shipyard performing $700 million worth of repairs, modifications and upgrades. Another $800 is to be spent on aircraft, weapons and equipment. Russia now wants a lot more money, while India insists on getting what the original contract called for. While the carrier is in Russia, India, which has already paid the Russians half a billion dollars, insist that they now own the ship. Russia has been scrambling to explain their sudden demands for more money, and has now admitted that the cause of the problem is, well, no one can find the blueprints for the Admiral Gorshkov, which entered service in 1987. The ship was built in Ukraine, which became an independent nation in 1991. After independence, the blueprints for the Admiral Gorshkov went missing, but no one noticed.

The Admiral Gorshkov was inactivated in 1996 (too expensive to operate on a post Cold War budget). The Indian deal was made in 2004, and the carrier was to be ready by 2008. But a year ago reports began coming out of Russia that the shipyard doing the work, Sevmash, had seriously miscalculated the cost of the project. The revised costs were now more like $1.1 billion for the $700 million refurb. The situation has since gotten worse, with Sevmash now saying that it will cost over $2 billion to refurbish the carrier. The Indians are not happy, and expects the Russian government (which owns many of the entities involved in the project) to make good on the original deal. The problem is this. The shipyard estimated the costs of doing the refurbs, not having the blueprints handy. When shipyard engineers took a close look at the Admiral Gorshkov, they realized that their estimates were much in error.

Given that India currently has $10 billion worth of Russian military items on order, and has been Russia's biggest, and most profitable customer for military equipment for decades, the Gorshkov is looking to be an error of gigantic proportions. The boss of Sevmash, when the Gorshkov deal was negotiated, has been fired and is under criminal investigation, on suspicion of financial mismanagement (separate from mistakes made in estimating contract costs for the Admiral Gorshkov work). To make matters worse, the additional work required on the Gorshkov has caused Sevmash to turn down lucrative commercial projects (like offshore oil platforms.)

The Indian government has told the Indian Navy that no more money will be forthcoming, and that Russia must comply with the original contract. The Russians, however, complain that the Indians demanded, after the contract was signed, substantial changes that were not in the contract. These changes greatly increased the cost of the work. The Indians accuse the Russians of not planning the refurb carefully. Now we have an admission that there are no blueprints, and it will cost millions to recreate the plans. Without blueprints, you can't really do a lot of work on a major warship.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htmurph/articles/20071214.aspx
 
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Raja Menon
Posted online: Monday, December 17, 2007 at 0000 hrs IST

Earlier this month — as reported in this newspaper — the navy chief had argued that the Government of India must not renegotiate the price of the aircraft carrier, Admiral Gorschkov, which India is acquiring from the Russians. The Russians are seeking $1.2 billion more for it. The issue is obviously a foreign policy matter, but what is often forgotten is the history of this deal, as indeed Indo-Russian naval ties.
Admiral Gorschkov, known as the father of the Soviet navy, was its chief for 21 years. He gave a great deal of his time to meeting the requirements of the growing Indian navy over two decades. On his third visit to India, meeting the third Indian naval chief, he is reported to have quipped, “Can’t you people find a chief you get on with, and hang on to him?” The aircraft carrier named after Gorschkov, to be renamed the Vikramaditya, is now the centre of an unpleasant controversy and a standing disgrace to the memory of both Gorschkov and the great relationship between the two navies. But all the unpleasant clapping now comes from the Russian side, and the arrogance of Putin’s new government. Clearly, the days of the warmth between the two services — and quite possibly between the two countries — appear to be fast declining.
When the Soviet government collapsed, the body entrusted with representing Moscow in negotiating foreign sales — the General Engineering Department — was also wound up, to be replaced by the Rosboron (Russian Defence) Export. Contracts are signed between the GoI (MoD) and Rosboron Export, the holding-cum-trading company which creams off 15 per cent of the contract price between the buyer and the actual seller, otherwise called the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM). On a few occasions when Indian officers have met the OEM representatives, tales of exorbitant add-on costs have emerged, as well as the inability of OEMs to give the customer a fair deal without the rapacious intervention of Rosboron. In the murky world of defence deals, the relationship between Rosboron and senior leaders in the Kremlin is discussed as hugely important bits of strategic information to be exploited in deal-making.
Today, the yard where the Vikramaditya/Gorschkov is being refitted — the Severomash in Severodvinsk — claims that the cost of refitting the Gorschkov has escalated from $700 million agreed price to about $1.3 billion. But that is not the real story. Any flat buyer who has been cheated by a builder will be familiar with this one. After paying 50 per cent of the flat price, the owner goes to see his flat, sees nothing on the ground, and is told that unless he pays 75 per cent of costs and a 50 per cent escalation, the flat construction won’t even start. The Gorschkov story is one such episode. The great mystery, of course, is whether the managers of Severomash, normally an inoffensive, hard-working lot in a remote shipyard, are doing this scam entirely on their own, or it is encouraged and abetted from Moscow.
When the Gorschkov refit started, Severodvnsk was on the verge of collapse, with the threat of thousands of workers being laid off. Today, the yard is thriving, outwardly at least. The buildings have been renovated, the employees have new cars, there are spanking new computers and office systems, but practically no work going on, on our aircraft carrier. The yard however is very busy. The new-generation Russian Nuclear Submarine, the Boreii class, languishing under construction for eight long years, has suddenly been completed. Two more Boreii class are being built — all to join the Far East Fleet in Kamchatka, to help Russia flex its new-found muscle. The yard is also churning out miles of pipelines to take Siberian gas and oil to new buyers, at $100 a barrel. When the Gorschkov deal was signed, the oil price was $47 and Russia’s GDP was $300 billion. Now it stands at $1.5 trillion. What has not changed is the camaraderie between the Indian naval officers and their Russian colleagues in the yard.

Truth they say always comes out with vodka. “You must be daft,” say the Russians, “if you thought you were getting a free aircraft carrier.”

We Indians have a few grim choices before us. The only aircraft the Gorschkov can accommodate, the Mig-29Ks, have been paid for, so no smart sidestepping is possible to acquire an old American carrier, for instance. But there are many purchases from Russia in the offing, including the army’s MBT, the Akula, the power reactors for Kudamkulam and the AWACS. There are many more yet to be negotiated, among them the mother of all deals — the Multi Role Combat Aircraft. Russia has much to lose in commercial terms by standing us up, but may make up in sales of high-tech weapons to a cash rich China.
In the final analysis, therefore, these weapons sales on such a large scale are part of the new political rearrangement going on in the world. There are many areas where only the Russians have stood by us, but if a political rearrangement is going on, we must start by looking for other collaborative ventures and why the Russians are getting away with no offsets? Only the old-timers will remember that we went to the Soviets, in the first place, in 1965, when the British Admiralty — to whom we looked up for so much — turned us down flat on a request for modern submarines. The Gorschkov deal will have to be re-negotiated, but there is little doubt that we must — as the navy chief had suggested — take a relook at where we are going, in relation to the US , the EU, Russia and Israel.

Lastly, we are repeating history and that is unforgivable. We always knew that the three strategic projects — the Indian nuclear submarine, the light combat aircraft and the main battle tank would decide our strategic independence. In all three areas we are displaying an inward-looking, autarchic, failed India image when commercial India is buying up US technological companies and creating multinational giants. Government science occasionally does deliver, like ISRO does. But if we have to dismantle our rent-seeking PSUs and create new JVs that can sell to the world instead of being the world’s largest arms buyer, let the government appoint a commission, like it did the Tata commission for aviation in the sixties, to achieve some semblance of strategic autonomy
 
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This is a good lesson for India, I am sure the deal wont be scrapped. India needs 2 carriers to have that decisive edge against potential enemies, and its worth paying USD 1 billion. Yes, agree that the delay is a bad news, but still we have the edge having the viraat. I forsee 3 careers by 2015 and then the migration of carrier fighting group from Viraat to Vikramadithya/IAC, and subsequent decommission of Viraat.
 
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This is a good lesson for India, I am sure the deal wont be scrapped. India needs 2 carriers to have that decisive edge against potential enemies, and its worth paying USD 1 billion. Yes, agree that the delay is a bad news, but still we have the edge having the viraat. I forsee 3 careers by 2015 and then the migration of carrier fighting group from Viraat to Vikramadithya/IAC, and subsequent decommission of Viraat.

2015 with three carriers doesnt seems realistic .. considering that evey lost month in negociations is going to cost 6 months in delivery..
 
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2015 with three carriers doesnt seems realistic .. considering that evey lost month in negociations is going to cost 6 months in delivery..


Your statement does not seem logical. Can you tell me on what basis do you say that 1 month on lost negotiations will cause 6 months delay.

The Admiral Gorkshov was to be delivered by 2008, now because of delay, it is expected to be delivered by 2012. The IAC is also expected to come to service by 2012. If not on time, they will be there atleast by 2015.
 
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Now the time has come to speed up our homegrown defence projects. Since this is very high time that India should realise the fact that even close ally like Russia can Squeeze our defence requirement and don't even express regret for that. I think India should need more such hard time to realise the value of our homegrown defence projects. Addition to we should speed up the building of our ADS as soon as possible which is still seem to have languishing in cochin dock.
 
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Now the time has come to speed up our homegrown defence projects. Since this is very high time that India should realise the fact that even close ally like Russia can Squeeze our defence requirement and don't even express regret for that. I think India should need more such hard time to realise the value of our homegrown defence projects. Addition to we should speed up the building of our ADS as soon as possible which is still seem to have languishing in cochin dock.


I agree with you. Even if we are self reliant in 60 % of military hardware, it would be good for us to manufacture the numbers to meet any threat in the Asian region.
 
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I agree with you. Even if we are self reliant in 60 % of military hardware, it would be good for us to manufacture the numbers to meet any threat in the Asian region.

Even if we are 60% self reliant ??? :blah: :blah:

India is not even 50% self reliant in Military Hardware.. I will give 25% at most..
 
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I said 'Even If'. Currently we are only 30% self reliant.
Please read the post well, before quoting.

Can't read futuristic :blah: :blah: ... Seems not much done in self relibility field by India, Keeps on buying and Buying ...

Only Major Equipment

ARMY --- Tanks --- NONE
AIRFORCE --- JETS ----NONE

This is what your 30% is....

NAVY-----FRIGATES -- DESTROYERS---- Kit assembled = 30%
 
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Well, I dont give wild guesses.
Here is an authentic link, with exact figure of 30%.
India's defence imports to touch $30 bn by 2012: study : India Business

I wont say that the source is not reliable but i would really like to know the basis on which he quoted 30%... As per the knowledge available and Infrastructure of India Defence Industries only small arms and modification or lisence productions are under way... No major self reliance is in picture in any field... (except the missile developement programs). Till date India is not majorly producing any Military Hardware on its Own with all components being made in India.
 
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No major self reliance is in picture in any field...

Wake up from your fantacy world, and read this.

Indigeneous efforts:

ADS- Indigeneous Aircraft Carrier in development. Desppite already having one
and an order for Admiral Gorshkov.
Indigeneous Nuclear Submarine- To be launched by 2009.
Astra-Indieneous BVR missile, in development stage.
BMD- To be ready by 2010.
ALH Dhruv- Already developed. Combat version is in the testing stage.
LCH- Development stage.
LCA- To be in service by 2012.
Arjun- In testing stage.
Akash- SAM ready to be deployed.
INSAS- Already deployed.
6000 Km Missile- In development stage.
AWACS- In development stage.

Joint Efforts:
PAK-FA- Fifth generation aircraft.
MRTA- Military transport aircraft.
Brahmos- Already deployed.


I might have missed many others.
 
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