Aboriginal Races of Frontier prior to the Pashtun invasions

[DESERT FIGHTER]

You are not getting it, when Pakistani claim to be pashtun he is not claiming foreign ancestry. But same is not the case in India where lots of pashtuns have left their decendents. Plus many other muslim people settled all over India. Pashtuns are not native to India.

There is concept of ajlaf and ashraf muslim in India, ashraf ones have foreign blood and ajlaf ones are natives.

lol. the idiot called me a "dirty ajlaf muslim" ..

 

[Kabira]

lol. the idiot called me a "dirty ajlaf muslim" ..

I didn't knew about this before, i learned it from Indians. Ashraf ones are Indian muslims with foreign ancestry and ajlaf are native converts. In fact Indians will tell you how ashraf muslims are fair and look different while ajlaf ones look like other Indians.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I didn't knew about this before, i learned it from Indians. They themselves know this, Ashraf ones are Indian muslims with foreign ancestry and ajlaf are native converts. In fact Indians will tell you how ashraf muslims are fair and look different while ajlaf ones look like other Indians.

I heard the word "ajlaf" from him..lol

 

[mujhaidind]

You are most likely a fake Dalit claiming to be Arab or whatever. You said you are from Maharashtra anyway not Hyderbad.

I was born in Hyderabad. Living in jogeshwari now.

Biharis are the smartest of the Indian lot in my opinion....and I think brain trumps brawn any day...

Most Hard-working. They might be the dumbest but not the smartest.

Smartest are Telgus or Mallus.

I didn't knew about this before, i learned it from Indians. Ashraf ones are Indian muslims with foreign ancestry and ajlaf are native converts. In fact Indians will tell you how ashraf muslims are fair and look different while ajlaf ones look like other Indians.

Ajlaf ones are Ansaris and other lower caste converts who come under OBC. Since 90% of Indian Muslims come under OBC category then 10% aren't native.

I have no problem with dark-skinned Muslims except those UP and Bihari ones. Worst people in SA and might also be the worst people in entire world.

 

[RescueRanger]

Even Folklore, traditions and legends are singularly silent about the races who inhabited the Frontier prior to Pashtun invasions.

Thorburn records that the Marwat plain was sparsely inhabited by a race which has left us nothing but its name, Pothi , and this race appears to have been found in Marwat so late as three or four centuries ago when Niazis overran it from Tank.
(Bannu or our Afghan fronteir page 14)

In the Thal or steppe of Mianwali local tradition attributes the first possession of country to a half mythical race of gigantic men , called Belemas, whose mighty bones and great earthen vesselsare even now said to discovered beneath the sand hills.
(A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier ...By H.A. Rose, page 48)

According to tradition the Kohat valley before the Bangash invasion was occupied not by Orakzais, but by the tribes of the Gabris, Safis and Maujaris, who are not now to be traced. Whoever the original inhabitants may have been they now entirely disappeared.
(Gazetteer of the Kohat District, 1883-4 - Page 31)

Khands of the Peshawar valley, of whom very little is known, are supposed by some to be very early settlers. (A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier page 49)

Henry George Raverty notes that the Budli or Budni, who consisted of several tribes and held a large tract of country extending from Nangrahar to the Indus, were displaced by the Afghans when they first entered Bangash, the modern Kunam. Raverty adds that the Budlis were expeller from Nangrahar by Sultan Bahrain, 'ruler of Pich and Lamghan. Thence they flew eastwards, according to the Akhund Darveza, and there found others of their race. Raverty hazards a conjecture that the Awans, Khathars and Ghakkars were some of the Budli or Budni tribes who crossed the Indus into Sindh-Sagar Doab.
(Notes on Afghánistan and Part of Baluchistan by H.G.Raverty ... - Page 708)

The Tirahis are a Dardic people who were once Hindus and populated the whole mountain country of Tirah. Pir Roshan is said to have expelled the Tirahis from Tirah. Tirahi is a 'Dardic' dialect spoken in a few villages southeast of Jalalabad in Eastern Afghanistan.

Amongst the wild and almost inaccessible hills of the Dir, Swat, and Panjkora Kohistan are to be found remnants of the population which existed in Buddhist times. All these non-Pathan tribes, who have embraced Islam and dwell in these remote parts of the Hindu Kush, are called Kohistanis by the Pathans themselves
( The Problem of the North-West Frontier, 1890-1908 By C. Collin Davies page 39)
Aboriginal Races of Frontier prior to the Pashtun invasions | History of Pashtuns

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[mujhaidind]

Interesting, I think you are a fellow Shiv Sena pretending to be Muslim. I have seen it before. Also you don't really say much against Maratha people in general.

 

[Kabira]

That's true, casteism is almost dead in Maharashtra, some areas it is there but compared to others I don't really see people putting much importance on it. I've seen Brahmins from here choosing a lower caste Marathis to marry there daughters instead of Brahmins from other states.

Martial race theory was bs to create more slaves. Result was that lots of people assumed fake identity all over Punjab to join British army. Pakistan nishane haider Aziz Bhatti actually belong to Kashmiri family (not considered martial by British) who migrated in 18th century from district near Sri Nagar. The reason was famine of 18th century in Kashmir.

They are known as "kasbi" (not butt) in our area, their relatives still live in Bhurch which is next village to Ladian. I didn't believe it till i found this blog written by one of Bhatti family member.

Timeline of bhatti family

• 1800 Hamlet set up by Mohammed, Gujjar "Ladi" of Ludhiana and Nek Mohammed, Gujjar of Kharian - "Ladi" + (Khar) "ian" = "Ladian" at 32 deg. 49 min North Latitude, 74 deg. 05 min. East Latitude.
• 
  
• 18?? Ladian looted and destroyed during declining years of the Mughals
• 
  
• 1822 Ladian rebuilt and rehabilitated during Sikh rule
• 
  
• 1823 Ladian and surrounding land gifted by Punjab-Kashmir Maharaha Ranjit Singh to Hindu Faqir Anand Devadasi
• 
  
• 1844 Kashmiri families in Village Dev Draggar, District Baramula near Sri Nagar, Kashmir, migrated to District Gujrat and settled in Villages Ladian, Bhurchch Basoha, Sidh, Kharana, Uda. Abdul Shakoor, (son of Mohammed Jaffar Bhatti of Dev Draggar), came with his sons Abdul Salaam and Lassa, to Ladian
• 1911 Babuji joined Royal Naval Yard Police in Hong Kong
• 
  
• 1925 89 marlas of land (1 1/8 acres of land) bearing Khasra No. 335, originally property of Allah Ditta Gujjar (alias "Tala Bala") transferred in Tehsil Kharian Revenue Records to Nur Din's sons
• 
  
• 1933 Bhattis instituted civil action in Gujrat against government for correction of caste and won
• 1934 Foundation laid of Bhatti Manzil, Ladian
• 
  
• 1934 Nazir rejoined Queen's College, Hong Kong because underage for Hong Kong University until 1935 at which time he joined HKU
• 
  
• 1965 India-Pakistan War began; Aziz martyred on BRB Canal front, Lahore, and awarded Nishan-e-Haider posthumously
• 
  
• 1966 Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution in China began and Mom's schools were closed
• 
  
• 1968 Mom and Dad married; Babuji and Mamaji performed Hajj
• 
  
• 1970 Yours truly born (but this family tree and timeline lists only the important events for the men of the family and so the illustrious and auspicious occasion is not marked)

Baji's (Olde Timey) Blog: We are Family, I Got All My Sisters With Me

See this

"1933 Bhattis instituted civil action in Gujrat against government for correction of caste and won"

What caste correction? she didn't go in to detail and I have not been able to contact her because she no longer write blog. In link there is more detailed account of timeline.

 

[Peshwa]

Maratha Empire is one of my favorites, Shivaji was a good Emperor who was able to look past religious and caste difference to forge an empire. It is a shame hindutvas hold him as some sort of radical hindu champion which I guess makes other communities not give the time and focus to his reign that he probably deserves.

The only problem I have with the Marathas is that later Peshwas colluded with the British against other kingdoms which led to their eventual defeat by the same British.

You got the last part wrong...
The house of Peshwa never sold out to the British...after the fall at Panipat, power of the Marathas got divided within fiefdoms....these individual leaders became power hungry and stabbed each other in the back, including colluding with the Brits..
Not much different from every empire the Indian sub continent has had to date..

Most Hard-working. They might be the dumbest but not the smartest.

Smartest are Telgus or Mallus.

I cautiously used the word "smart" so as not to limit the scope to book knowledge...

Simply look at the history of India and you will find that the people of Bihar and UP have always been smart in both politics as well as in book knowledge..

 

[ghoul]

Martial race theory was bs to create more slaves. Result was that lots of people assumed fake identity all over Punjab to join British army. Pakistan nishane haider Aziz Bhatti actually belong to Kashmiri family (not considered martial by British) who migrated in 18th century from district near Sri Nagar. The reason was famine of 18th century in Kashmir.

They are known as "kasbi" (not butt) in our area, their relatives still live in Bhurch which is next village to Ladian. I didn't believe it till i found this blog written by one of Bhatti family member.

Timeline of bhatti family

• 1800 Hamlet set up by Mohammed, Gujjar "Ladi" of Ludhiana and Nek Mohammed, Gujjar of Kharian - "Ladi" + (Khar) "ian" = "Ladian" at 32 deg. 49 min North Latitude, 74 deg. 05 min. East Latitude.
• 
  
• 18?? Ladian looted and destroyed during declining years of the Mughals
• 
  
• 1822 Ladian rebuilt and rehabilitated during Sikh rule
• 
  
• 1823 Ladian and surrounding land gifted by Punjab-Kashmir Maharaha Ranjit Singh to Hindu Faqir Anand Devadasi
• 
  
• 1844 Kashmiri families in Village Dev Draggar, District Baramula near Sri Nagar, Kashmir, migrated to District Gujrat and settled in Villages Ladian, Bhurchch Basoha, Sidh, Kharana, Uda. Abdul Shakoor, (son of Mohammed Jaffar Bhatti of Dev Draggar), came with his sons Abdul Salaam and Lassa, to Ladian
• 1911 Babuji joined Royal Naval Yard Police in Hong Kong
• 
  
• 1925 89 marlas of land (1 1/8 acres of land) bearing Khasra No. 335, originally property of Allah Ditta Gujjar (alias "Tala Bala") transferred in Tehsil Kharian Revenue Records to Nur Din's sons
• 
  
• 1933 Bhattis instituted civil action in Gujrat against government for correction of caste and won
• 1934 Foundation laid of Bhatti Manzil, Ladian
• 
  
• 1934 Nazir rejoined Queen's College, Hong Kong because underage for Hong Kong University until 1935 at which time he joined HKU
• 
  
• 1965 India-Pakistan War began; Aziz martyred on BRB Canal front, Lahore, and awarded Nishan-e-Haider posthumously
• 
  
• 1966 Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution in China began and Mom's schools were closed
• 
  
• 1968 Mom and Dad married; Babuji and Mamaji performed Hajj
• 
  
• 1970 Yours truly born (but this family tree and timeline lists only the important events for the men of the family and so the illustrious and auspicious occasion is not marked)

Baji's (Olde Timey) Blog: We are Family, I Got All My Sisters With Me

See this

"1933 Bhattis instituted civil action in Gujrat against government for correction of caste and won"

What caste correction? she didn't go in to detail and I have not been able to contact her because she no longer write blog. In link there is more detailed account of timeline.

That's rather shameful. I heard Raheel is also a bhatti. Baichara phuddu lag gaya haha. And I might give them a benefit of doubt that there can be bhattis in Baramulla region, but their title "raja" is very suspicious indeed. It's rather odd that someone from Kashur regions would be called a "raja".

And man, you have no idea how low our people would fall. Jhelum settlement report mentioned how Maliyar Arayeens gave their clan as Janjua rajput or Awan to the british authorities. I think the reason why these people started going all "nai" like this was that they wanted agricultural land grant from the British. The British had a policy to grant all the recognized rajput clans and awans with land, hence these people went all bastard(I know it sounds rude, but what else can you call such people?). Another thing I noticed about these nais is that they are very aggressive in their attempts to marry into real blooded people, and they attempt to usually give daughters rather than take. I bet the "Bhattis" in this case adopted the Raja title in order to attempt and mix with the local Chibs.

And man the amount of such stories that I know are staggering. My uncle told me of an urdu speaking mahajar, of all the people, claiming to be a Gakhar in Jhelum. He was openly ridiculed by real Gakhars once caught. I also know many nakli awans.

 

[Butchcassidy]

That's rather shameful. I heard Raheel is also a bhatti. Baichara phuddu lag gaya haha. And I might give them a benefit of doubt that there can be bhattis in Baramulla region, but their title "raja" is very suspicious indeed. It's rather odd that someone from Kashur regions would be called a "raja".

And man, you have no idea how low our people would fall. Jhelum settlement report mentioned how Maliyar Arayeens gave their clan as Janjua rajput or Awan to the british authorities. I think the reason why these people started going all "nai" like this was that they wanted agricultural land grant from the British. The British had a policy to grant all the recognized rajput clans and awans with land, hence these people went all bastard(I know it sounds rude, but what else can you call such people?). Another thing I noticed about these nais is that they are very aggressive in their attempts to marry into real blooded people, and they attempt to usually give daughters rather than take. I bet the "Bhattis" in this case adopted the Raja title in order to attempt and mix with the local Chibs.

And man the amount of such stories that I know are staggering. My uncle told me of an urdu speaking mahajar, of all the people, claiming to be a Gakhar in Jhelum. He was openly ridiculed by real Gakhars once caught. I also know many nakli awans.

There r no bhattis in baramulla. We had a settlement of punjabi muslims (maliks) before 47 who were in transport business but migrated post 47 after suffering a lot of financial loss at the hands of the raiders.

 

[Kabira]

That's rather shameful. I heard Raheel is also a bhatti. Baichara phuddu lag gaya haha. And I might give them a benefit of doubt that there can be bhattis in Baramulla region, but their title "raja" is very suspicious indeed. It's rather odd that someone from Kashur regions would be called a "raja".

And man, you have no idea how low our people would fall. Jhelum settlement report mentioned how Maliyar Arayeens gave their clan as Janjua rajput or Awan to the british authorities. I think the reason why these people started going all "nai" like this was that they wanted agricultural land grant from the British. The British had a policy to grant all the recognized rajput clans and awans with land, hence these people went all bastard(I know it sounds rude, but what else can you call such people?). Another thing I noticed about these nais is that they are very aggressive in their attempts to marry into real blooded people, and they attempt to usually give daughters rather than take. I bet the "Bhattis" in this case adopted the Raja title in order to attempt and mix with the local Chibs.

And man the amount of such stories that I know are staggering. My uncle told me of an urdu speaking mahajar, of all the people, claiming to be a Gakhar in Jhelum. He was openly ridiculed by real Gakhars once caught. I also know many nakli awans.

Kasbi Bhattis didn't mix with chibs, they are known to marry with other kasbi bhattis/kashmiris of area till recently. Thats what my 68 years aunt told me and i didn't believe till i found this blog. I am not 100% sure if they were koshur speaking or gojri speaking when they migrated from Kashmir.

From blog
Simplified Family Tree,

• Family of A. Salam born in Kashmir

1. Karam Din
2. Ramzan
3. Hasan Din
4. Nur Din
5. Ilam Din
6. Sahib Din

• Family of Nur Din born in Ladian

1. Imam Din
2. Ahmed Din
3. Abdullah
4. Ghulam Ali
5. Rehmat Bibi
6. Sutlan Ali
7. Nawab Ali
8. Ghulam Ali
9. Nizam Din
10. Niyamat

• Family of Abdullah born in Hong Kong

1. Nazir Ahmed
2. Nazir Begum
3. Bashir Ahmed
4. Aziz Ahmed
5. Sardar Ahmed
6. Rashid Begum
7. Rashid Ahmed

Aziz Bhatti grand father was born in Kashmir, and one also see some Butt surnames in family tree here. Bhattis are usually known as kasbi in kharian, one may have to cross chenab to find bhattis of sandal bar who are zamindar like jatts.

bhattifamily | Our Family Tree

Raheel Sharif from mother side is onviously ''kasbi bhatti'', and seem like Raheel Sharif father was also from kashmiri family but i am not 100% sure because kunjah is little to far away from kharian/ladian.. Someone from Kunjah may confirm who they are.

 

[mujhaidind]

Simply look at the history of India and you will find that the people of Bihar and UP have always been smart in both politics as well as in book knowledge..

Oh really? I wonder why worst politicians are from UP and Bihar. Both states are most back-ward.

They just have the numbers. So they dominate Indian politics.

 

[ghoul]

Kasbi Bhattis didn't mix with chibs, they are known to marry with other kasbi bhattis/kashmiris of area till recently. Thats what my 68 years aunt told me and i didn't believe till i found this blog. I am not 100% sure if they were koshur speaking or gojri speaking when they migrated from Kashmir.

From blog
Simplified Family Tree,

• Family of A. Salam born in Kashmir

1. Karam Din
2. Ramzan
3. Hasan Din
4. Nur Din
5. Ilam Din
6. Sahib Din

• Family of Nur Din born in Ladian

1. Imam Din
2. Ahmed Din
3. Abdullah
4. Ghulam Ali
5. Rehmat Bibi
6. Sutlan Ali
7. Nawab Ali
8. Ghulam Ali
9. Nizam Din
10. Niyamat

• Family of Abdullah born in Hong Kong

1. Nazir Ahmed
2. Nazir Begum
3. Bashir Ahmed
4. Aziz Ahmed
5. Sardar Ahmed
6. Rashid Begum
7. Rashid Ahmed

Aziz Bhatti grand father was born in Kashmir, and one also see some Butt surnames in family tree here. Bhattis are usually known as kasbi in kharian, one may have to cross chenab to find bhattis of sandal bar who are zamindar like jatts.

bhattifamily | Our Family Tree

Raheel Sharif from mother side is onviously ''kasbi bhatti'', and seem like Raheel Sharif father was also from kashmiri family but i am not 100% sure because kunjah is little to far away from kharian/ladian.. Someone from Kunjah may confirm who they are.

Shocking how low some people would get. And they must be Kashmiri, as Kashmir doesn't reall have kaasbis I imagine. Also, Aziz Bhatti's nishan-e-haider was challenged by brigadier tajammal malik. And Aziz Bhatti's full name was Raja Aziz Bhatti. I noticed the rathore Kashmiris from Kashur regions quickly adapting the Raja title in the AJK. I find this all rather strange..

And I had thought Raheel was a Chibh, but Chibhs are only found in northern and Serai Alamgir parts of Gujrat. I also noticed that Chibs look rather different compared to Gujjars, Jatts etc.

 

[Sam_Bajwa]

There r no bhattis in baramulla. We had a settlement of punjabi muslims (maliks) before 47 who were in transport business but migrated post 47 after suffering a lot of financial loss at the hands of the raiders.

Infact there are no bhattis in the entire valley
There are a few Pashtun speaking Pathans in baramulla and some ahmadiyyas who are called mirzai in baramulla

You got the last part wrong...
The house of Peshwa never sold out to the British...after the fall at Panipat, power of the Marathas got divided within fiefdoms....these individual leaders became power hungry and stabbed each other in the back, including colluding with the Brits..
Not much different from every empire the Indian sub continent has had to date..



I cautiously used the word "smart" so as not to limit the scope to book knowledge...

Simply look at the history of India and you will find that the people of Bihar and UP have always been smart in both politics as well as in book knowledge..

Well most people think it was the Peshwas who led to the downfall of the Maratha empire .
Although independent Maratha barons had equal share in its downfall .
Brother Can you share a bit more about it

 

[Peshwa]

Well most people think it was the Peshwas who led to the downfall of the Maratha empire .
Although independent Maratha barons had equal share in its downfall .
Brother Can you share a bit more about it

Which part in particular?? The downfall of the marathas?