A Vision of a New Combined Arms Philosophy & Doctrine

[IblinI]

Hi IblinI,

India doesn't have that many men in Ladakh. 300,000 men cannot even be sustained operationally in Ladakh. It does have that many men in the theater (Jammu Kashmir region). For mountain warfare your structure doesn't need heavy armour component as much so a lot of such "Mountain units" are light on armour and other heavy equipment. This is with the exception of artillery which is a major force multiplier in the mountains.

Now, India has to cover both the Pakistani side and the Chinese side, meaning they have to face an enemy from virtually all sides and are also threatened from being trapped and cut off if a Chinese / Pakistani offensive cuts their "chicken's neck".

Additionally, a good number of their forces have to hold internal lines of communication and supply as there is a threat from the civilians in Kashmir who side with Pakistan and China. That is, about 20 - 30 % of their forces are to hold their internal lines alone.

Finally, there are a couple of openings from the south that need to be guarded. These openings are tankable and dangerous if the Pakistani side can ram through them. These require heavy fortification as well as armour to hold.

Hope that explains it. Right now their Siachen sector is vulnerable because of troop movement to Ladakh from Leh.

Thanks a lot, and since this thread is about military doctrine and philosophy, allowed me to asked does the Indian having any plan of modernizing, reform its army structure into more combat ready combined arms battalion, brigade?

 

[Armchair]

I believe the Isuzu D max is the logical choice given Pakistan Army’s history of procuring from Isuzu.

Ford F-150s are the best sold vehicles in this category in the world. They completely dominate the US market. This is one area where the Japanese are unable to compete except at the lightest truck segment.

The F-150 Raptor does not have a mass production equivalent with the Japanese. The scale of US industry here (in this segment) means you can buy a capability at a fraction of the cost. US capability and ingenuity (and understanding of off road fast trucks) is second to none. Even the TLC is far behind in terms of the performance capability it brings. Watch the video and see if you can find something in that price range and that capability anywhere in the world. Specs just won't match. And even more - the actual feel and operational performance won't match.

Not only new ones can be bought, but since F-150s are the largest selling light trucks by far - there is a huge second hand market and after market. All this means PA could be able to buy a large number of second hand ones as much as new ones.

It takes experience of driving these trucks to understand what they are. The average vehicle expert in Pakistan may not be able to fully appreciate what they are. As someone who used to be a chase driver in mountain terrain in the US, I can say that this is something to be tried before walking away.

Thanks a lot, and since this thread is about military doctrine and philosophy, allowed me to asked does the Indian having any plan of modernizing, reform its army structure into more combat ready combined arms battalion, brigade?

Yes they do, and they are in the middle of doing this. Will take them a few more years to complete their reorganization. Their emphasis is on creating combined arms and rapid maneuver capabilities at the brigade, division and higher levels of combat. This is something Pakistan has not been as successful at doing and has attempted in minor ways to do in a more orthodox method of creating more armored units. They however lack meaningful air component for their combined arms unlike India which is attempting its best to integrate attack helicopters into their operational capability.

India also has an unassailable advantage in attack helicopters with a projected 200 local attack helicopters being manufactured and even more AH-64 Apache and other assorted helicopters. Pak doesn't have an equivalent and is responding anemically with a handful of Z-10s. Massive disparity here. Additionally, while India has a large number of Jaguars for ground attack - Pak does not have any dedicated ground attack fixed wing.

 

[IblinI]

Yes they do, and they are in the middle of doing this. Will take them a few more years to complete their reorganization. Their emphasis is on creating combined arms and rapid maneuver capabilities at the brigade, division and higher levels of combat. This is something Pakistan has not been as successful at doing and has attempted in minor ways to do in a more orthodox method of creating more armored units. They however lack meaningful air component for their combined arms unlike India which is attempting its best to integrate attack helicopters into their operational capability.

Russian had a setback in its reorganization where they have to go back from combined arms brigade to division due to lack of assets procurement/update, what is Indian's plan in this regard.

 

[Armchair]

Russian had a setback in its reorganization where they have to go back from combined arms brigade to division due to lack of assets procurement/update, what is Indian's plan in this regard.

Maybe an Indian member like @Nilgiri or a professional like @PanzerKiel or @Signalian can answer this better.

 

[S.Y.A]

Right equipment at right price (perhaps):

1. Old Chinese stock. Like Type 56 are low priced. Others: Type 81, CJ-6 (CAS / recon), assorted machine guns / small arms, mortars, MBRLs
2. Local Bayrakhtar TB-2 equivalent
3. Europe: retiring artillery (towed / SPH)
4. Helicopter: Retiring Gazelles / UH-1s / European
5. HAT - Type 59 with 125mm gun (not full Al Zarrar upgrade) and Bakhtar Shikan launcher on top.
6. SAM - indigenous development (currently one is in R&D for the navy, tell them to make a land version, and get some people to make sure they are working and not browsing FB)

so, basically, cannon fodder that can wear out the indian forces, and then the professionals can move in and deal massive damage? i like this idea.

 

[Armchair]

so, basically, cannon fodder that can wear out the indian forces, and then the professionals can move in and deal massive damage? i like this idea.

Not cannon fodder I'd say. An old assault rifle does the job just as the hitech M-4 does. Ask @PanzerKiel he used Type-56 to deadly effect in combat in former tribal regions. Combat effectiveness is not determined by the marginal quality of your equipment but far more by training, discipline, structure and good tactics.

 

[S.Y.A]

Not cannon fodder I'd say. An old assault rifle does the job just as the hitech M-4 does. Ask @PanzerKiel he used Type-56 to deadly effect in combat in former tribal regions. Combat effectiveness is not determined by the marginal quality of your equipment but far more by training, discipline, structure and good tactics.

he may have used it against a militia (ttp). not a professionally trained army with formidable artillery and air support.

 

[PanzerKiel]

he may have used it against a militia (ttp). not a professionally trained army with formidable artillery and air support.

Of course one cant use a Type 56 against an incoming artillery shell or a fighter aircraft......however it is a very reliable weapon for infantry vs warfare.

 

[nahtanbob]

I am not sure how Pakistan's history, ideology, type of government plays into conscription, perhaps you know more than me about it and what is lacking in Pak's history, ideology, etc. I defer to your judgment here.

However, conscription as a technical tool has been used by a wide assortment of countries, in a wide assortment of ways. It was never used by the colonial British Indian Army because the local population was hostile to British occupation. I am assuming that this phase has ended.

There are certain common misconceptions about conscription. Conscription doesn't necessarily mean every able bodied man has to join the front. It can even start with small numbers - like 10-50 thousand. Pakistan Army has not engaged in conscription, that is true. I believe it is more to do with still having the psyche of the British Indian Army and deep down somewhere, imagining that the goras knew best.

This is why, despite every indicator pointing to conditions being most opportune for conscription, and in fact a need of the hour, Pakistan Army refuses to even give it a try. People like you and me are supposed to be thinkers, people who make decisions based on the merit of something, not based on obtuse neo-colonial pseudo-ideologies.

I for the life of me, being a Bangladeshi, can't understand why we have servile looking bronze statues of our colonial era as glorified pieces. As if we are little House Elves in Harry Potter, glorifying how well we served our masters. I personally cannot understand why these bronze statues litter all over Dhaka. With little brown guy statues standing like house elves, and great white masters posing picturesquely in grand horses. I hate going past them. I hate it to the core of my soul.

Mental slavery, as Ibn Khaldun writes in Al Muqaddimah, takes 40 years past independence to get rid of. Unfortunately something seems wrong - we are well past that 40 years. It seems our institutions, like our armed forces, are replicating the disease and inculcating it to the next, thus it is not decaying but growing...

What happens to a conscript who knows how to use a firearm but does not have economic opportunities ? What do you think a 25 year old is going in a society laden with injustice ?

 

[Armchair]

What happens to a conscript who knows how to use a firearm but does not have economic opportunities ? What do you think a 25 year old is going in a society laden with injustice ?

A vast majority of Pakistani men know how to use a fire arm. A lot of them own one. Many of them have been using a firearm since they were a kid.

 

[nahtanbob]

A vast majority of Pakistani men know how to use a fire arm. A lot of them own one. Many of them have been using a firearm since they were a kid.

I knew gun ownership was universal among Pusthuns and tribes in the North West. I do not think gun ownership was that prevelant in Punjab and Sind provinces.

What do you think a trained conscript who does not do well in life going to do ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

I knew gun ownership was universal among Pusthuns and tribes in the North West. I do not think gun ownership was that prevelant in Punjab and Sind provinces.

What do you think a trained conscript who does not do well in life going to do ?

Acquire the wealth that he deserves but never has got.

 

[S.Y.A]

I do not think gun ownership was that prevelant in Punjab and Sind provinces.

not as much as in KPK, but still a lot. you will be surprised.

 

[Armchair]

I'm a civilian and can shoot pretty well. Well enough to have once outshot a veteran. Pakistan is full of people who can shoot. The british policy of keeping a population in hostage by disarming them was largely successful in Bengal and some other states but backfired in the regions that now make up Pakistan.

Having spent many years in Pakistan, I can confirm Punjab is full of weapons and people who can shoot. I also know (although I have spend less time in Sindh), that interior Sindh is full of weapons. And KPK and Baluchistan is well known.

Shooting a gun isn't that big a deal actually. Just take the safety off is mainly all you need to know.

 

[S.Y.A]

I'm a civilian and can shoot pretty well. Well enough to have once outshot a veteran. Pakistan is full of people who can shoot. The british policy of keeping a population in hostage by disarming them was largely successful in Bengal and some other states but backfired in the regions that now make up Pakistan.

Having spent many years in Pakistan, I can confirm Punjab is full of weapons and people who can shoot. I also know (although I have spend less time in Sindh), that interior Sindh is full of weapons. And KPK and Baluchistan is well known.

Shooting a gun isn't that big a deal actually. Just take the safety off is mainly all you need to know.

Samaa news recently covered some dakait groups in Sindh, the guys had some impressive weaponry. Same case with landowners and their private armies.