A Vision of a New Combined Arms Philosophy & Doctrine

[PanzerKiel]

thanks @Nilgiri looking forward to it. There is a cantonment at Bhuj but my OSINT suggests extremely minor deployments (from facebook postings of Indian military personnel).



My apologies I thought I'd replied to post #218 I've not been to the area but understand the terrain in the sense that its very inaccessible, the sand is such that vehicular movement through it (or even human movement) is limited.

About the mortars part - its a gun mortar a hybrid between a mortar and a gun. check out the videos I think they are a brilliant idea for Pakistan as they don't need the metallurgy of an artillery piece (thus cheaper and simpler to build).



Yes I learned this from you too. I think multiple axis attack on Jaisalmer is possible an the road network beyond Jaisalmer would allow access to every possible direction North, East, South. I understand it won't be easy as its narrow roadways with minimal ability to get out of these choke points.

Check out the N120. Then from Gadra rd towards Girab. Satyaya. Then there are the huge numbers of what appears to be country roads / dirt tracks. If one utilizes every possible venue it does disperse to some extent the assault. Even if a few of these succeed, you're through.

Beyond Jaisalmer the road and the country opens up. You can move North East now with relative ease. You are now in the enemy's rear. You're picking out their ammo stores, their supplies, their artillery, their gas stations, ultimately their airfields.

I haven't had combat experience but I've had experience of seeing the civil war in Papua new Guinea in the Highlands. The highway is key, and you can't really move without that highway. Fighting takes place along the highway and whoever controls the roads wins. I think this is not too far from that situation.

First, i would suggest you focus on problems one by one. In this, lets see how you reach Jaisalmer first. You can divide your appreciation into several logical phases. 1st is the move and assembly of the Strike Corps from its peace locations to its launch pad. 2nd can be the clearance of border areas. 3rd is the battle of exploitation till Jaisalmer. Last can be clearance of Jaisalmer itself. We can THEN discuss the left hook.

You can discuss here, each of the above mentioned phases, in detail, so that once we go on to 2nd phase, we all are clear about the problems, and the solutions of the 1st phase, and then for subsequent phases as well.

@PanzerKiel the plan from the very beginning has been to turn north east after Jaisalmer and attack Bikaner from behind. I think its a right hook. The attack is at sufficient depth that Indian assets in the axis are vulnerable.

But then again, i see your plan completely devoid of the strong responses from the Indian reserves at all levels.

But thanks for the road network. Tanks run over those just fine. : )

Another point of learning for you, tanks are not moved on good roads, you try it and you may find out that you have ruined a good road for your follow up infantry and logistic convoys.

 

[Armchair]

First, i would suggest you focus on problems one by one. In this, lets see how you reach Jaisalmer first. You can divide your appreciation into several logical phases. 1st is the move and assembly of the Strike Corps from its peace locations to its launch pad. 2nd can be the clearance of border areas. 3rd is the battle of exploitation till Jaisalmer. Last can be clearance of Jaisalmer itself. We can THEN discuss the left hook.

You can discuss here, each of the above mentioned phases, in detail, so that once we go on to 2nd phase, we all are clear about the problems, and the solutions of the 1st phase, and then for subsequent phases as well.



But then again, i see your plan completely devoid of the strong responses from the Indian reserves at all levels.

Okay I will try to think of these step by step and come up with something soon. Reserves in Ahmedabad are tied in countering Bhuj while those from Jhodpur are tied in Bikaner. Other units are busy in the China front. What other units can we imagine they have in this sector?

 

[PanzerKiel]

Okay I will try to think of these step by step and come up with something soon. Reserves in Ahmedabad are tied in countering Bhuj while those from Jhodpur are tied in Bikaner. Other units are busy in the China front. What other units can we imagine they have in this sector?

I would still suggest you start from phase 1. This is pure imagination that you are ALREADY placing your forces that much deep. Lets see whether you are able to move them on your side of the border till their launch pad or not

Go slowly, step by step, deliberately in the planning phase. You can save your speed in the operation phase. But speed in planning phase can ruin your operations.

 

[Armchair]

Another point of learning for you, tanks are not moved on good roads, you try it and you may find out that you have ruined a good road for your follow up infantry and logistic convoys.

Interesting. Perhaps we can use Rooikat like vehicles more then. Tank carriers would be quite vulnerable in Indian territory... not seeing a solution for heavy MBTs. What would you suggest?

I would still suggest you start from phase 1. This is pure imagination that you are ALREADY placing your forces that much deep. Lets see whether you are able to move them on your side of the border till their launch pad or not

Go slowly, step by step, deliberately in the planning phase. You can save your speed in the operation phase. But speed in planning phase can ruin your operations.

Okay I am going to do this starting from my next post.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Interesting. Perhaps we can use Rooikat like vehicles more then. Tank carriers would be quite vulnerable in Indian territory... not seeing a solution for heavy MBTs. What would you suggest?



Okay I am going to do this starting from my next post.

But then specify first when you are getting these new pieces of equipment, how much much time will be taken by our armed forces to absorb them etc.

 

[Old School]

Open terrain with no obstacle , is a recipe for high casualties. With added sandy dune makes it a nightmare for the general staffs . Then you add the uncertainty of CAS and logistics.
There is no easy conventional solution to PAK-Indo war planning unless either side's decision makers are recklessly dumb.

 

[Sine Nomine]

There is no easy conventional solution to PAK-Indo war planning unless either side's decision makers are recklessly dumb.

There are solutions,if you have huge coffers.

 

[ali_raza]

First, i would suggest you focus on problems one by one. In this, lets see how you reach Jaisalmer first. You can divide your appreciation into several logical phases. 1st is the move and assembly of the Strike Corps from its peace locations to its launch pad. 2nd can be the clearance of border areas. 3rd is the battle of exploitation till Jaisalmer. Last can be clearance of Jaisalmer itself. We can THEN discuss the left hook.

You can discuss here, each of the above mentioned phases, in detail, so that once we go on to 2nd phase, we all are clear about the problems, and the solutions of the 1st phase, and then for subsequent phases as well.



But then again, i see your plan completely devoid of the strong responses from the Indian reserves at all levels.



Another point of learning for you, tanks are not moved on good roads, you try it and you may find out that you have ruined a good road for your follow up infantry and logistic convoys.

now tanks r coming with rubber flaps on the belt isn’t it?

 

[Joe Shearer]

thanks @Nilgiri looking forward to it. There is a cantonment at Bhuj but my OSINT suggests extremely minor deployments (from facebook postings of Indian military personnel).

Since @kongn has said it openly, there is in fact an infantry brigade located at Bhuj.

My apologies I thought I'd replied to post #218 I've not been to the area but understand the terrain in the sense that its very inaccessible, the sand is such that vehicular movement through it (or even human movement) is limited.

About the mortars part - its a gun mortar a hybrid between a mortar and a gun. check out the videos I think they are a brilliant idea for Pakistan as they don't need the metallurgy of an artillery piece (thus cheaper and simpler to build).



Yes I learned this from you too. I think multiple axis attack on Jaisalmer is possible an the road network beyond Jaisalmer would allow access to every possible direction North, East, South. I understand it won't be easy as its narrow roadways with minimal ability to get out of these choke points.

Check out the N120. Then from Gadra rd towards Girab. Satyaya. Then there are the huge numbers of what appears to be country roads / dirt tracks. If one utilizes every possible venue it does disperse to some extent the assault. Even if a few of these succeed, you're through.

Beyond Jaisalmer the road and the country opens up. You can move North East now with relative ease. You are now in the enemy's rear. You're picking out their ammo stores, their supplies, their artillery, their gas stations, ultimately their airfields.

I haven't had combat experience but I've had experience of seeing the civil war in Papua new Guinea in the Highlands. The highway is key, and you can't really move without that highway. Fighting takes place along the highway and whoever controls the roads wins. I think this is not too far from that situation.

 

[Armchair]

@PanzerKiel

As tensions heighten and India conducts surgical strikes, V Corps based out of Karachi, using the railway network, moves to Chor, just East of Umerkot. XII Corps moves down to Pano Aqil again via rail. Conscript independent brigades and divisions are shown which are based in Badin, Nawabshah, Khairpur and Khanpur. Marked in red are our new conscript brigades / divisions, which are infantry brigades / divisions.

Additionally rangers are deployed all along the border.

Since @kongn has said it openly, there is in fact an infantry brigade located at Bhuj.

Actually he is pointing to Ahmedabad which isn't Bhuj.

 

[PanzerKiel]

@PanzerKiel

As tensions heighten and India conducts surgical strikes, V Corps based out of Karachi, using the railway network, moves to Chor, just East of Umerkot. XII Corps moves down to Pano Aqil again via rail. Conscript independent brigades and divisions are shown which are based in Badin, Nawabshah, Khairpur and Khanpur. Marked in red are our new conscript brigades / divisions, which are infantry brigades / divisions.

Additionally rangers are deployed all along the border. View attachment 624770



Actually he is pointing to Ahmedabad which isn't Bhuj.

Go slow dear, slow.......

So, you are planning your move via rail only, why not a combination of road-rail move, gives you multiple options incase of unforeseen situations. Like what if IAF blows rail junctions and stations, then what??

Any air defence cover coordinated with Army, Corps and AD elements? You need to have a visibility on available assets.

Any coordination for top cover in the form of CAPs of PAF?

 

[Armchair]

Actually I would prefer to base V Corps in or near Mirpur Khas but not sure if the infrastructure is there to keep the troops comfortable. Chor has an extensive cantonment thus...

 

[PanzerKiel]

Actually I would prefer to base V Corps in or near Mirpur Khas but not sure if the infrastructure is there to keep the troops comfortable. Chor has an extensive cantonment thus...

So now you are thinking a bit.....
Ok, but a new problem arisies, if you base your Strike Corps this much far ahead right from the outset, during peacetime, you are making the job of the opposing side easier, since they will now have a better idea that from which areas you can be launched. Staying far back in peace multiplies the complexity for the enemy and gives you lot many options for launch.

 

[Armchair]

Go slow dear, slow.......

So, you are planning your move via rail only, why not a combination of road-rail move, gives you multiple options incase of unforeseen situations. Like what if IAF blows rail junctions and stations, then what??

Any air defence cover coordinated with Army, Corps and AD elements? You need to have a visibility on available assets.

Any coordination for top cover in the form of CAPs of PAF?

Okay : )
The roads and the rail align pretty closely so I think the option B would be road in this move. Air defense move is not needed other than notification to PAF as war has not truly started other than "surgical strikes" and intense bombardment on LoC.

AD elements that are organic to the units will of course be there... But nothing more is needed at this stage.

So now you are thinking a bit.....
Ok, but a new problem arisies, if you base your Strike Corps this much far ahead right from the outset, during peacetime, you are making the job of the opposing side easier, since they will now have a better idea that from which areas you can be launched. Staying far back in peace multiplies the complexity for the enemy and gives you lot many options for launch.

Ah thanks for that. You are right. I instinctively understood this but where can I base myself? Perhaps I can break up the brigades and base them in nearby locations. Perhaps keep them at Hyderabad and a brigade in Mirpur Khas then...

 

[PanzerKiel]

Okay : )
The roads and the rail align pretty closely so I think the option B would be road in this move. Air defense move is not needed other than notification to PAF as war has not truly started other than "surgical strikes" and intense bombardment on LoC.

AD elements that are organic to the units will of course be there... But nothing more is needed at this stage.

Thats an inherent flaw then. The various AD brigades are there for some purpose. Once the enemy gets enough indicators (lot many types, easier to pick up) that your move is not for an exercise but for actual war, what do you think? An intelligent enemy will let you move, assemble and launch with impunity? What use is IAF (with long range aircraft) and other long range weapons for?

Principle - Strike Corps, or may it be any defensive formation, does not move without AD cover which has to be in place. Move has to be on multiple routes, multiple modes (rail, road) to make the job of Enemy's interdiction difficult, not easier by moving on rail only.