A Vision of a New Combined Arms Philosophy & Doctrine

[Joe Shearer]

Correct. Beyond passing the null hypothesis, it takes much more to bring a new idea to the level of wargaming.
If you have time, please also let people know why and what percentage Majors never make it to the rank of Lt. Colonel. That can be a good eye opener to many enthusiasts. I am not a ' professional ' and that is why I leave it to you.

Sir, in the Indian Army, the cut-off point, for various reasons, is the full Colonel. Sometime in the 80s, the Army got together and more or less thrust it down the Defence Ministry's throat that the full Colonel position should be a fully active post, and not a titular one; no more promotion from Lt. Col. to Brigadier. So if someone makes it past the Colonel's rank, he is guaranteed general rank.

My batch retired approximately 11 years ago, but your point is a good one; I will try to find out discreetly, the figures cannot have changed much.

 

[Armchair]

I believe you are grossly underestimating the importance of railways as far as move of forces and logistics are concerned. They still form the mainstay during the planning. With high urbanization and increase in population / traffic, road space management is getting trickier day by day. Then again, we dont have a dense nrtwork of autobahns to support our operations.

Canals, again, still pose a considerable obstacle for anyone attempting to cross it even in the face of light opposition. A weak force defending a water line is very difficult to be dislodged.

Reminds me of Rommel in Attacks against French defensive lines. They looked impossible and impassable but he found a way.

Imagine heavy bombardment followed by a rapid pontoon bridge, soldiers go across hold the position while heavier bridges are built. CAS aircraft overhead limits enemy counter moves and heavy gun mortars / artillery / MBRLs rain in, as the long canal stretches the enemies ability to mount concentrated defenses.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Couldnt agree more sir. But in our accounts, IAF did visit our side and fired, witnesses say there was no chance of a miss even if you would have fired blindly into that traffic jam of two divisions. Several ammo vehicles took the brunt.

Didn't know that, missed it somehow. Thank you for the correction, Sir.

I am so glad that you are looking on, as well as some other very good minds among our membership. It is rare to find such a pleasing thread any more.

 

[PanzerKiel]

I concede, 120mm mortar and troops would be hard to do in practical terms. How about 82mm like this? Apparently some BMPs used to be armed with them.

120mm still fascinates me as a system. In an APC configuration they can fire and scoot. Fire again and change position. This would be organic and would be an interesting weapon for combined arms operations.

One could have 120mm versions of an apc and then 82mm version with troops.

About the rail network I am not discounting it obviously most useful for mobilization but not very useful for offensive blitzkreig like movements into India.

I have operated in 81 mm mortar M113. Believe me, with the weapon and its ammo and accessories inside, four soldiers (who are basically required to fire it) are all that can be accommodated.

As far as rail networks are concerned, do please understand that the move and assembly of a body of troops are as important, may bre more, than the real operation. If that body is not in place, then it is late for launch. If it is late, the other side may have already achieved its aim. This delay is what is required by the rival air force and long range weapons.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I concede, 120mm mortar and troops would be hard to do in practical terms. How about 82mm like this? Apparently some BMPs used to be armed with them.

120mm still fascinates me as a system. In an APC configuration they can fire and scoot. Fire again and change position. This would be organic and would be an interesting weapon for combined arms operations.

One could have 120mm versions of an apc and then 82mm version with troops.

About the rail network I am not discounting it obviously most useful for mobilization but not very useful for offensive blitzkreig like movements into India.

Leaving aside the Roger Rabbit moments, the logic, Mokkel Amaar, is that you need to gather yourself at some point to make that blitzkrieg thrust. Guess what you need to move your materiel to that point? and guess how you get fuel to that point? not to mention the other two logistics staples, beans (food) and bullets.

I have operated in 81 mm mortar M113. Believe me, with the weapon and its ammo and accessories inside, four soldiers (who are basically required to fire it) are all that can be accommodated.

As far as rail networks are concerned, do please understand that the move and assembly of a body of troops are as important, may bre more, than the real operation. If that body is not in place, then it is late for launch. If it is late, the other side may have already achieved its aim. This delay is what is required by the rival air force and long range weapons.

You beat me to the punch. Sorry for the repetition.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Reminds me of Rommel in Attacks against French defensive lines. They looked impossible and impassable but he found a way.

Imagine heavy bombardment followed by a rapid pontoon bridge, soldiers go across hold the position while heavier bridges are built. CAS aircraft overhead limits enemy counter moves and heavy gun mortars / artillery / MBRLs rain in, as the long canal stretches the enemies ability to mount concentrated defenses.

Again, the amount and quality of the bunkers lined along DCBs of both sides may surprise you. I'll not be specific, but tens of field and medium artillery rounds are required to neutralise just one bunker. Over that, it is already well sited, camouflaged, ample overhead protection covers 300 m of the water either side.

 

[Armchair]

Again, the amount and quality of the bunkers lined along DCBs of both sides may surprise you. I'll not be specific, but tens of field and medium artillery rounds are required to neutralise just one bunker. Over that, it is already well sited, camouflaged, ample overhead protection covers 300 m of the water either side.

We don't need to destroy all the bunkers, just some of them to break through. Once you break through that entire line loses a good deal of their potency as a defense. Notice below:

Both the initial attack on Bikaner and Jaisalmer are holding attacks. They engage the IA and keep their units from maneuvering away. The attack on XXI Corps around Jaisalmer from 5 vectors is not assailable due to the unit not finding support from either Bikaner or XII Corps coming from Ahmedabad.

Once Jaisalmer is breached, PA is already on the other side of the Indian WWI style defenses. Attack on Bikaner now from the South is not assailable as (1) Indian I Corps is already engaged on the West (2) their defenses are all facing West and the South becomes a soft underbelly. There is nothing to stop the breach in Jaisalmer to keep rolling northwards and causing mayhem behind that North-South canal and line of bunkers India has.

India prepared for a war from the West. Here they meet the unexpected - a war from the South. That is the surprise here which allows itself to be exploited.

Some more thoughts regarding bunker busting:

1. The gun-mortars given that they are in relatively large numbers would help
2. CAS aircaft will definitely help in removing some bunkers (bunker busters?)
3. ATGMs
4. Tanks

 

[Joe Shearer]

We don't need to destroy all the bunkers, just some of them to break through. Once you break through that entire line loses a good deal of their potency as a defense. Notice below:
View attachment 624388
Both the initial attack on Bikaner and Jaisalmer are holding attacks. They engage the IA and keep their units from maneuvering away. The attack on XXI Corps around Jaisalmer from 5 vectors is not assailable due to the unit not finding support from either Bikaner or XII Corps coming from Ahmedabad.

Once Jaisalmer is breached, PA is already on the other side of the Indian WWI style defenses. Attack on Bikaner now from the South is not assailable as (1) Indian I Corps is already engaged on the West (2) their defenses are all facing West and the South becomes a soft underbelly. There is nothing to stop the breach in Jaisalmer to keep rolling northwards and causing mayhem behind that North-South canal and line of bunkers India has.

India prepared for a war from the West. Here they meet the unexpected - a war from the South. That is the surprise here which allows itself to be exploited.

Perhaps - just possibly - you may not be aware of the difference in terrain from the Libyan Desert. This is emphatically not tank country; in 1971, everybody, on both sides, slipped and slithered around the thin strips of blacktop across the desert.

Now, take a look at your formations and their numbers of vehicles. How long will a division be on the road? What happens then? You attack one battalion/regiment at a time? (memo.: remind him to go see a sausage grinder in operation). How will you make these sweeping left hooks and right crosses through loose, impassable sand? Put your armour on hovercraft and debouch them into hull-down positions on the battle-field? What, by the way, does the infantry do in this mess?

Just asking.

Another ask: have you read Z. A. Khan's account of the attack on Jaisalmer that almost happened?

We don't need to destroy all the bunkers, just some of them to break through. Once you break through that entire line loses a good deal of their potency as a defense. Notice below:
View attachment 624388
Both the initial attack on Bikaner and Jaisalmer are holding attacks. They engage the IA and keep their units from maneuvering away. The attack on XXI Corps around Jaisalmer from 5 vectors is not assailable due to the unit not finding support from either Bikaner or XII Corps coming from Ahmedabad.

Once Jaisalmer is breached, PA is already on the other side of the Indian WWI style defenses. Attack on Bikaner now from the South is not assailable as (1) Indian I Corps is already engaged on the West (2) their defenses are all facing West and the South becomes a soft underbelly. There is nothing to stop the breach in Jaisalmer to keep rolling northwards and causing mayhem behind that North-South canal and line of bunkers India has.

India prepared for a war from the West. Here they meet the unexpected - a war from the South. That is the surprise here which allows itself to be exploited.

Some more thoughts regarding bunker busting:

1. The gun-mortars given that they are in relatively large numbers would help
2. CAS aircaft will definitely help in removing some bunkers (bunker busters?)
3. ATGMs
4. Tanks

Mortars and CAS aircraft for bunker-busting? Oh, right, of course, what else would these two be doing otherwise?

 

[Armchair]

I have operated in 81 mm mortar M113. Believe me, with the weapon and its ammo and accessories inside, four soldiers (who are basically required to fire it) are all that can be accommodated.

As far as rail networks are concerned, do please understand that the move and assembly of a body of troops are as important, may bre more, than the real operation. If that body is not in place, then it is late for launch. If it is late, the other side may have already achieved its aim. This delay is what is required by the rival air force and long range weapons.

There are now automated mortar systems with remote turrets. An interesting device but surely helps reduce the workload of manually firing mortars. These aren't mortars actually. They have long barrels and breeches and the ammo is different. They are half way between mortars and traditional tube artillery.

Check this out:

So basically:

Much fewer people needed to operate
Longer range (up to 18 km)
Greater impact than a 120 gun or artillery shell
Accurate

Its a near perfect system for the theory I've built here I think

 

[padamchen]

Sir, in the Indian Army, the cut-off point, for various reasons, is the full Colonel. Sometime in the 80s, the Army got together and more or less thrust it down the Defence Ministry's throat that the full Colonel position should be a fully active post, and not a titular one; no more promotion from Lt. Col. to Brigadier. So if someone makes it past the Colonel's rank, he is guaranteed general rank.

My batch retired approximately 11 years ago, but your point is a good one; I will try to find out discreetly, the figures cannot have changed much.

Everyone makes it to Lt Col.

Fighting guys make it to full Col earlier than the Docs.

37-39 for the fighting arms (a bit earlier for the NDA versus the DE/SS guys) versus 42-44 for the Docs.

Fighting guys after around 15-16 years seniority, Docs earliest after 19 years.

Fighting guys get commissioned at 21, Docs earliest 22-23 (avg 23-24).

However, a larger proportion of Docs make it to full Colonel compared to the fighting arms. More than double in fact.

Hope that helps.

@Old School

 

[Armchair]

Perhaps - just possibly - you may not be aware of the difference in terrain from the Libyan Desert. This is emphatically not tank country; in 1971, everybody, on both sides, slipped and slithered around the thin strips of blacktop across the desert.

Now, take a look at your formations and their numbers of vehicles. How long will a division be on the road? What happens then? You attack one battalion/regiment at a time? (memo.: remind him to go see a sausage grinder in operation). How will you make these sweeping left hooks and right crosses through loose, impassable sand? Put your armour on hovercraft and debouch them into hull-down positions on the battle-field? What, by the way, does the infantry do in this mess?

Just asking.

Another ask: have you read Z. A. Khan's account of the attack on Jaisalmer that almost happened?



Mortars and CAS aircraft for bunker-busting? Oh, right, of course, what else would these two be doing otherwise?

I haven't been to Jaisalmer so I wouldn't know. But I do know that these sands are very different from Libya or elsewhere and very difficult to traverse. But difficult doesn't mean undoable.


Using Google Maps I can see road networks and dirt track networks all over. Will there be endless choke points? Yes, but its still passable.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I haven't been to Jaisalmer so I wouldn't know. But I do know that these sands are very different from Libya or elsewhere and very difficult to traverse. But difficult doesn't mean undoable.

Why on earth must your schwerpunkt be on the almost undoable?

Using Google Maps I can see road networks and dirt track networks all over. Will there be endless choke points? Yes, but its still passable.

Ignore what I'm saying. Ask somebody with service experience what happens if there is a narrow road, running through sands that are difficult to traverse, that runs a division (count the soft vehicles and the troops carriers) along those narrow roads, and there is a breakdown?

Ask him what happens to fuel: how does it get to the head of the column?

We could go on and on.

 

[padamchen]

Ask him what happens to fuel: how does it get to the head of the column?

 

[PanzerKiel]

We don't need to destroy all the bunkers, just some of them to break through. Once you break through that entire line loses a good deal of their potency as a defense. Notice below:
View attachment 624388
Both the initial attack on Bikaner and Jaisalmer are holding attacks. They engage the IA and keep their units from maneuvering away. The attack on XXI Corps around Jaisalmer from 5 vectors is not assailable due to the unit not finding support from either Bikaner or XII Corps coming from Ahmedabad.

Once Jaisalmer is breached, PA is already on the other side of the Indian WWI style defenses. Attack on Bikaner now from the South is not assailable as (1) Indian I Corps is already engaged on the West (2) their defenses are all facing West and the South becomes a soft underbelly. There is nothing to stop the breach in Jaisalmer to keep rolling northwards and causing mayhem behind that North-South canal and line of bunkers India has.

India prepared for a war from the West. Here they meet the unexpected - a war from the South. That is the surprise here which allows itself to be exploited.

Some more thoughts regarding bunker busting:

1. The gun-mortars given that they are in relatively large numbers would help
2. CAS aircaft will definitely help in removing some bunkers (bunker busters?)
3. ATGMs
4. Tanks

Just to steer you in the right direction, the base of Strike Corps,once it has been launched, is almost 25 km, may be more. With a RCC bunker or a weapon bunker every 100 m, you can do the math. This 25 km stretch has to be cleared because, may be your mechanized forces MAY force their way through the gauntlet of fire, your soft skinned vehicles of infantry and following logistic convoys would be badly shot up.

I would also suggest you to zoom to the lowest level of Google Earth and try to study the terrain in detail. NUMEROUS DCBs, Double DCBs, towns, cities, rivers / canals / water channels, they all contribute towards the terrain friction. Remember, Terrain and the enemy are the two factors which you have to master before you make your plan. If you havent included them, in detail, as part of your initial planning, everything goes for a six.

Your infantry will be sitting on the other side of the water obstacle, may be 200 m away from those bunkers. Would you like or try or risk CAS this much close. THen CAS aircraft will use which weapons. PGMs, though accurate are far too costly and less in number to be expended on individual bunkers. Dumb bombs, being inaccurate, will place your own troops in risk. There are other, time tested, battle tested ways which are adopted for bunker busting by both armies.

These bunkers have ATGMs as well, would they let your tanks come this much close? And then if you suffer tank losses during bunker busting, you can imagine your remaining combat potential for the main fight which has yet to start.

There are now automated mortar systems with remote turrets. An interesting device but surely helps reduce the workload of manually firing mortars. These aren't mortars actually. They have long barrels and breeches and the ammo is different. They are half way between mortars and traditional tube artillery.

Check this out:

So basically:

Much fewer people needed to operate
Longer range (up to 18 km)
Greater impact than a 120 gun or artillery shell
Accurate

Its a near perfect system for the theory I've built here I think

Nothing wrong with your theory, but then please do try to calculate when our economy will be able to afford these wonder weapons in large numbers.

I haven't been to Jaisalmer so I wouldn't know. But I do know that these sands are very different from Libya or elsewhere and very difficult to traverse. But difficult doesn't mean undoable.


Using Google Maps I can see road networks and dirt track networks all over. Will there be endless choke points? Yes, but its still passable.

I have been there alot. With a long mechanized column moving on these dirt tracks, imagine what enemy CAS will do. In 1971, it was a Hunter Detachment which confronted our 22 Cavalry and stopped it.

 

[Armchair]

Just to steer you in the right direction, the base of Strike Corps,once it has been launched, is almost 25 km, may be more. With a RCC bunker or a weapon bunker every 100 m, you can do the math. This 25 km stretch has to be cleared because, may be your mechanized forces MAY force their way through the gauntlet of fire, your soft skinned vehicles of infantry and following logistic convoys would be badly shot up.

I would also suggest you to zoom to the lowest level of Google Earth and try to study the terrain in detail. NUMEROUS DCBs, Double DCBs, towns, cities, rivers / canals / water channels, they all contribute towards the terrain friction. Remember, Terrain and the enemy are the two factors which you have to master before you make your plan. If you havent included them, in detail, as part of your initial planning, everything goes for a six.

Your infantry will be sitting on the other side of the water obstacle, may be 200 m away from those bunkers. Would you like or try or risk CAS this much close. THen CAS aircraft will use which weapons. PGMs, though accurate are far too costly and less in number to be expended on individual bunkers. Dumb bombs, being inaccurate, will place your own troops in risk. There are other, time tested, battle tested ways which are adopted for bunker busting by both armies.

These bunkers have ATGMs as well, would they let your tanks come this much close? And then if you suffer tank losses during bunker busting, you can imagine your remaining combat potential for the main fight which has yet to start.

Thanks @PanzerKiel that's some good homework, always glad to learn from you. How about if you punch a 2 km wide gap and then attack the bunkers from behind? If the initial punch through is fast enough, you will catch a lot of them by surprise. Rommel did similarly in WWI. Clearing a 25 km long stretch before going forward would completely defeat surprise and initiative.

Remember also that we are looking to engage in Jaisalmer for a relatively brief period of time and then turn northwards. We are not actually pushing forward towards Jodhpur.
This means that as we turn north and attack Bikaner from the South, linking up with own forces, we don't really need to maintain a solid supply route from the rear via Jaisalmer. Instead, we are attacking Bikaner and linking up with own forces.
Therefore the issue of clearing a longer-term supply line via Jaisalmer is moot.

Low cost PGMs are now available things, I think at least enough can be built locally to punch through. The cheapest is laser based glide bomb kits that attach to a regular iron bomb. Regarding friendly fire, some risks have to be taken and managed as best as possible.

Nothing wrong with your theory, but then please do try to calculate when our economy will be able to afford these wonder weapons in large numbers.

We aren't importing, we are making something similar. Look also at the BMP3 which has a similar auto loading system (and looks like a light tank)

It also has a 100mm gun and carries 7 troops in addition to the driver, commander and gunner.

Now, a gun mortar being half way between a traditional gun and a mortar has far lower velocities than a traditional gun. This means they can be built with less metallurgy (and cost) behind them. The autoloader for the AK is built in Pakistan, surely a similar autoloader is possible for this?

The benefit of a mobile gun mortar in this kind of environment is that, if you are stuck on a road and can't maneuver much, you can still fight and fire at the enemy as your weapon is non line of sight.

What I am saying here isn't a revolutionary idea, its roughly what a BMP3 already is.

I have been there alot. With a long mechanized column moving on these dirt tracks, imagine what enemy CAS will do. In 1971, it was a Hunter Detachment which confronted our 22 Cavalry and stopped it.

Interesting and awesome. I'm sure you cannot tell us too much more. Air cover during the assault is a must and I doubt any of the game plan I've outlined is possible without at the very least PAF being able to keep the IAF off the PA. In 71 I think PAF was holding all its assets and waiting for D Day but it never came. This allowed IAF a free hand against PA.

Why on earth must your schwerpunkt be on the almost undoable?




Ignore what I'm saying. Ask somebody with service experience what happens if there is a narrow road, running through sands that are difficult to traverse, that runs a division (count the soft vehicles and the troops carriers) along those narrow roads, and there is a breakdown?

Ask him what happens to fuel: how does it get to the head of the column?

We could go on and on.

Load fuel before entering Indian territory and worry about it after overcoming water obstacle in Jaisalmer? It's less than 100 km away from Pak territory. You can give fuel cans to every vehicle headed. Once you get past Jaisalmer, the terrain and the roads open up (the latter quite a bit).