A Vision of a New Combined Arms Philosophy & Doctrine

[kongn]

Been a little busy to properly follow up the thread.
Don't want to repeat ,but still any serious discussion must factor in the attack/counterattack of the II strike kharga corps ,which is the strongest indian offensive formation.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Thanks @PanzerKiel that's some good homework, always glad to learn from you. How about if you punch a 2 km wide gap and then attack the bunkers from behind? If the initial punch through is fast enough, you will catch a lot of them by surprise. Rommel did similarly in WWI. Clearing a 25 km long stretch before going forward would completely defeat surprise and initiative.

Remember also that we are looking to engage in Jaisalmer for a relatively brief period of time and then turn northwards. We are not actually pushing forward towards Jodhpur.
This means that as we turn north and attack Bikaner from the South, linking up with own forces, we don't really need to maintain a solid supply route from the rear via Jaisalmer. Instead, we are attacking Bikaner and linking up with own forces.
Therefore the issue of clearing a longer-term supply line via Jaisalmer is moot.

Low cost PGMs are now available things, I think at least enough can be built locally to punch through. The cheapest is laser based glide bomb kits that attach to a regular iron bomb. Regarding friendly fire, some risks have to be taken and managed as best as possible.



We aren't importing, we are making something similar. Look also at the BMP3 which has a similar auto loading system (and looks like a light tank)

It also has a 100mm gun and carries 7 troops in addition to the driver, commander and gunner.

Now, a gun mortar being half way between a traditional gun and a mortar has far lower velocities than a traditional gun. This means they can be built with less metallurgy (and cost) behind them. The autoloader for the AK is built in Pakistan, surely a similar autoloader is possible for this?

The benefit of a mobile gun mortar in this kind of environment is that, if you are stuck on a road and can't maneuver much, you can still fight and fire at the enemy as your weapon is non line of sight.

What I am saying here isn't a revolutionary idea, its roughly what a BMP3 already is.



Interesting and awesome. I'm sure you cannot tell us too much more. Air cover during the assault is a must and I doubt any of the game plan I've outlined is possible without at the very least PAF being able to keep the IAF off the PA. In 71 I think PAF was holding all its assets and waiting for D Day but it never came. This allowed IAF a free hand against PA.




Load fuel before entering Indian territory and worry about it after overcoming water obstacle in Jaisalmer? It's less than 100 km away from Pak territory. You can give fuel cans to every vehicle headed. Once you get past Jaisalmer, the terrain and the roads open up (the latter quite a bit).

Militaries have learned since WW2. These bunker are good enough as well if you attack them from behind.

Rommel did not attack any DCB based defence in the desert. He did it in France, you may like to read it in detail to know what difficulties he faced.

Thts the problem, moving and launching of a Strike Corps, such a big force, you cant hide it.

The pace with which you move own strike forces is unbelieveable, and un-doable as well. Strike Corps is not a car that you can suddenly turn and change direction.

Thanks @PanzerKiel that's some good homework, always glad to learn from you. How about if you punch a 2 km wide gap and then attack the bunkers from behind? If the initial punch through is fast enough, you will catch a lot of them by surprise. Rommel did similarly in WWI. Clearing a 25 km long stretch before going forward would completely defeat surprise and initiative.

Remember also that we are looking to engage in Jaisalmer for a relatively brief period of time and then turn northwards. We are not actually pushing forward towards Jodhpur.
This means that as we turn north and attack Bikaner from the South, linking up with own forces, we don't really need to maintain a solid supply route from the rear via Jaisalmer. Instead, we are attacking Bikaner and linking up with own forces.
Therefore the issue of clearing a longer-term supply line via Jaisalmer is moot.

Low cost PGMs are now available things, I think at least enough can be built locally to punch through. The cheapest is laser based glide bomb kits that attach to a regular iron bomb. Regarding friendly fire, some risks have to be taken and managed as best as possible.

And do please try to understand the difference between capturing an area and then absorbing it for own use. Mopping up and absorbing an area requires a disproportionate level of troops.


We aren't importing, we are making something similar. Look also at the BMP3 which has a similar auto loading system (and looks like a light tank)

It also has a 100mm gun and carries 7 troops in addition to the driver, commander and gunner.

Now, a gun mortar being half way between a traditional gun and a mortar has far lower velocities than a traditional gun. This means they can be built with less metallurgy (and cost) behind them. The autoloader for the AK is built in Pakistan, surely a similar autoloader is possible for this?

The benefit of a mobile gun mortar in this kind of environment is that, if you are stuck on a road and can't maneuver much, you can still fight and fire at the enemy as your weapon is non line of sight.

What I am saying here isn't a revolutionary idea, its roughly what a BMP3 already is.



Interesting and awesome. I'm sure you cannot tell us too much more. Air cover during the assault is a must and I doubt any of the game plan I've outlined is possible without at the very least PAF being able to keep the IAF off the PA. In 71 I think PAF was holding all its assets and waiting for D Day but it never came. This allowed IAF a free hand against PA.




Load fuel before entering Indian territory and worry about it after overcoming water obstacle in Jaisalmer? It's less than 100 km away from Pak territory. You can give fuel cans to every vehicle headed. Once you get past Jaisalmer, the terrain and the roads open up (the latter quite a bit).

 

[kongn]

Militaries have learned since WW2. These bunker are good enough as well if you attack them from behind.

Rommel did not attack any DCB based defence in the desert. He did it in France, you may like to read it in detail to know what difficulties he faced.

Thts the problem, moving and launching of a Strike Corps, such a big force, you cant hide it.

The pace with which you move own strike forces is unbelieveable, and un-doable as well. Strike Corps is not a car that you can suddenly turn and change direction.

Also OP is proposing to change direction and move his units parallel to the enemy while in contact or near contact with him.This means exposing your entire right flank and rear echelon units to enemy artillery and armour attack.Massive losses will be taken from enemy artillery during the movement itself which would have a clear view.This goes against every principle of military maneuvre.
If he wanted to make a turning movement ,he has to first detatch part of his force as blocking detatchment to keep contacted enemy forces at bay,then ideally get behind his own canal line and use it as a screen from behind which he can make the movement.

 

[Armchair]

Militaries have learned since WW2. These bunker are good enough as well if you attack them from behind.

Rommel did not attack any DCB based defence in the desert. He did it in France, you may like to read it in detail to know what difficulties he faced.

Thts the problem, moving and launching of a Strike Corps, such a big force, you cant hide it.

The pace with which you move own strike forces is unbelieveable, and un-doable as well. Strike Corps is not a car that you can suddenly turn and change direction.

I did and the key for him was surprising and moving past initial breakthrough and continuing. His most important tactic I think. If you are fast enough, I don't think the Indians would expect you to attack them from behind their lines.

The biggest lesson from the Italian front is that troops guarding a front that are not careful about the enemy are caught unawares, and once someone like Rommel penetrates he can continue on to the next line of defense and possibly penetrate that as well as the enemy is caught unawares.

If you break through the DCBs and attack them from behind, you should be able to get quite a few of them with little to no fight (or so my reading of Rommel tells me).

 

[Joe Shearer]

More or less sums up the brave new plan.

Just to steer you in the right direction, the base of Strike Corps,once it has been launched, is almost 25 km, may be more. With a RCC bunker or a weapon bunker every 100 m, you can do the math. This 25 km stretch has to be cleared because, may be your mechanized forces MAY force their way through the gauntlet of fire, your soft skinned vehicles of infantry and following logistic convoys would be badly shot up.

I would also suggest you to zoom to the lowest level of Google Earth and try to study the terrain in detail. NUMEROUS DCBs, Double DCBs, towns, cities, rivers / canals / water channels, they all contribute towards the terrain friction. Remember, Terrain and the enemy are the two factors which you have to master before you make your plan. If you havent included them, in detail, as part of your initial planning, everything goes for a six.

Your infantry will be sitting on the other side of the water obstacle, may be 200 m away from those bunkers. Would you like or try or risk CAS this much close. THen CAS aircraft will use which weapons. PGMs, though accurate are far too costly and less in number to be expended on individual bunkers. Dumb bombs, being inaccurate, will place your own troops in risk. There are other, time tested, battle tested ways which are adopted for bunker busting by both armies.

These bunkers have ATGMs as well, would they let your tanks come this much close? And then if you suffer tank losses during bunker busting, you can imagine your remaining combat potential for the main fight which has yet to start.



Nothing wrong with your theory, but then please do try to calculate when our economy will be able to afford these wonder weapons in large numbers.



I have been there alot. With a long mechanized column moving on these dirt tracks, imagine what enemy CAS will do. In 1971, it was a Hunter Detachment which confronted our 22 Cavalry and stopped it.

Thank you for your intervention, Sir.

War-gamers and analysts need to walk through these proposed theatres of war on foot (yes, I know I am being a little harsh) before preparing scenarios.

Thanks @PanzerKiel that's some good homework, always glad to learn from you. How about if you punch a 2 km wide gap and then attack the bunkers from behind? If the initial punch through is fast enough, you will catch a lot of them by surprise. Rommel did similarly in WWI. Clearing a 25 km long stretch before going forward would completely defeat surprise and initiative.

Remember also that we are looking to engage in Jaisalmer for a relatively brief period of time and then turn northwards. We are not actually pushing forward towards Jodhpur.
This means that as we turn north and attack Bikaner from the South, linking up with own forces, we don't really need to maintain a solid supply route from the rear via Jaisalmer. Instead, we are attacking Bikaner and linking up with own forces.
Therefore the issue of clearing a longer-term supply line via Jaisalmer is moot.

Low cost PGMs are now available things, I think at least enough can be built locally to punch through. The cheapest is laser based glide bomb kits that attach to a regular iron bomb. Regarding friendly fire, some risks have to be taken and managed as best as possible.



We aren't importing, we are making something similar. Look also at the BMP3 which has a similar auto loading system (and looks like a light tank)

It also has a 100mm gun and carries 7 troops in addition to the driver, commander and gunner.

Now, a gun mortar being half way between a traditional gun and a mortar has far lower velocities than a traditional gun. This means they can be built with less metallurgy (and cost) behind them. The autoloader for the AK is built in Pakistan, surely a similar autoloader is possible for this?

The benefit of a mobile gun mortar in this kind of environment is that, if you are stuck on a road and can't maneuver much, you can still fight and fire at the enemy as your weapon is non line of sight.

What I am saying here isn't a revolutionary idea, its roughly what a BMP3 already is.



Interesting and awesome. I'm sure you cannot tell us too much more. Air cover during the assault is a must and I doubt any of the game plan I've outlined is possible without at the very least PAF being able to keep the IAF off the PA. In 71 I think PAF was holding all its assets and waiting for D Day but it never came. This allowed IAF a free hand against PA.




Load fuel before entering Indian territory and worry about it after overcoming water obstacle in Jaisalmer? It's less than 100 km away from Pak territory. You can give fuel cans to every vehicle headed. Once you get past Jaisalmer, the terrain and the roads open up (the latter quite a bit).

Fuel was loaded on tanks (and other vehicles) in 71. Makes for more spectacular fireworks when torched.

You really need to interpret the tracks that you see joining various points on the map in expanded form. These are tracks, not capable of standing up to the passage of large tonnages of armour and soft-skinned vehicles in short spans of time. Even commercial traffic destroys them in very short order.

Damn Google for unleashing armchair generals on us.

Also OP is proposing to change direction and move his units parallel to the enemy while in contact or near contact with him.This means exposing your entire right flank and rear echelon units to enemy artillery and armour attack.Massive losses will be taken from enemy artillery during the movement itself which would have a clear view.This goes against every principle of military maneuvre.
If he wanted to make a turning movement ,he has to first detatch part of his force as blocking detatchment to keep contacted enemy forces at bay,then ideally get behind his own canal line and use it as a screen from behind which he can make the movement.

You both missed the 'quote'. We were being demonstrated a Patton at the Battle of the Bulge, re-orienting his Army to move at right angles to the original axis. There is no need to be unduly pessimistic and factor in the complete air domination that the allied air forces had, or the total lack of resistance from the Germans, who had stripped their defences of whatever they could to push the resources into their Ardennes counter-attack.

 

[Nilgiri]

Guess now we are down to semantics and opinion but good talk. I tried looking through @Nilgiri 's maps and didn't find anything posted in Bhuj but guess @Nilgiri can explain better. Also, I think some of his maps have broken links.

Will be fixing that up a bit later (broken links)...need a bit of time to get to it.

On Guj/Sindh rann of kutch area etc, the info was quite sparsely populated if I remember (esp on Indian side) since its just official basing. I will take a snap of there too to show you what I got when I fix things up later.

 

[ali_raza]

No, Sir, you have done your bit.

If, after all the hullabaloo dies down, there is an attempt to re-work the basic idea - how to win a war with fewer people, fewer arms and weapons, and a faltering economy - I would love to be there. It is a challenging problem.

more competent people have already reached a solution to the dilemma
i remembered late gen jamshed gulzar kiani.
he quoted once meeting an indian general of his renk in london and got surprised by the lack of quality of character and vision.
no offense to wider indian nation but its a fact that pakistan army is much more hard hitting force qualitatively
despite being small and under funded

 

[Joe Shearer]

more competent people have already reached a solution to the dilemma
i remembered late gen jamshed gulzar kiani.
he quoted once meeting an indian general of his renk in london and got surprised by the lack of quality of character and vision.
no offense to wider indian nation but its a fact that pakistan army is much more hard hitting force qualitatively
despite being small and under funded

All is clear now.

Nothing to do with soldiers.

We didn't spot, all these years, that one Pakistani general is worth fourteen Indian generals.

Explains a lot.

@Armchair , you have your intelligence inputs now. Please review and revise your war game.

 

[PanzerKiel]

I did and the key for him was surprising and moving past initial breakthrough and continuing. His most important tactic I think. If you are fast enough, I don't think the Indians would expect you to attack them from behind their lines.

The biggest lesson from the Italian front is that troops guarding a front that are not careful about the enemy are caught unawares, and once someone like Rommel penetrates he can continue on to the next line of defense and possibly penetrate that as well as the enemy is caught unawares.

If you break through the DCBs and attack them from behind, you should be able to get quite a few of them with little to no fight (or so my reading of Rommel tells me).

Another point which you have missed is the comparison of Libyan Desert and our desert here. I used to think the same about two decades ago that what happened in Africa can be replicated here. Later i found that both the deserts are very different. With regards to mobility, our desert has sand upto 7-8 meters deep. You will be surprised to know that there are a lot many places where even mechanized forces cannot go due to sandy dunes, slip faces and deep sand. It is easier turning a flank in the Libyan Desert, however its a completely different ball game here in the sub-continent.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Another point which you have missed is the comparison of Libyan Desert and our desert here. I used to think the same about two decades ago that what happened in Africa can be replicated here. Later i found that both the deserts are very different. With regards to mobility, our desert has sand upto 7-8 meters deep. You will be surprised to know that there are a lot many places where even mechanized forces cannot go due to sandy dunes, slip faces and deep sand. It is easier turning a flank in the Libyan Desert, however its a completely different ball game here in the sub-continent.

@Armchair

#218

Goriber kotha keu shonay na.

 

[Armchair]

Will be fixing that up a bit later (broken links)...need a bit of time to get to it.

On Guj/Sindh rann of kutch area etc, the info was quite sparsely populated if I remember (esp on Indian side) since its just official basing. I will take a snap of there too to show you what I got when I fix things up later.

thanks @Nilgiri looking forward to it. There is a cantonment at Bhuj but my OSINT suggests extremely minor deployments (from facebook postings of Indian military personnel).

@Armchair

#218

Goriber kotha keu shonay na.

My apologies I thought I'd replied to post #218 I've not been to the area but understand the terrain in the sense that its very inaccessible, the sand is such that vehicular movement through it (or even human movement) is limited.

About the mortars part - its a gun mortar a hybrid between a mortar and a gun. check out the videos I think they are a brilliant idea for Pakistan as they don't need the metallurgy of an artillery piece (thus cheaper and simpler to build).

Another point which you have missed is the comparison of Libyan Desert and our desert here. I used to think the same about two decades ago that what happened in Africa can be replicated here. Later i found that both the deserts are very different. With regards to mobility, our desert has sand upto 7-8 meters deep. You will be surprised to know that there are a lot many places where even mechanized forces cannot go due to sandy dunes, slip faces and deep sand. It is easier turning a flank in the Libyan Desert, however its a completely different ball game here in the sub-continent.

Yes I learned this from you too. I think multiple axis attack on Jaisalmer is possible an the road network beyond Jaisalmer would allow access to every possible direction North, East, South. I understand it won't be easy as its narrow roadways with minimal ability to get out of these choke points.

Check out the N120. Then from Gadra rd towards Girab. Satyaya. Then there are the huge numbers of what appears to be country roads / dirt tracks. If one utilizes every possible venue it does disperse to some extent the assault. Even if a few of these succeed, you're through.

Beyond Jaisalmer the road and the country opens up. You can move North East now with relative ease. You are now in the enemy's rear. You're picking out their ammo stores, their supplies, their artillery, their gas stations, ultimately their airfields.

I haven't had combat experience but I've had experience of seeing the civil war in Papua new Guinea in the Highlands. The highway is key, and you can't really move without that highway. Fighting takes place along the highway and whoever controls the roads wins. I think this is not too far from that situation.

 

[Armchair]

@PanzerKiel the plan from the very beginning has been to turn north east after Jaisalmer and attack Bikaner from behind. I think its a right hook. The attack is at sufficient depth that Indian assets in the axis are vulnerable.

 

[Joe Shearer]

thanks @Nilgiri looking forward to it. There is a cantonment at Bhuj but my OSINT suggests extremely minor deployments (from facebook postings of Indian military personnel).



My apologies I thought I'd replied to post #218 I've not been to the area but understand the terrain in the sense that its very inaccessible, the sand is such that vehicular movement through it (or even human movement) is limited.

About the mortars part - its a gun mortar a hybrid between a mortar and a gun. check out the videos I think they are a brilliant idea for Pakistan as they don't need the metallurgy of an artillery piece (thus cheaper and simpler to build).



Yes I learned this from you too. I think multiple axis attack on Jaisalmer is possible an the road network beyond Jaisalmer would allow access to every possible direction North, East, South. I understand it won't be easy as its narrow roadways with minimal ability to get out of these choke points.

Check out the N120. Then from Gadra rd towards Girab. Satyaya. Then there are the huge numbers of what appears to be country roads / dirt tracks. If one utilizes every possible venue it does disperse to some extent the assault. Even if a few of these succeed, you're through.

Beyond Jaisalmer the road and the country opens up. You can move North East now with relative ease. You are now in the enemy's rear. You're picking out their ammo stores, their supplies, their artillery, their gas stations, ultimately their airfields.

I haven't had combat experience but I've had experience of seeing the civil war in Papua new Guinea in the Highlands. The highway is key, and you can't really move without that highway. Fighting takes place along the highway and whoever controls the roads wins. I think this is not too far from that situation.

I think you ought to read Z. A. Khan again, if only to remind yourself that Pakistani tadka of Chinese knock-offs of Russian tanks and armoured vehicles are not designed to run in sandy terrain.

@PanzerKiel the plan from the very beginning has been to turn north east after Jaisalmer and attack Bikaner from behind. I think its a right hook. The attack is at sufficient depth that Indian assets in the axis are vulnerable.

IF the attack gets that far.....

 

[Armchair]

I think you ought to read Z. A. Khan again, if only to remind yourself that Pakistani tadka of Chinese knock-offs of Russian tanks and armoured vehicles are not designed to run in sandy terrain.



IF the attack gets that far.....

But thanks for the road network. Tanks run over those just fine. : )

Here is a fun vehicle apparently US military loves them:

https://military.polaris.com/en-us/sportsman-mv-850/
Why the US military loves these:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a17336/special-forces-atv-marines-army/

 

[kongn]

thanks @Nilgiri looking forward to it. There is a cantonment at Bhuj but my OSINT suggests extremely minor deployments (from facebook postings of Indian military personnel).

I want you to take a look at the general terrain and highway-rail network of the area if you want to make realistic plans.

Why what you have proposed is unrealistic .Marine invasion is not possible due to dominance of indian navy.Sir creek area is only suited for minor incursions due to terrain,not any major advance,manned by BSF and rangers.You have one road leading to bhuj from pak side and that ends in a chokepoint near dhrobana.Lets say you push back BSF in a surprise attack and go through the border bunkers,wire and mines and BSF falls back to dhrobana,it can be reinforced by the brigade from general area bhuj(which does have a army barracks area,BSF camp an airport as well an IAF campus).Now you are frontally stuck before dhrobana chokepoint while being supplied by a single road(which is not a continuous connection on pak side).This road is in clear view and under artillery attack from dhordo area.Not an envious position.Bhuj itself can be easily reinforced and resupplied from highway and rail from ahmedabad,from mundra port(largest cargo port in india),as well as from air(20,000 strong parachute regiment as national strategic reserve).

The attack plan from nagarparkar is also not viable and probably worse.First you have a restricted assembly area supplied by one road,and also one road into indian territory.Lets say you push back BSF in opening attack and it falls back towards benap and by the 2nd infantry brigade of the ahmedabad HQ 11th infantry div .Now you are again stuck before a chokepoint,with reinforcements(3rd divisional brigade+arty brig,plus one mech inf brigade and one iab of XII corps in reserve) and resupply coming from 5 different roads,whereas all you have is one tenuous road connection. Worse your one supply road can be brought under artillery fire from 3 directions by the arty brigade of 11 div and others.Finally XII corps can easily order 12RAPID division from jodhpur to move via the highway from bakhasar straight into your rear take virawah and set up a defensive strongpoint with its infantry brigades to prevent reinforcements while letting loose its 2 armoured regiments into your rear.Then you would be out of supply in enemy territory,stuck frontally,under artillery attack from flanks and enemy armour squeezing you from the rear.Result will be a kessel or pocket and the destruction of your whole attacking force in this axis.So the plan is too far fetched.

I would suggest if you want to make future plans you do them on maps that shows road-rail connections and proper axis of advance and also take into account terrain.