A three tier attack capability?

[Kompromat]

* Pakistan asked the US to sell the AC-130 Spooky Gunship for COIN operations which for whatever reason was rejected by the US.

* Pakistan operates 50 odd frames of AH-1F/S Cobras which are depleting fast due to the operational stresses coped during last ten years of war, hence a replacement is due.

* After T-129 deal stalled due to US refusing to sell engines, the AH-1Z Viper was cleared for sale to Pakistan and it seems to be underway.

* Pakistan also got 3 Z-10 Thunderbolt helicopters from China for test and evaluation in the battlefield.

* Pakistan placed an order for an initial batch of 4 Mi-35 Assault Helicopters with a bigger order expected to be placed later.

This indicates a few things.

* Cobras might be replaced by 15 Zulus plus remaining units to be replaced by Z-10s. Some sources also cite the role attack helicopters have to play in a Cold Start like situation with India acquiring AH-64D followed by a large number of cheaper locally built platforms like LCH, it becomes cruicial for Pakistan to add attack helicopters in numbers.

They also stated that China is willing to commit to generous offer including the assembly of more than 50 Thunderbolts and local manufacturing of spares.

* More than 20 Mi-35s can be bought and will be used for Special Operations.

So is it possible that Pakistan might be headed for a 3 tier attack capability?

Tier-1: AH-1Z VIPER (15)
Tier-2: Z-10 Thunderbolt (40-50)

Total - Up to 70 with all Cobras replaced eventually and the fleet strengthened with 15-20 extra units to meet evolving threats?

Tier-3: Mi-35M Hind-E (20)

Assault Helicopter to negotiate asymmetric threats of various nature.

Opinions?

@Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Xeric @Icarus @Hyperion

 

[tarrar]

Good analysis, but I believe PD will increase the number of Zulus, they will have to as 15 are not enough. PD will have to acquire at least 50 more of Zulus. Also MI35 E number is not enough but as various articles suggests that PD will acquire at least 20-30 of MI35 E which is a good news for our Special forces. If WZ10 pass the battlefield test with flying numbers then surely PD will go for WZ10 as China will & is offering them with good package, possibly with ToT.

For future of PD's MI17, PD might replace them with WZ20 if they get inducted in PLA, as PD's MI17 are giving bad results like crashes which happened in recent times.

 

[HariPrasad]

* Pakistan asked the US to sell the AC-130 Spooky Gunship for COIN operations which for whatever reason was rejected by the US.

* Pakistan operates 50 odd frames of AH-1F/S Cobras which are depleting fast due to the operational stresses coped during last ten years of war, hence a replacement is due.

* After T-129 deal stalled due to US refusing to sell engines, the AH-1Z Viper was cleared for sale to Pakistan and it seems to be underway.

* Pakistan also got 3 Z-10 Thunderbolt helicopters from China for test and evaluation in the battlefield.

* Pakistan placed an order for an initial batch of 4 Mi-35 Assault Helicopters with a bigger order expected to be placed later.

This indicates a few things.

* Cobras might be replaced by 15 Zulus plus remaining units to be replaced by Z-10s. Some sources also cite the role attack helicopters have to play in a Cold Start like situation with India acquiring AH-64D followed by a large number of cheaper locally built platforms like LCH, it becomes cruicial for Pakistan to add attack helicopters in numbers.

They also stated that China is willing to commit to generous offer including the assembly of more than 50 Thunderbolts and local manufacturing of spares.

* More than 20 Mi-35s can be bought and will be used for Special Operations.

So is it possible that Pakistan might be headed for a 3 tier attack capability?

Tier-1: AH-1Z VIPER (15)
Tier-2: Z-10 Thunderbolt (40-50)

Total - Up to 70 with all Cobras replaced eventually and the fleet strengthened with 15-20 extra units to meet evolving threats?

Tier-3: Mi-35M Hind-E (20)

Assault Helicopter to negotiate asymmetric threats of various nature.

Opinions?

@Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Xeric @Icarus @Hyperion

Good information. If this is your compilation than your efforts deserves complements.

 

[RAMPAGE]

That is a $3.5 billion acquisition if the average unit cost of Mi 35 and Z 10 is taken as $35 million.

Now, you tell me if it is possible.

If it were up to me, i'd rather invest in shoulder launched ATGMs and another layer of defence against armour by feilding long range ground lauched NLOS ATGMs such as the Chinese CM-501G or the Serbian ALAS.

A squadron of AH 1Z and Mi 35 for COIN ops makes sense to me.

 

[Kompromat]

I'm not sure about your costing, however I tend to agree on the IR-ATGM and NLOS points of yours. I think we will buy a license for HJ-12 at some point.

It must be noted that ATGMs are not an alternative to helicopters by any stretch of the imagination.

That is a $3.5 billion acquisition if the average unit cost of Mi 35 and Z 10 is taken as $35 million.

Now, you tell me if it is possible.

If it were up to me, i'd rather invest in shoulder launched ATGMs and another layer of defence against armour by feilding long range ground lauched NLOS ATGMs such as the Chinese CM-501G or the Serbian ALAS.

A squadron of AH 1Z and Mi 35 for COIN ops makes sense to me.

 

[انگریز]

Very costly proposition.
Vipers seem to be reserved for India not TTP as too expensive and hightech.
Z-10 would be the cheaper substitution for aging cobras.
Mi-35 for dual role as transport + gunship as MI-17 also getting old and need replacement.

For war on terror best way would be to have high tech equipment for border control. More thermal cameras. Ground survaillamce radars and well linked border posts. Thats where the money should be invested.
Gunships can do only so much.

 

[Kompromat]

This is a once in a generation acquisition so it is going to be expensive. Pakistan has the option to join the Z-20 helicopter development to produce them at home for replacement of Mi-17 and other copters in next 20 years.

Very costly proposition.
Vipers seem to be reserved for India not TTP as too expensive and hightech.
Z-10 would be the cheaper aubstitution for aging cobras.
Mi-35 for dual role as transport + gunship as MI-17 also getting old and need replacement.

 

[انگریز]

This is a once in a generation acquisition so it is going to be expensive. Pakistan has the option to join the Z-20 helicopter development to produce them at home for replacement of Mi-17 and other copters in next 20 years.

Dont you think 65k usd hellfire 2 for a TTP mud hut is ubber expensive?
And not sure if americans will allowvintegeation of Pakistan own systems on Vipers.

I rather have money spent on NUST made ground survaillance radars in bulk to make borders water tight.

 

[Kompromat]

Hellfires for Zulus
AKD-10s for Thunderbolts

I think I have made it clear that Mi-35s will assume the COIN operations.

Dont you think 65k usd hellfire 2 for a TTP mud hut is ubber expensive?
And not sure if americans will allowvintegeation of Pakistan own systems on Vipers.

 

[C130]

AC-130 Spooky Gunship isn't for sell to anybody besides the U.S. they are expensive to buy and maintain so I doubt Pakistan could afford them in the first place.

but if Pakistan really wants a gunship like the AC-130 there are alternatives like Jordans pocket-gunship.

Jordan’s AC-235 and AC-295 Pocket Gunships

 

[Zarvan]

* Pakistan asked the US to sell the AC-130 Spooky Gunship for COIN operations which for whatever reason was rejected by the US.

* Pakistan operates 50 odd frames of AH-1F/S Cobras which are depleting fast due to the operational stresses coped during last ten years of war, hence a replacement is due.

* After T-129 deal stalled due to US refusing to sell engines, the AH-1Z Viper was cleared for sale to Pakistan and it seems to be underway.

* Pakistan also got 3 Z-10 Thunderbolt helicopters from China for test and evaluation in the battlefield.

* Pakistan placed an order for an initial batch of 4 Mi-35 Assault Helicopters with a bigger order expected to be placed later.

This indicates a few things.

* Cobras might be replaced by 15 Zulus plus remaining units to be replaced by Z-10s. Some sources also cite the role attack helicopters have to play in a Cold Start like situation with India acquiring AH-64D followed by a large number of cheaper locally built platforms like LCH, it becomes cruicial for Pakistan to add attack helicopters in numbers.

They also stated that China is willing to commit to generous offer including the assembly of more than 50 Thunderbolts and local manufacturing of spares.

* More than 20 Mi-35s can be bought and will be used for Special Operations.

So is it possible that Pakistan might be headed for a 3 tier attack capability?

Tier-1: AH-1Z VIPER (15)
Tier-2: Z-10 Thunderbolt (40-50)

Total - Up to 70 with all Cobras replaced eventually and the fleet strengthened with 15-20 extra units to meet evolving threats?

Tier-3: Mi-35M Hind-E (20)

Assault Helicopter to negotiate asymmetric threats of various nature.

Opinions?

@Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Xeric @Icarus @Hyperion

Pakistan should ask USA to increase number of vipers to 20 specially if the want our corporation for peace in Afghanistan and buy 40 WZ-10 from China with the most recent up grades they have done to WZ-10 including engine. As for MI-35 we should buy 20 of those but for special forces. They can be effectively used first to launch massive counter attack against Indian armor and than sending in special forces in. As for TTP for them at max 20 helicopters are enough. They are pretty much on the run so why use lot of helicopters for them. What we need to is hot pursuit against TTP leaders in Afghanistan.

 

[RAMPAGE]

It must be noted that ATGMs are not an alternative to helicopters by any stretch of the imagination.

Long lange (60-70km) ATGMs are an alternative to anti armor role of choppers.

Ok, let me say it this way, if i had a billion dollars to strengthen my defence against Indian armour thrust, i'd spend them on an additional layer of defence by long range ATGMs mounted on vehicles (which'll give them a good shoot and scoot capability) and on replacing our HJ-8s with newest generation ATGMs such as HJ 12.

 

[انگریز]

True AC-130 are expensive to maintain as airframe life gets halved due to jolts of the cannon and the twisting tirning maneuverong to keep it on target.
I wonder why Pakistan never considers fitting K-8 with guns and using against terrorists. Much cheaper and affordable and swarms cam be sent.

AC-130 Spooky Gunship isn't for sell to anybody besides the U.S. they are expensive to buy and maintain so I doubt Pakistan could afford them in the first place.

but if Pakistan really wants a gunship like the AC-130 there are alternatives like Jordans pocket-gunship.

Jordan’s AC-235 and AC-295 Pocket Gunships

Although AC-130 may not be for sale but European Spartan is.

Long lange (60-70 km) ATGMs are an alternative if you're to anti armor role of choppers.

Ok, let me say it this way, if i had a billion dollars to strengthen my defence against Indian armour thrust, i'd spend them on an additional layer of defence by long range ATGMs mounted on vehicles (which'll give them a good shoot and scoot capability) and on replacing our HJ-8s with newest generation ATGMs such as HJ 12.

ATGM cannot be used for close air suppport for advancing ground troops?

 

[RAMPAGE]

ATGM cannot be used for close air suppport for advancing ground troops?

PAF's fixed wing ACs can provide CAS, can't they?

I'd like to ask our seniors if an attack chopper is necessary for CAS in our (conventional war) scenario.

It should be noted that i have suggested long range ATGMs as an alternative to anti armour role of choppers.

 

[shahzadaf]

Good post, great replies. My solution is much simple. Get everything, The missiles, the helicopters and the production capability. Let not the enemy think we are weak. Lets not debate the cost, Pakistan is heading for a crossroad and if we can loose billions on our politicians, we can certainly kitty up for our defense.