A three tier attack capability?

[Goenitz]

never considers fitting K-8 wit

what about retired palne like saber, f-6 even modernized fury.. just thinking for TTPs spitfire or P51 are eough but with much delay response ...
anyway can our retired planes be resued? for idk scouting, surveillance, with pods jammers or radar etc etc?
or these are past tense?

 

[Neptune]

Any ground attack aircraft in service ?

 

[TaimiKhan]

I think if we can get a platform like AC-130, it would be a great boost for COIN ops in the long run as this fight is still going to go for many years to come.

And as for attack helicopters a force of 70-80 helis may be enough, but with short of funds and limited budget maintaining a big fleet for offensive missions or defensive missions may not be possible. What we can do for shutting the cold start kind of ops or any armor push, invest in HJ-12 kind of ATGMs. Field it in numbers with infantry soldiers, who will have a better chance to stop these armor offensives. Also get NLOS missile kind of systems, AFT-10 / CM-501 are the kind of missiles which should be inducted. They are cheap, can be fielded in thousands and with Chinese assistance can be produced locally thus bringing its cost down.

Do remember our eastern neighbors have mobile SAM systems too which may be covering their armor formations, thus attack helicopters may be at great risk to them, so have a decent affordable attack helicopter fleet and supplement with a very decent short range and long range ATGM systems.

 

[war&peace]

The best approach is develop our own choppers with collaboration or ToT basis. As the offer is there from China for Z-10 choppers. As JF-17 has been a success story for Pakistan, now we are developing blocks II and III implying advancement in evolutionary and mature way. Indigenously built choppers will be much cheaper and in future we can develop more advance machines and integrate our own weapon systems, export them and produce civil variants too. This should be complemented with long range ATGMs and SAMs.

 

[Max Pain]

Is it possible if we could ask USA for a Squadron of A 10,
I mean I cant think of a Plane any better than A 10 for Ground Attack,

there has been news that they might be retired so why not Ask USA for Them,

GAU 8 has no match in this Planet.

 

[Kompromat]

Can we please leave A-10s out and focus on the topic itself?

No.

Any ground attack aircraft in service ?

 

[Tipu7]

* Pakistan asked the US to sell the AC-130 Spooky Gunship for COIN operations which for whatever reason was rejected by the US.

* Pakistan operates 50 odd frames of AH-1F/S Cobras which are depleting fast due to the operational stresses coped during last ten years of war, hence a replacement is due.

* After T-129 deal stalled due to US refusing to sell engines, the AH-1Z Viper was cleared for sale to Pakistan and it seems to be underway.

* Pakistan also got 3 Z-10 Thunderbolt helicopters from China for test and evaluation in the battlefield.

* Pakistan placed an order for an initial batch of 4 Mi-35 Assault Helicopters with a bigger order expected to be placed later.

This indicates a few things.

* Cobras might be replaced by 15 Zulus plus remaining units to be replaced by Z-10s. Some sources also cite the role attack helicopters have to play in a Cold Start like situation with India acquiring AH-64D followed by a large number of cheaper locally built platforms like LCH, it becomes cruicial for Pakistan to add attack helicopters in numbers.

They also stated that China is willing to commit to generous offer including the assembly of more than 50 Thunderbolts and local manufacturing of spares.

* More than 20 Mi-35s can be bought and will be used for Special Operations.

So is it possible that Pakistan might be headed for a 3 tier attack capability?

Tier-1: AH-1Z VIPER (15)
Tier-2: Z-10 Thunderbolt (40-50)

Total - Up to 70 with all Cobras replaced eventually and the fleet strengthened with 15-20 extra units to meet evolving threats?

Tier-3: Mi-35M Hind-E (20)

Assault Helicopter to negotiate asymmetric threats of various nature.

Opinions?

@Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Xeric @Icarus @Hyperion

Vipers are here to replace Cobras. We operate some 40 of Cobras but I don't think they all are operational. By time Viper will arrive I hope Operation will be complete and TTP will miss chance to witness their new hunter......
Mean time Viper will serve as counter to Indian Apache....... And Z10 is there to be inducted any time and any quantity ...... We can get enough numbers of them.......Hinds are for special operation and they cannot replace Mi17...... even Z20 cannot replace Mi17........ in case of heavy transport, Mi17 can be replaced by New Mi17 from Russia....
A total of 15 Vipers, 40 Thundebolts and 25 Hinds is good number........
Fact is they will not be used against terrorists, their primary role from day one is antiarmor..... they all will be used against India and that is their primary purpose......only thing I fear is that in case of IndoPak conflict US can put sanctions on missiles,making viper useless...... Russians can also do that for Hinds....... our only independent and trust worthy option is Z10.........

what about retired palne like saber, f-6 even modernized fury.. just thinking for TTPs spitfire or P51 are eough but with much delay response ...
anyway can our retired planes be resued? for idk scouting, surveillance, with pods jammers or radar etc etc?
or these are past tense?

Hell No man.......

 

[Max Pain]

Can we please leave A-10s out and focus on the topic itself?

No.

lets also leave the AC 130 out.

what about retired palne like saber, f-6 even modernized fury.. just thinking for TTPs spitfire or P51 are eough but with much delay response ...
anyway can our retired planes be resued? for idk scouting, surveillance, with pods jammers or radar etc etc?
or these are past tense?

Goenitz Pls!

 

[Tipu7]

Do remember our eastern neighbors have mobile SAM systems too which may be covering their armor formations, thus attack helicopters may be at great risk to them, so have a decent affordable attack helicopter fleet and supplement with a very decent short range and long range ATGM systems.

We also have mobile SAMS...... so it mean that one should stop buying Gunships?
ATGM cannot replace tanks or gunships.....they have their own role to play..... and Manpads and ATGM do not ensure 100% results...... Tank and Gunship both have APS systems to counter them..... in case of Tank vs ATGM usually Tank secures first kill opportunity...... same is with Man pads and Gunships.....

 

[TaimiKhan]

We also have mobile SAMS...... so it mean that one should stop buying Gunships?
ATGM cannot replace tanks or gunships.....they have their own role to play..... and Manpads and ATGM do not ensure 100% results...... Tank and Gunship both have APS systems to counter them..... in case of Tank vs ATGM usually Tank secures first kill opportunity...... same is with Man pads and Gunships.....

Our SAM system consists of just MANPADS, while our enemy has more advanced systems then just MANPADS.

As for your 2nd opinion of Tanks getting first shot, plz look at the videos coming out of Syria and see how Syrian tanks are getting blown up with the tanks and its crew not knowing what happened to them.

 

[Bratva]

That is a $3.5 billion acquisition if the average unit cost of Mi 35 and Z 10 is taken as $35 million.

Now, you tell me if it is possible.

If it were up to me, i'd rather invest in shoulder launched ATGMs and another layer of defence against armour by feilding long range ground lauched NLOS ATGMs such as the Chinese CM-501G or the Serbian ALAS.

A squadron of AH 1Z and Mi 35 for COIN ops makes sense to me.

Before sending in the helos, one way to soften up the ground is to send a swarm of Burraq with modified HJ-10 ATGM (AR-1 aka Barq). Burraq would be ideal in Punjab and Sindh flat terrain because of Clear line of sight for RF communication. Whatever the feedback, Choppers can adapt real time to the situation and Burraq would be good for neutralizing Mobile SAMs @TaimiKhan

 

[Tipu7]

Our SAM system consists of just MANPADS, while our enemy has more advanced systems then just MANPADS.

As for your 2nd opinion of Tanks getting first shot, plz look at the videos coming out of Syria and see how Syrian tanks are getting blown up with the tanks and its crew not knowing what happened to them.

Are Hq7b Man pads??
Syrian T55,T72 lack APS, even proper armor. They are not upgraded with latest packages..... Even if you are sitting in T90 which lack proper tracking and warning systems, then even few RPG can be deadly.....

 

[TaimiKhan]

Are Hq7b Man pads??
Syrian T55,T72 lack APS, even proper armor. They are not upgraded with latest packages..... Even if you are sitting in T90 which lack proper tracking and warning systems, then even few RPG can be deadly.....

HQ-7 have just been added in the inventory and we are not even sure for what purpose, but its very likely that they won't be there in the desert to protect the armor formations. Most probably they are for point defence protection for army installations or field HQs.

Syrian tanks even with heavy ERAs are getting blown up. Syrian tanks i quoted as example. Tanks will not be alone, mechanized infantry with their APCs will be there too with them, even if you take them out, it effects morale in great effect.

So attack helos are not the only solution, ATGMs will play a great part and may be in future counters to the soft / hard APS will also be arranged.

 

[Super Falcon]

AH1Z is sanction pron dont buy more in numbers opt for Z 10

 

[Jango]

I don't think we are going to be seeing Z-10 anytime soon.

From what i have heard from some folks and also inferred from various sources is that the Z-10 will be the long term attack helo for PAA, but in the near term the Zulu cobra provided the perfect tried and tested platform to be used in COIN ops and hence PAA preferred it for using it in the near future.