A strange but stable alliance: The Senate awaits Israeli instruction

[TruthSeeker]

I agree in a way sir however do you think strategic interests have anything to do with it as well?

No, I do not think (truly) that there are any USA strategic interests involved with our support of Israel. Our support of Israel is entirely due to the successful manipulation of our political processes by Jewish Americans and the effective exploitation of Christian propensity to be guilty about the holocaust, even though American Christians had nothing to do with it. Muslim intransigence in being willing to recognize Jewish suffering and their rights to a place in Palestine also plays into American sympathy for underdogs.

You cannot name any factual strategic benefit to the USA for our relationship with Israel. Every "benefit" that people argue is really only the "supposed" negation of a harm that our support has caused us. That is, all of our "benefits" are circular arguing. If we did not support Israel at all, then we would have zero need for these supposed benefits of our alliance.

 

[Falcon29]

No, I do not think (truly) that there are any USA strategic interests involved with our support of Israel. Our support of Israel is entirely due to the successful manipulation of our political processes by Jewish Americans and the effective exploitation of Christian propensity to be guilty about the holocaust, even though American Christians had nothing to do with it. Muslim intransigence in being willing to recognize Jewish suffering and their rights to a place in Palestine also plays into American sympathy for underdogs.

You cannot name any factual strategic benefit to the USA for our relationship with Israel. Every "benefit" that people argue is really only the "supposed" negation of a harm that our support has caused us. That is, all of our "benefits" are circular arguing. If we did not support Israel at all, then we would have zero need for these supposed benefits of our alliance.

I think you have the right answer to it. Because it's truly a people's thing that allows this to go on and on.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I think you have the right answer to it. Because it's truly a people's thing that allows this to go on and on.

But, Hazzy997, sir, I also blame Muslims in the region, and around the world, who deny the fact of Jewish suffering for centuries, and, will not make any concessions to allow Jews to live in peace. I believe that Jews have a right to live in Palestine. Personally I think Muslims should accept a single state solution, merge with Jews in a single state of Israel, provided they have equal civil rights under the law, the constitution. Then, over time, if Muslim demographics are superior to Jewish demographics, so be it. If, 50 years later, Israel is a Muslim majority state and wishes to change its name to "Palestine" by democratic vote, then fine.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Disagree with number #1, so Pakistani people are dumb since India occupies Kashmir?

Number #2 is more like whoever has more power and is immune to international law because their comrades enforce international law controls more land. However, this is not 'disputed' as Israelis argue. It's occupied territory.
...

yes they were

Feel free to disagree with #1 but that is a sad reality (for he losers)

But, Hazzy997, sir, I also blame Muslims in the region, and around the world, who deny the fact of Jewish suffering for centuries, and, will not make any concessions to allow Jews to live in peace. I believe that Jews have a right to live in Palestine. Personally I think Muslims should accept a single state solution, merge with Jews in a single state of Israel, provided they have equal civil rights under the law, the constitution. Then, over time, if Muslim demographics are superior to Jewish demographics, so be it. If, 50 years later, Israel is a Muslim majority state and wishes to change its name to "Palestine" by democratic vote, then fine.

That's a good suggestion.

Downside:

-- It needs a lot of patience.
-- Patience unfortunately is not a virtue in our part of the world
-- and hence the sad situation nay crapy situation prevailing here.

 

[TruthSeeker]

-- Patience unfortunately is not a virtue in our part of the world
-- and hence the sad situation nay crapy situation prevailing here.

Patience is not practiced, whether considered a virtue or not, in any part of the human world. However, I personally believe that the late 20th century, early 21st century belief in 8th century Islam is particularly debilitating. I mean, killing polio vaccine medical workers? It is hard to imagine any symptom of religious belief gone horribly awry, than that. If current Muslim thinking can foster and forgive such actions as that, then Islam's leaders are woefully inadequate or corrupt. I really, really don't think Allah approves of his disciples who kill nurses and doctors who are trying to prevent children from being crippled by polio, and do it in His name.

 

[Levina]

@Hazzy997
My post might sound dilettantish infront of the think tanks here.
But from what my mind concurs there are more Jews in the US than there are in Israel. Jews vote, Jews contribute to political campaigns, Jews have been a part of the political landscape in the US for over a century.
And that should exactly be the reason why Israel receives close to 7million tax payer's dollars on an average.

 

[Falcon29]

But, Hazzy997, sir, I also blame Muslims in the region, and around the world, who deny the fact of Jewish suffering for centuries, and, will not make any concessions to allow Jews to live in peace. I believe that Jews have a right to live in Palestine. Personally I think Muslims should accept a single state solution, merge with Jews in a single state of Israel, provided they have equal civil rights under the law, the constitution. Then, over time, if Muslim demographics are superior to Jewish demographics, so be it. If, 50 years later, Israel is a Muslim majority state and wishes to change its name to "Palestine" by democratic vote, then fine.

I agree but I also think we Muslims aren't in position to even consider our own self determination, I see a long struggle that has been in the making and is currently taking place and will take place in the future. Muslims are trying to make drastic changes in the region and many areas are becoming non state actors which I believe is the first step into some kind of change. It also comes with a lot of violence which is something we really can't change sir.

I also do believe they have a right in Palestine and we aren't extreme about this. Maybe AQ is a different story however Palestinians don't believe in such things. As for one state solution, we would accept this any day and it's highly unlikely that would ever happen because Jews want to preserve their majority demographics in Israel.

I really think this issue should be pushed for later, we have many things to worry about as Muslims although I believe we should keep spreading awareness amongst our people. I really see something significant in the Middle East, something looks very different and what's to come will be significant.

Patience is not practiced, whether considered a virtue or not, in any part of the human world. However, I personally believe that the late 20th century, early 21st century belief in 8th century Islam is particularly debilitating. I mean, killing polio vaccine medical workers? It is hard to imagine any symptom of religious belief gone horribly awry, than that. If current Muslim thinking can foster and forgive such actions as that, then Islam's leaders are woefully inadequate or corrupt. I really, really don't think Allah approves of his disciples who kill nurses and doctors who are trying to prevent children from being crippled by polio, and do it in His name.

Of course this is true, those men are insane. Our problem is also we have too many village idiots and nobodies claiming to be scholars these days and we don't have a strong foundation like we used to. I honestly don't know how our Prophet(SAW) managed to keep the Arabs under control and yet even after his death we had people renounce their faith. Religion is amazing if we can do things right and it's not a game. This is why Allah says I will give you victory and only me...it sounds like something too simple, but we humans aren't mature enough to even set ourselves on one path with mutual goals.

 

[FaujHistorian]

...... Muslims are trying to make drastic changes in the region and many areas are becoming non state actors which I believe is the first step into some kind of change.

Bunch of tribal barbarians destroying their own homes brick by brick, bombing and raping their own women

That's the change one can always live without.

So sorry to say

 

[TruthSeeker]

@Hazzy997
My post might sound dilettantish infront of the think tanks here.
But from what my mind concurs there are more Jews in the US than there are in Israel. Jews vote, Jews contribute to political campaigns, Jews have been a part of the political landscape in the US for over a century.
And that should exactly be the reason why Israel receives close to 7million tax payer's dollars on an average.

Yes, that is almost true. The number of Jewish Americans is close to the number of Israeli citizens, about 6 million in each case. In the USA, however, this 6 million Jewish Americans represents only ~ 2% of the USA population. Nonetheless, Jewish Americans hold about 10% of the seats in the US Senate and about 8% of the seats in the US House of Representatives, far greater than their population-based "share". In addition to this, Jewish influence over USA media is unusually out of proportion to that 2% population figure, probably even more that the "5 times" figure of actual representation in Congress. So, you are correct, but, are underplaying how extraordinarily influential this 2% of the USA's population is on the issue that they most care about ----Israel.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Yes, that is almost true. The number of Jewish Americans is close to the number of Israeli citizens, about 6 million in each case. In the USA, however, this 6 million Jewish Americans represents only ~ 2% of the USA population. Nonetheless, Jewish Americans hold about 10% of the seats in the US Senate and about 8% of the seats in the US House of Representatives, far greater than their population-based "share". In addition to this, Jewish influence over USA media is unusually out of proportion to that 2% population figure, probably even more that the "5 times" figure of actual representation in Congress. So, you are correct, but, are underplaying how extraordinarily influential this 2% of the USA's population is on the issue that most care about ----Israel.

FYI

American policies were pro-Israel long before Jewish Americans were that many in the Congress.

It is not about just the Jewish Lobby

It is also about Americans lobbying for Israel and that lobby is more powerful and much longer in play.

 

[TruthSeeker]

FYI

American policies were pro-Israel long before Jewish Americans were that many in the Congress.

It is not about just the Jewish Lobby

It is also about Americans lobbying for Israel and that lobby is more powerful and much longer in play.

Yes, I think that post-WWII, American sympathy for Jewish suffering at the hands of the Nazis was the driving force for USA support for Israel. However, post-1967 I think that the American Jewish lobby's successful manipulation of Christian Protestant beliefs in the sanctity of the Holy Lands, and the perceived ability of Israel to guard them from Muslim defilement, has been important in sustaining the initial holocaust-based pro-Israel thinking among Protestants. Then, Jewish American financial and media support of the Democratic Party, and Jewish American political candidates within that Party, have further amplified the pro-Israel strength to control American middle East foreign policy. Today, Jewish American support is absolutely necessary for any Democratic Party candidate at any political level in our system. No Democrat who is perceived as anti-Israel can win a primary or a general election. As a result, all other members of the Democratic Party "base" (African-Americans, unions, gays and feminists) toe the pro-Israel line as pay-back for Jewish American political, financial and media support.

 

[Falcon29]

Yes, I think that post-WWII, American sympathy for Jewish suffering at the hands of the Nazis was the driving force for USA support for Israel. However, post-1967 I think that the American Jewish lobby's successful manipulation of Christian Protestant beliefs in the sanctity of the Holy Lands, and the perceived ability of Israel to guard them from Muslim defilement, has been important in sustaining the initial holocaust-based pro-Israel thinking among Protestants. Then, Jewish American financial and media support of the Democratic Party, and Jewish American political candidates within that Party, have further amplified the pro-Israel strength to control American middle East foreign policy. Today, Jewish American support is absolutely necessary for any Democratic Party candidate at any political level in our system. No Democrat who is perceived as anti-Israel can win a primary or a general election. As a result, all other members of the Democratic Party "base" (African-Americans, unions, gays and feminists) toe the pro-Israel line as pay-back for Jewish American political, financial and media support.

You are very informed and know how to describe things in a way that makes sense. These are true feelings some people have in our country and it does play a factor as well.

 

[Developereo]

I also blame Muslims in the region, and around the world, who deny the fact of Jewish suffering for centuries, and, will not make any concessions to allow Jews to live in peace. I believe that Jews have a right to live in Palestine.

Prior to the Palestinian conflict, Muslims were quite open and appreciative of the Jews' position. I agree the Jews have a right to live in a safe haven but the whole question is why it has to be in Palestine, at the Palestinians' expense. Herzl himself was not too keen on Palestine,

As for the Jews' right to Palestinian land, that is a complex subject. Leaving aside the fact that a small number of Jews did buy their land legitimately, albeit clandestinely, from the Arabs, the question remains why the rest of Jews have a preemptive "right" to this land. Simply having the right religion is not a justification: few would argue that a Christian Filipino has the "right" to live in Bethlehem.

Coming to genetics, the matter gets complicated. Some, including Israeli Jews, claim that the genetic makeup of today's Israelis is predominantly European, and the original Sephardic genes are not in the majority. Other studies claim that the majority population shares ancient genetic linkages. Either way, if pure genetics is used as an excuse, there is no reason to deny entry to Palestinians either.

Bottom line is that modern Israel is a result of colonial imposition. Woodrow Wilson, who was a champion of anti-colonialism and returning colonial land to indigenous peoples, made an exemption for Palestine and supported the Balfour Declaration due to Jewish lobbying. This was long before the Holocaust itself, so it wasn't guilt per se that was the driving force behind American support of Israel.

Personally I think Muslims should accept a single state solution, merge with Jews in a single state of Israel,

You are far too well-informed to be making such a suggestion. Surely, you know that the biggest opponents of what you propose are the Jews themselves. There is no way on this earth they will accept anything that will dilute the "Jewish nature" of Israel. Denying the Palestinians' right of return is only the tip of the iceberg here.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Surely, you know that the biggest opponents of what you propose are the Jews themselves. There is no way on this earth they will accept anything that will dilute the "Jewish nature" of Israel. Denying the Palestinians' right of return is only the tip of the iceberg here.

I disagree. At the very least they (the Israelis) should be severely tested on their willingness to "share" Palestine with the non-Jewish Palestinians. If the non-Jewish Palestinians offered a settlement of the conflict base on an economic federation of the West Bank with Israel, accept calling the West Bank a province of Israel called Palestine, and offered to accept Israeli federal management of foreign policy and defense forces, then I'm not confident that Jewish Palestinians (Israelis) could refuse and still maintain support of Europe, Canada and, perhaps , even of the USA.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Yes, I think that post-WWII, American sympathy for Jewish suffering at the hands of the Nazis was the driving force for USA support for Israel. However, post-1967 I think that the American Jewish lobby's successful manipulation of Christian Protestant beliefs in the sanctity of the Holy Lands, and the perceived ability of Israel to guard them from Muslim defilement, has been important in sustaining the initial holocaust-based pro-Israel thinking among Protestants. Then, Jewish American financial and media support of the Democratic Party, and Jewish American political candidates within that Party, have further amplified the pro-Israel strength to control American middle East foreign policy. Today, Jewish American support is absolutely necessary for any Democratic Party candidate at any political level in our system. No Democrat who is perceived as anti-Israel can win a primary or a general election. As a result, all other members of the Democratic Party "base" (African-Americans, unions, gays and feminists) toe the pro-Israel line as pay-back for Jewish American political, financial and media support.

What you say Sir has a lot of weight.

My only issue is to not drag religion from the get go.

Americans form alliances based on economic and strategic interests.

Religion ONLY comes in as an icing on the cake.

Oh and that religion can be anything and everything including Jih@di Islamists all the way to Hindu religious groups.

Palestinians lost because they continue picking the wrong side over and over again.

First Hitler and then Commies

so as to get any leverage at any cost. And thus they lost in the great ME game.

Not because of religion. Yaser Arafat type Palestinian leaders had no religious commonality with Commies in the post WW-2 era. They were just looking for any power that will support them to run Taliban/Qaida/Tamil style insurgency.

Had they tried to avoid militancy and sided with USA, then the jewish lobby could not have done much.

Thank you

I disagree. At the very least they (the Israelis) should be severely tested on their willingness to "share" Palestine with the non-Jewish Palestinians. If the non-Jewish Palestinians offered a settlement of the conflict base on an economic federation of the West Bank with Israel, accept calling the West Bank a province of Israel called Palestine, and offered to accept Israeli federal management of foreign policy and defense forces, then I'm not confident that Jewish Palestinians (Israelis) could refuse and still maintain support of Europe, Canada and, perhaps , even of the USA.

Bravo!

Extremely important suggestion.

I wish Palestinians follow this.

#1- In this world you can play chess with your opponent
or
#2- have a bar-fight.

#1 should always be the first option

and #2 should be avoided at all costs because this option can only be one with superior economy, and military numbers.

Unfortunately from 1948 Palestinian leadership have relied heavily on option #2
and thus got hurt over and over and over and over again