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A Shudra defeated the Mughals and the British in 18th century

So you wrote a whole offensive post to troll this thread based on one word Shudra but isn't that word a Hindu product, just like Dalits, untouchables, wasn't the description of this ruler an Indian construct in the first place. This is the thing, in India, which I know you do not want disclosed to the world, however bit by bit the scales are coming off and people are reporting the unsavoury parts as well the Indian rise especially economically, and it is this that gets you in the gut and hence revert to your very Indian like habits since this is what Hinduism does - discriminate and reduce as many people to the garbage heap. Hence the appalling number of people living in terrible - inhuman conditions, it is a surprise that the International community has not called it a crime against humanity.
well sir few things

1.concept of india is as old as recorded history and go and check the old greek - roman books how they adress this sub continent and by which name and what people lived here & of what relegeon im sure youl be surprised to see similarities between then and modern day "India"

2.every nation has problems and bad chaercters and bad traditions ..india is part of the world yees we had horrible evils like castesim but we came owt of it partially after first indian awekning in late 18th century and almost fully after 1947 and the things that followed but still you want to beleave we carry same old baggage then thats up to you as you people love to livein past not us indians any more

3.well you must have heared "jiski gari ret me fuddooo uska naam" and "jinke ghar dane unke kamle bhi sayane"

hope you got your answer Sir no hard feeling ..peace :coffee:
 
Usual nonsense debate because of identity crisis of upper caste Muslims. Pakistan was created by and for upper castes and hence Pakistan has nothing to do with Indus valley civilization (***the upper caste status depends on somehow claiming one's origin from Arabia/Central asians; the converted locals are supposed to be kameen lower castes to serve Ashraf masters) . They should search for their civilizations in central Asia and Arabia. Only lower caste Pakistanis can claim IVC to some extent,but then they are not true Pakistanis; they are enlaved Indians.

***In some parts of South Asia, the Muslims are divided as Ashrafs and Ajlafs.[5] Ashrafs claim a superior status derived from their foreign ancestry.[6][7] The non-Ashrafs are assumed to be converts from Hinduism, and are therefore drawn from the indigenous population. They, in turn, are divided into a number of occupational castes.[7]

Sections of the ulema (scholars of Islamic jurisprudence) provide religious legitimacy to caste with the help of the concept of kafa'a. A classical example of scholarly declaration of the Muslim caste system is the Fatawa-i-Jahandari, written by the fourteenth century Turkish scholar,Ziauddin Barani, a member of the court of Muhammad bin Tughlaq, of the Tughlaq dynasty of the Delhi Sultanate. Barani was known for his intensely casteist views, and regarded the Ashraf Muslims as racially superior to the Ajlaf Muslims. He divided the Muslims into grades and sub-grades. In his scheme, all high positions and privileges were to be a monopoly of the high born Turks, not the Indian Muslims.

Even in his interpretation of the Koranic verse "Indeed, the pious amongst you are most honored by Allah", he considered piety to be associated with noble birth. Barani was specific in his recommendation that the "sons of Mohamed" [i.e. Ashrafs] "be given a higher social status than the low-born [i.e. Ajlaf].[8] His most significant contribution in the fatwa was his analysis of the castes with respect to Islam.[8] His assertion was that castes would be mandated through state laws or "Zawabi" and would carry precedence over Sharia law whenever they were in conflict.[8]

In the Fatwa-i-Jahandari (advice XXI), he wrote about the "qualities of the high-born" as being "virtuous" and the "low-born" being the "custodian of vices". Every act which is "contaminated with meanness and based on ignominity, comes elegantly [from the Ajlaf]".[8] Barani had a clear disdain for the Ajlaf and strongly recommended that they be denied education, lest they usurp the Ashraf masters. He sought appropriate religious sanction to that effect.[4] Barani also developed an elaborate system of promotion and demotion of Imperial officers ("Wazirs") that was primarily on the basis of their caste.[8]

In addition to the Ashraf/Ajlaf divide, there is also the Arzal caste among Muslims, who were regarded by anti-Caste activists like as the equivalent of untouchables.[9][10] The term "Arzal" stands for "degraded" and the Arzal castes are further subdivided into Bhanar, Halalkhor, Hijra, Kasbi, Lalbegi, Maugta, Mehtar etc.[9][10][11] The Arzal group was recorded in the 1901 census in India and are also called Muslims “with whom no other Muhammadan would associate, and who are forbidden to enter the mosque or to use the public burial ground”. They are relegated to "menial" professions such as scavenging and carrying night soil.[12]
 
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well sir few things

1.concept of india is as old as recorded history and go and check the old greek - roman books how they adress this sub continent and by which name and what people lived here & of what relegeon im sure youl be surprised to see similarities between then and modern day "India"

2.every nation has problems and bad chaercters and bad traditions ..india is part of the world yees we had horrible evils like castesim but we came owt of it partially after first indian awekning in late 18th century and almost fully after 1947 and the things that followed but still you want to beleave we carry same old baggage then thats up to you as you people love to livein past not us indians any more

3.well you must have heared "jiski gari ret me fuddooo uska naam" and "jinke ghar dane unke kamle bhi sayane"

hope you got your answer Sir no hard feeling ..peace :coffee:

Peace to you too.

I am at a loss to understand your point. I am not disputing Indian history, the geographical land that makes south Asia is of course a permanent fixture and people have lived, moved, conquered that land. Many people from the Greeks to the British have done that. The point I was making was that you were offended by the word Shudra but it is your word. The descriptions applied to this ruler is one applied by the Indians themselves not by OP. He did not wake up and made a word and used it this in this context. Your offence is that someone used this word and hence you decided to become as offensive as possible by your racist and degrading comments about PK.

Thus I was merely pointing out some facts back to you, and no matter how much you say that we had an awakening, the ground realities of India is one that you continue to deny, whether because you are deluded or you are just lying to try to suppress the reality that India is not some super-power it is not some shiny Tiger economy in the mould of China or Singapore and that, there are so many issues and problems that it is baffling to the rest of us.

You continue to harp on about land reforms but in India thousands are commitiing suicide due to the same issues and much worse because of the pernicious and inhumane caste system that is alive and well and growing.

No hard feelings too. Live in Peace Bro.
 
Peace to you too.

I am at a loss to understand your point. I am not disputing Indian history, the geographical land that makes south Asia is of course a permanent fixture and people have lived, moved, conquered that land. Many people from the Greeks to the British have done that. The point I was making was that you were offended by the word Shudra but it is your word. The descriptions applied to this ruler is one applied by the Indians themselves not by OP. He did not wake up and made a word and used it this in this context. Your offence is that someone used this word and hence you decided to become as offensive as possible by your racist and degrading comments about PK.

Thus I was merely pointing out some facts back to you, and no matter how much you say that we had an awakening, the ground realities of India is one that you continue to deny, whether because you are deluded or you are just lying to try to suppress the reality that India is not some super-power it is not some shiny Tiger economy in the mould of China or Singapore and that, there are so many issues and problems that it is baffling to the rest of us.

You continue to harp on about land reforms but in India thousands are commitiing suicide due to the same issues and much worse because of the pernicious and inhumane caste system that is alive and well and growing.

No hard feelings too. Live in Peace Bro.
thanks for the reply bro
now my first point is that india was /is a peacefull civilization and to gain strenth we never attacked foreign lands but were always at the recieving end still we survived because of owr forgiving and positive nature
yes we had many issues regarding castesim and relegeous intolrence but despite all that past we learned from owr mistakes and went forward to create justice , liberty, equality to all based republick to which are sucsessful to some extend yes we are late but we are not down we are getting there it will take time and sacrifices
whats wrong in thinking and prepairing fior a better future after learning from owr mistakes from the past ..we indians have started thinking on the same basis as soon as we got independence
and the deaths of farmers are deu to bad irrigation and non payment of loans and that has much to do with genitically modiefied cotton breeds
as for land reforms come to india and see for yourself il take you to UP, punjab, haryan and rajasthan whose culture have most similarities with pakistan see how land reforms changed the thinkin of the peop;e here

let me tell you a short story in later part of 1st world war when british wanted jats to send there kids for war effort in eourope a jat leader rose named "Sir Chotoo Ram" and asked to abolish feudalism and free the lands of farmers from money lending "banyas" and british obliged for this many jat boys were sacrificed in eourope but there decendents became free for the future and they became a dominant "community" but that gave a massive blow to "banyas"(my comunity) so we set owt in different parts of India and did owr traditional job"trading" and within a couple of decades emarged as richest and most prospourus and one of the most educated& infuential "caste"..moral of the story instead of crying about past misfortunes and discrimination did to us or owr community/nation try to think & strive for a beter future while taking lessons from past mistakes and as they say "god helps those who help themselfs" and same was the case for the hindu refugees who came to northen india after 1947 they had nothing then but after there 65 years of struggle come and look at the punajabi comunity and its might in every spear of life ....positive approach is the key ..hope you get my point now sir
 
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1.On topic the Marathas are not Shudras. Mahadji Shinde was not a Shudra.He was the bastard son of [URL='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranoji_Scindia']Ranoji Scindia through a Rajput woman named Chima Bai.Ranoji was the founder of the Gwalior Maratha dynasty which survives till today.Currently [URL='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyotiraditya_Madhavrao_Scindia']Jyotiraditya Madhav Rao Scindia is considered the Maharaja of Gwalior & Ujjain.[/URL][/URL]

2. The Marathas do not have cast division calling themselves Maratha Hindus only. There is a small strain of Brahmin Marathas who exclusively perform religious functions. The lowest class in the Maratha society are Maratha Mahars who used to be manufacturers of weapons, and also worked for disposal/cremation of dead bodies. The Mahars are an aggressive lot, and have their own Mahar Regt.
 
well that is the biggest problem of Pakistanis . they are being taught that Pakistan is the last hope of Ummah and regarded as castle of islam. but no one from Ummah is ready to help Pakistan instead spreading terrorism in Pakistan. and the other part u mention in ur post about our Past . yeah we are proud on our Past it help us to boost our spirits we can rule them again.

aap ka khoon zyada garam hone se,humein pta hain ussey pakorhe kaise tlpna hain.

:) 
so you think Pakistan is only Punjab .?

acha ab aaye aukaat pe,

why do u guys repeat stuff everytime a new fuddu shows up here claiming what some moron wrote in their history books.
 
Its a positive development that some of you Indians end up praising a "low cast" Hindus to stand up to Pakistanis' comments on forum

I don't know how much of this "history" has been forged by Hindus to cater their delusional fantasies..

Indians, usually the South ones, believe white people to be of a higher caste, while south Indians are black. These black South Indians claim to be descendents of (white) Aryans, thus making them of a higher caste according to them, but at the same time, these black South Indians dream of the day when they would some how enslave white people and make them clean their poop.

These South Indians contradict themselves. It just shows how much they hate themselves really, and are delusional.
 
And yes one distinguishing factor of Maratha empire (and later Sikhs) was the social mobility and slight relaxation of caste system (though not as much as today's world). This way a large section of society was militarised and was available for fighting, unlike earlier centuries when fighting was only Kshatriya's job who were largely wiped out by central asian barbarian tribal invaders starting from 10/11th centuries . Before Marathas, the turks were contained by Vijayanagara empire, possibly founded by sheep-herder brothers.
 
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thanks for the reply bro
now my first point is that india was /is a peacefull civilization and to gain strenth we never attacked foreign lands but were always at the recieving end still we survived because of owr forgiving and positive nature
yes we had many issues regarding castesim and relegeous intolrence but despite all that past we learned from owr mistakes and went forward to create justice , liberty, equality to all based republick to which are sucsessful to some extend yes we are late but we are not down we are getting there it will take time and sacrifices
whats wrong in thinking and prepairing fior a better future after learning from owr mistakes from the past ..we indians have started thinking on the same basis as soon as we got independence
and the deaths of farmers are deu to bad irrigation and non payment of loans and that has much to do with genitically modiefied cotton breeds
as for land reforms come to india and see for yourself il take you to UP, punjab, haryan and rajasthan whose culture have most similarities with pakistan see how land reforms changed the thinkin of the peop;e here

let me tell you a short story in later part of 1st world war when british wanted jats to send there kids for war effort in eourope a jat leader rose named "Sir Chotoo Ram" and asked to abolish feudalism and free the lands of farmers from money lending "banyas" and british obliged for this many jat boys were sacrificed in eourope but there decendents became free for the future and they became a dominant "community" but that gave a massive blow to "banyas"(my comunity) so we set owt in different parts of India and did owr traditional job"trading" and within a couple of decades emarged as richest and most prospourus and one of the most educated& infuential "caste"..moral of the story instead of crying about past misfortunes and discrimination did to us or owr community/nation try to think & strive for a beter future while taking lessons from past mistakes and as they say "god helps those who help themselfs" and same was the case for the hindu refugees who came to northen india after 1947 they had nothing then but after there 65 years of struggle come and look at the punajabi comunity and its might in every spear of life ....positive approach is the key ..hope you get my point now sir

However the same can be said for PK too. What you think we have not made any progress, that we are sitting in caves and scratching our asses or that we sit in school dreaming how to blow people up. No, you also need to modify your ideas too. What I and many people have noted is that many Indians take offence as soon as someone says anything negative about India. Thus the claim that many Indians are deluded about their country. The reality is that it is a third-world country trying to tackle a milion and one problems. Just like us.
 
However the same can be said for PK too. What you think we have not made any progress, that we are sitting in caves and scratching our asses or that we sit in school dreaming how to blow people up. No, you also need to modify your ideas too. What I and many people have noted is that many Indians take offence as soon as someone says anything negative about India. Thus the claim that many Indians are deluded about their country. The reality is that it is a third-world country trying to tackle a milion and one problems. Just like us.
well care to tell me when did i said" you think we have not made any progress, that we are sitting in caves and scratching our asses or that we sit in school dreaming how to blow people up"

well all i said was that pakistanies love to live in a fantasy land of past glories and see people on basis of there relegeon/caste/colour /race or langauge rather than on his merit

i never said rivers of honey and milk are flowing here in india despite owr best efforts there are many areas like curruption, crime aginst women and cleanliness where we still are laging but at least we are trying owr best to shed that baggage..and one day we will suceed
 
1.On topic the Marathas are not Shudras. Mahadji Shinde was not a Shudra.He was the bastard son of Ranoji Scindia through a Rajput woman named Chima Bai.Ranoji was the founder of the Gwalior Maratha dynasty which survives till today.Currently Jyotiraditya Madhav Rao Scindia is considered the Maharaja of Gwalior & Ujjain.

2. The Marathas do not have cast division calling themselves Maratha Hindus only. There is a small strain of Brahmin Marathas who exclusively perform religious functions. The lowest class in the Maratha society are Maratha Mahars who used to be manufacturers of weapons, and also worked for disposal/cremation of dead bodies. The Mahars are an aggressive lot, and have their own Mahar Regt.

lol caste system is everywhere in India, with regional variations. If by Marathas you mean people from what is now called maharashtra, caste system is same as rest of India. Now a days the term Marathas is specifically used for the dominant caste group in Maharashtra, and they even among themselves have numerous subclans.
 
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Ah - what a lovely forum. The same dead horse being beaten to death...again.

India and Pakistan belong to the Indic Civilization - and the arc of this Indic civilization stretches all the way to Laos and Cambodia.

Whether we like each others' nations and political views or not - fact is that we should be proud of the Taxila university in present-day Pakistan and of the Taj Mahal in India in equal measure - not to forget the ruins of Angkor Wat.

But South Asians are so busy trying to prove who conquered whom at what point in our history that we tend to forget how we have screwed up our present. I haven't been to Pakistan - but look at some of the architectural and historical sights in India - you will see paan stains and "Rohan Loves Pooja Forever" in chalk and some guy peeing on some historical wall. I have a feeling that Pakistan is not much different.

We are two different nation states who are often at loggerheads. But to deny our historical linkages and shared culture is downright stupid.
 
aap ka khoon zyada garam hone se,humein pta hain ussey pakorhe kaise tlpna hain.

:) 


acha ab aaye aukaat pe,

why do u guys repeat stuff everytime a new fuddu shows up here claiming what some moron wrote in their history books.
Pakode wali sarkar aap ki moti baat hamari choty dimagh mein nahi ayi... 
well care to tell me when did i said" you think we have not made any progress, that we are sitting in caves and scratching our asses or that we sit in school dreaming how to blow people up"

well all i said was that pakistanies love to live in a fantasy land of past glories and see people on basis of there relegeon/caste/colour /race or langauge rather than on his merit

i never said rivers of honey and milk are flowing here in india despite owr best efforts there are many areas like curruption, crime aginst women and cleanliness where we still are laging but at least we are trying owr best to shed that baggage..and one day we will suceed

indians also love to live with fantasy. if you dont believe me then better u start watching your media channels .
 
Pakode wali sarkar aap ki moti baat hamari choty dimagh mein nahi ayi... 


indians also love to live with fantasy. if you dont believe me then better u start watching your media channels .
well media always sells its stuff on sensationalism and it applies to every media be it yours or owrs
point is indians are fed up of contant pinpricking by pakistan and pakistan onli has a neusence value for most indians..please dont mind and change your attitude ..."Muhib Ul Watni ka matlab hate india aur hate hindu nahi hai baklki apne mulk/masheehat aur uske kayde kanoon aur logo se pyar kerna hai..jitni taqat pakistani hindustan ko neecha dikhane me lagate hain utna khud ko uthane me lagaye to kahin ke kahin pahunche "
 
We often make a grave mistake while interpreting history for our own convenience. History is a subject not something to be proud of, delighted with falsified nationalistic superiority or remorseful about a defeat. And as quite usual in this forum, history of this subcontinent is not divided between Indians and Pakistanis.

Before using history for a amateurish pillow fight or mudslinging we must remember that Indus valley is part of “Indian” History as much as Mauryan empire is part of “Pakistani” history. For Pakistanis who conveniently read the history of the Mughals as a muslim invasion of Hindu Rajas and maharajas, this is nothing but over simplification. Pakistan and North India (to some extent Hyderabad and Goa) was a place of cultural amalgamation if not just a hosting ground for some gruelling battles. There was hardly any difference between a Hindu and a muslim peasant on the corps field. There was hardly any difference between the status of a Parsian and Rajput courtier in the Mughal durbar. So lets enjoy reading with patience and discuss history with peace making it a constructive platform for learners like me.

Happy Diwali to all and best regards.
 
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