A Path to peace

[Jungibaaz]

please read post number 70 to see what praise i have gotten Khan saab

God give me strength.

 

[Gufi]

I wish you had worked in a foreign land---. I wish that good Pakistanis who had the opportunity to work in a foreign land but stayed behind had taken the opportunity----then they would have felt my pain and understood it better.

i am a young doctor with family in UK and Saudi Arabia.. I can leave anytime i want to... I choose not to because i think i can make a little difference on a personal level... I was not born in Pakistan and have stayed in Pakistan for 3 years out of my 26....

God give me strength.

a apologize if i seem harsh but do not stereotype please. The reason i always tell people to come see things for themselves is because the fact at hand is people want to see change. They have tried. They are mostly moderates who understand things. What you see is what the media tells you.. Please come and talk to people here and you will understand that. You should not generalize things.. There are millions out there who are sacrificing to try and make this country better....

 

[Jungibaaz]

a apologize if i seem harsh but do not stereotype please. The reason i always tell people to come see things for themselves is because the fact at hand is people want to see change. They have tried. They are mostly moderates who understand things. What you see is what the media tells you.. Please come and talk to people here and you will understand that. You should not generalize things.. There are millions out there who are sacrificing to try and make this country better....

I get that, if there wasn't any sort of care in me, I wouldn't be here in this forum, nor would have written such a reply. There are many great Pakistanis, that's how I identify myself to Brits here, I've a few times represented Pakistanis in some places, details which I won't say. You make a difference in your own, way. People abroad do their part, just a simple google search will tell you the value of these coward expats and how they have kept Pakistan from sinking further. My views on this were never aimed at you, or whoever you feel like representing here. There general statements giving my take on why we're in so much trouble. With issues as great as these, the underlying issues are also monstrous in proportion.

 

[VCheng]

Very well written @Gufi excellent articulation. I see a bright future of PDF with guys like you! Kudos!

Actually, the views in the OP and the support that they seem to have would indicate a very dark and self-destructive future for the country, never mind PDF. Which is more important?

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This post from another thread is written in a lighter vein, but it hits home with some very frank truths that are also relevant to this thread:

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["ashok mourya, post: 6666128, member: 163516"]Critic: What is your opinion on Shia?
Islamist: They are heretics. They do not represent the true Islam.
Critic: What do you think of Wahabis ?
Islamist: False Muslims. Their actions and teachings do not represent true Islam
Critic: What do you think of Taliban?
Islamist: False Muslims. They do not represent Islam.
Critic: What do you think of the Muslim Brotherhood ?
Islamist: Also false Muslims. They do not represent Islam.
Critic: How about ISIS and its actions in Syria?
Islamist: They are not true Muslims either. Their actions go against Islam
Critic: What do you think of those suicide bombers who blow themselves up in the name of Islam ?
Islamist: They do not represent the teachings of Islam.
Critic: Why are most Islamic countries backward in regards to science and technology and progress ?
Islamist: Because Muslims do not understand Islam properly and do not follow its teachings. Also, they follow leaders and rulers and sheikhs who are false Muslims and do not apply Islam properly.
Critic: What of the problems of forced marriages, child marriages, lashing, whipping, beating, stoning,enforcing the veil, executions for apostasy and blasphemy prevalent in some Islamic communities ?
Islamist: Those actions are not from Islam, and those who do them are not true Muslims.
Critic: What do you say of the hadiths that advocate and support execution for apostasy and fighting non-believers ? and what about the numerous tafsirs and sources written by Muslim scholars (including those who established the major Islamic schools of jurisprudence) that confirm those, and clearly state that the earlier peaceful verses were abrogated later on by more violent ones?
Islamist: They are all false. They're not truly from Islam, and those scholars who wrote this have misunderstood what the real teachings of Islam
Critic: Well, how many Muslims are there ?
Muslim: Allahu Akbar!! Islam is the fastest growing and most widespread religion in the world. We are the Ummah of more than 1.7 billion followers. Allahu Akbar!![/QUOTE]

 

[Gufi]

Actually, the views in the OP and the support that they seem to have would indicate a very dark and self-destructive future for the country, never mind PDF. Which is more important?

anything that does not uproot Islam and finish it is dangerous to you... I would prefer it if you would stick to logic
your posts are baffling the whole issue of this post was to bring moderate religous people to the centre and teach the children moderate lifestyles
u did not answer my last post let me ask you some more things

• do you think there are different work places for different sects in Pakistan
• you think there are different neighborhoods
• do you believe there are different schools
• different hospitals

the point you will not understand is there are interactions between sects a million times a day which are peaceful yet you pick the one radical example and use it to justify everything....

 

[VCheng]

anything that does not uproot Islam and finish it is dangerous to you... I would prefer it if you would stick to logic
your posts are baffling the whole issue of this post was to bring moderate religous people to the centre and teach the children moderate lifestyles
u did not answer my last post let me ask you some more things

• do you think there are different work places for different sects in Pakistan
• you think there are different neighborhoods
• do you believe there are different schools
• different hospitals

the point you will not understand is there are interactions between sects a million times a day which are peaceful yet you pick the one radical example and use it to justify everything....

As I said before:

Religion as a set of personal beliefs is perfectly fine. Allowing it to run matters of state and controlling society is deadly, as we can see.

 

[Jungibaaz]

anything that does not uproot Islam and finish it is dangerous to you... I would prefer it if you would stick to logic
your posts are baffling the whole issue of this post was to bring moderate religous people to the centre and teach the children moderate lifestyles
u did not answer my last post let me ask you some more things

• do you think there are different work places for different sects in Pakistan
• you think there are different neighborhoods
• do you believe there are different schools
• different hospitals

the point you will not understand is there are interactions between sects a million times a day which are peaceful yet you pick the one radical example and use it to justify everything....

Religion in my opinion should define a country about as much as any other ideology, if tomorrow Pakistan started calling itself a socialist republic, even if you leaned to the left, do you really think being a socialist republic by whatever definition of the word is a good idea?

A big debate needs to be had do decide who we are. On a positive note, for the first time on social media, people with profiles openly calling themselves secularists and atheist/agnostics.

 

[VCheng]

Religion in my opinion should define a country about as much as any other ideology, if tomorrow Pakistan started calling itself a socialist republic, even if you leaned to the left, do you really think being a socialist republic by whatever definition of the word is a good idea?

A big debate needs to be had do decide who we are. On a positive note, for the first time on social media, people with profiles openly calling themselves secularists and atheist/agnostics.

Religion must remain a private and personal matter, separate from national policies. Totally.

 

[Developereo]

Solution in my view is

Your solutions, like those of other members, are valid but my fundamental point remains that these solutions can not be implemented without a sense of national unity.

Any reform -- whether it's in the police, political parties, religious institutions -- will fail because the targets of that reform will claim that they are being singled out and the government is working for "the other guys".

The government -- federal and local -- has no sense of universal legitimacy. It is seen as a (temporary) win for one side or another. When PML-N gets in, everybody knows that Punjab (and Punjabis) will prosper and the rest of the country will have to wait. When PPP comes in, it signals favoritism for Sindh and Sindhis. When PTI comes in, it is seen as a front for the military or the Taliban sympathisers.

The core problem is that people have no faith in the government being impartial and fair, and part of the reason is that we don't have strong independent institutions of accountability. Normally, the judicial branch and courts are seen as independent but, in Pakistan, even the courts are accused of favoritism.

Is it because Pakistan lacks the right kinda leadership???
Somehow Pakistan has done well under military leaderships because they were able to unite Pakistan as one,they were more discplined (compared to the grass variety politicians) and less corrupt. Or am I wrong?
Just curious!

You are right that, of all the national institutions in Pakistan, the military enjoys the most support and respect. I say this as a person with no military background or connection, in friends or relatives. There is the (justified) belief that military brass have their own level of corruption and the military enjoys special perks -- when the most expensive housing neighborhood is called 'Defence Housing Society', that says something. However, the rank and file military people are respected and, relatively speaking, the military is the least corrupt and most patriotic institution in Pakistan.

The task of building natinal unity falls to the government, media and society at large.

The civilian political landscape, as I wrote in another post, is completely fractured along ethnic lines. Some of us feel that Imran Khan and PTI break that mold and enjoy support across religious and ethnic lines, but that's my personal opinion.

The media has utterly failed Pakistan. In the 70s and 80s, Pakistan Television (PTV) was very active in promoting a sense of national unity. There were programs shown across the country which showcased the culture of various parts of Pakistan, so people in Karachi could see Peshawari culture, and people in Quetta could see Lahori culture, and vice versa. However, after Musharraf's liberalization, the media has degenerated into a race for sensationalism and money and the content has similarly gone downhill.

As for society, there are many patriotic Pakistanis who strive to form a national psyche, but their efforts are drowned out by the divisive rhetoric. Worse, that divisive rhetoric comes from all sides of the political spectrum.

Religion in my opinion should define a country about as much as any other ideology, if tomorrow Pakistan started calling itself a socialist republic, even if you leaned to the left, do you really think being a socialist republic by whatever definition of the word is a good idea?

A big debate needs to be had do decide who we are. On a positive note, for the first time on social media, people with profiles openly calling themselves secularists and atheist/agnostics.

I believe the focus on religion is misplaced and will backfire. The reforms we need revolve around forming a sense of national identity and strong governance. If these issues are seen as a replacement for Islam or, worse, as a Western front for attacking Islam, the backlash will only help the religious extremists.

The fact that mullahs are running rampant is a failure of governance. If the mullahs are brought under control without fixing governance, the ethnic mafias will take over. This is not hypothetical; Karachi is ruined, not by mullahs, but by the ethnic mafias.

We must make it absolutely clear that Pakistan;s salvation is not at the expense of Islam.

 

[VCheng]

It is not that the focus on religion will backfire. It already has backfired!

 

[Gufi]

• The system of the country has backfired.
• There is no impartial judicial system
• there is no policing system,
• there is no policy either foreign or internal.

Yet we have this urge to blame religion and if you ask for logic we are pointed to the Mullah system. Explain to me while cursing the many evils of the madrassahs

• how many students have they helped
• how many orphans have they provided shelter to
• how many have they fed

It is very easy to criticize the evils but no one can list the goods
IF you want to list the evils in this country

• none of the gang war in Karachi was caused by religion,
• the breaking of Pakistan into two was not caused by religion,
• the lack of dams was not caused by religion
• the lack of land reforms was not caused by religion
• the lack of power generation was not caused by religion

I could go on and on but some here just want to blame Islam for everything wrong with the system and there is nothing one can do about it... 3 posts were full of questions none of which were answered other then say Islam is at fault

 

[VCheng]

Islam is not at fault. Pakistan is at fault for mixing Islam with matters of state. Please understand the difference.

 

[Gufi]

Islam is not at fault. Pakistan is at fault for mixing Islam with matters of state. Please understand the difference.

None of the laws are applied. The days the laws are applied then we can see what is or what is not working. By that definition the laws that stop murder have failed because people kill. The law is only as strong as those who enforce it. every logic of yours is flawed

 

[RescueRanger]

Religion must remain a private and personal matter, separate from national policies. Totally.

At least we can agree on one thing, that is good enough for me.

 

[Gufi]

At least we can agree on one thing, that is good enough for me.