A Normal Nuclear Pakistan

[araz]

An excellent summary of the situation, Sir, and it was useful for us all to read it, surely. Thank you for putting it up. It explains the matter in very reasonable terms. In terms of strategy, I have to point out that there is an extremely hazardous alternative left, which will be far worse for both countries even than a limited-scope war, of the sort conjured up as a justification for proliferating tactical nuclear missiles, let alone a full-scale war a outrance, which was obviously not to be ruled out in any of the cases cited, considering the flagrant provocations, and their impact on Indian intent.

However, I must also share with you my utter revulsion at this sentence:

And then the 2008 Mumbai terror attacks with its alleged base in Pakistan; an arrogant, economically rejuvenated, imperious India could only reverberate in frustration, having to eschew what its impulse dictated despite the clamour to punish Pakistan. It is true that nuclear deterrence imposes its own rationality forever changing the nature of conflict, if not entirely eliminating conflict.

Source: A Normal Nuclear Pakistan | Page 3

I found it in appalling bad taste. It left me dumbfounded, that an apparently sensible, balanced individual should write this.

That sentence alone leaves me bereft of any conciliatory spirit, and pondering very seriously the hazardous alternative that is open to a justly indignant nation. It is sad to think that without the grossly provocative sentence in question, I would have found myself in perfect understanding with the strategic explanation offered.

OH come on!! Please act your age!! When have you not seen a writer taking a slightly biased perspective to his own narrative. Or is it because you have nothing that can better the argument and therefore you are acting like a cry baby and resorting to a behaviour which is ------ PUTTING IT MILDLY, of a child throwing his toys around. Get above the sentence and start your own narrative and then we can talk. You are allowed to take your own artistic licence and we will get above it and debate.
A

 

[vsdoc]

That is because you are on one side of the issues, and then there is this other side with its own narrative.

The other side IS the problem. But its own problem. Not ours.

And so has the power to bring about the solution. For its own self.

No need for nukes.

Just a behavior modification regime.

 

[VCheng]

The other side IS the problem.

And has the power to bring about the solution.

No need for nukes.

Just a behavior modification regime.

So what do we do when both sides say what you have said above about each other?

 

[vsdoc]

So what do we do when both sides say what you have said above about each other?

Well, its not my narrative. But the article of the hawk in question being debated here.

His own crowing at Pakistani untouchability because of its nukes.

In Kargil. Which Pakistan did.

After the Parliament attack. Which Pakistan did.

After 26/11. Which again Pakistan did.

So you finger. Then invoke the nukes when someone comes to break your finger (and probably the arm its attached to).

Why not simply stop fingering?

Behavior modification.

 

[VCheng]

Well, its not my narrative. But the article of the hawk in question being debated here.

His own crowing at Pakistani untouchability because of its nukes.

In Kargil. Which Pakistan did.

After the Parliament attack. Which Pakistan did.

After 26/11. Which again Pakistan did.

So you finger. Then invoke the nukes when someone comes to break your finger (and probably the arm its attached to).

Why not simply stop fingering?

Behavior modification.

What you call "fingering" may simply be a policy that is perceived to further national goals. And whatever response India may formulate must take into account the nuclear umbrella, which does indeed offer Pakistan deterrence.

 

[araz]

That is because you are on one side of the issues, and then there is this other side with its own narrative.

No ! he is struggling to present an alternative narrative that sounds even remotely reasonable.
The fact remains that India and Pakistan need to get above their petty differences and resolve their differences and move on. India cannot afford to delay this any longer. All issues including Kashmir need a REALISTIC and tangible solution which is mutually agreeable. Unless we do this one more stupid event in the region could spark off the biggest fireworks in the region which i will be able to see from my house in UK. I have no vested interest in the matter as I have relatives on both side of the divide and it would be sad to see unnecessary loss of life on either side when we can with a bit of imaginative and forward thinking resolve all outstanding issues and move on.

 

[VCheng]

No ! he is struggling to present an alternative narrative that sounds even remotely reasonable.
The fact remains that India and Pakistan need to get above their petty differences and resolve their differences and move on. India cannot afford to delay this any longer. All issues including Kashmir need a REALISTIC and tangible solution which is mutually agreeable. Unless we do this one more stupid event in the region could spark off the biggest fireworks in the region which i will be able to see from my house in UK. I have no vested interest in the matter as I have relatives on both side of the divide and it would be sad to see unnecessary loss of life on either side when we can with a bit of imaginative and forward thinking resolve all outstanding issues and move on.

With all due respect, Sir, what I said to him is equally applicable to you: "That is because you are on one side of the issues, and then there is this other side with its own narrative."

 

[vsdoc]

What you call "fingering" may simply be a policy that is perceived to further national goals. And whatever response India may formulate must take into account the nuclear umbrella, which does indeed offer Pakistan deterrence.

So then keep the nukes.

And get fingered in return.

Which is what's the new normal.

No ! he is struggling to present an alternative narrative that sounds even remotely reasonable.
The fact remains that India and Pakistan need to get above their petty differences and resolve their differences and move on. India cannot afford to delay this any longer. All issues including Kashmir need a REALISTIC and tangible solution which is mutually agreeable. Unless we do this one more stupid event in the region could spark off the biggest fireworks in the region which i will be able to see from my house in UK. I have no vested interest in the matter as I have relatives on both side of the divide and it would be sad to see unnecessary loss of life on either side when we can with a bit of imaginative and forward thinking resolve all outstanding issues and move on.

Nuclear Blackmail 101.

How droll.

 

[VCheng]

So then keep the nukes.

And get fingered in return.

Which is what's the new normal.



Nuclear Blackmail 101.

How droll.

That is nothing new, Sir, but established policy on both sides for decades already.

 

[vsdoc]

That is nothing new, Sir, but established policy on both sides for decades already.

Then buddy both sides have to decide if they are ok with the status quo and the cost involved.

Who's been clamoring for a solution?

Who's been saying there's no problem?

 

[VCheng]

Then buddy both sides have to decide if they are ok with the status quo and the cost involved.

Who's been clamoring for a solution?

Who's been saying there's no problem?

Of course. Both sides are already putting up with the costs of the status quo. This will likely go on until one or both sides decide for themselves if the costs have become unaffordable. Then we will see progress towards some sort of a solution.

 

[vsdoc]

Of course. Both sides are already putting up with the costs of the status quo. This will likely go on until one or both sides decide for themselves if the costs have become unaffordable. Then we will see progress towards some sort of a solution.

To be honest V, this is a very old fight.

Its not going to be solved by solving Kashmir.

Pakistan comes first in line.

That is what the fight is about.

 

[araz]

Well, its not my narrative. But the article of the hawk in question being debated here.

His own crowing at Pakistani untouchability because of its nukes.

In Kargil. Which Pakistan did.

After the Parliament attack. Which Pakistan did.

After 26/11. Which again Pakistan did.

So you finger. Then invoke the nukes when someone comes to break your finger (and probably the arm its attached to).

Why not simply stop fingering?

Behavior modification.

The problem is it is a tit for tat situation. At this point I will go along with your narrative without any questions( just so you can see what i am getting at) and say,
Kargil in response to Siachin,
Parlianment in response to incursion and support of TTP via Afghan proxies.
26/11 in response to Baluchistan.
Do you guys not see the futility of this argument. Both parties have been guilty OF FINGERING EACH OTHER. At some stage WE have to start saying enough is enough and get together to resolve our differences. All the world that you can think of has done it why cant India and Pakistan? Even Russia and USA talk to each other--- dont they? China has bought a trillion dollars of US bonds. However, for talks to be successful we need to be honest and accept the problems and honestly try and resolve them. Till we do , it will be one finger in response to another in response to another ad nauseum. Do ytou not see the futility of this line of thinking.
A

 

[vsdoc]

The problem is it is a tit for tat situation. At this point I will go along with your narrative without any questions( just so you can see what i am getting at) and say,
Kargil in response to Siachin,
Parlianment in response to incursion and support of TTP via Afghan proxies.
26/11 in response to Baluchistan.
Do you guys not see the futility of this argument. Both parties have been guilty OF FINGERING EACH OTHER. At some stage WE have to start saying enough is enough and get together to resolve our differences. All the world that you can think of has done it why cant India and Pakistan? Even Russia and USA talk to each other--- dont they? China has bought a trillion dollars of US bonds. However, for talks to be successful we need to be honest and accept the problems and honestly try and resolve them. Till we do , it will be one finger in response to another in response to another ad nauseum. Do ytou not see the futility of this line of thinking.
A

Sir with all due respect, from the Indian standpoint there are no "differences."

You hold a part of Kashmir which is ours. We are willing to let it go.

You ceded a part of our Kashmir to the Chinese. We are willing to let it go.

Make the LOC the IB and move on.

But are you willing to let it go?

Let me go one step further sir.

The fingering will not stop as long as you can finger.

Because its not about Kashmir.

You were given the kiss of life by the British.

Now you feel you've shored up your defenses for the next final and divinely ordained push.

Many of us equally feel you are squatting on our land. And we want it back. We'll take you with it as well. Seeing as you were always there as us.

Do you see what we are dealing with here?

 

[VCheng]

At some stage WE have to start saying enough is enough and get together to resolve our differences.

That stage will come not simply from anybody's epiphany, but when the costs of such policies exceed the ability to afford them.