A new economic system for the near-future

[PeaceGen]

Good point.

From my understanding of capitalist economics, a product or service is priced for its raw material usage, for the manual labor it takes to be made and for the profit margin that the company or group put in to get back something extra for the effort they put in to create the product or service.

In socialist application we can make item design open source, employ neighborhood-level 3D Printers to turn the design into product and price the product reasonably to fit well within a month's credits.

you can't make high-end products using 3D printers, bro.. the cost of delivering materials would prohibit that. sorry.

there are also issues with getting a return of investment for the design of high end goods, which would involve thousands upon thousands of manhours of work by highly educated individuals..

 

[BHAN85]

Hello, the below idea has been brewing in my head for some time and it came up during recent discussions with @Naofumi and @Soumitra in different threads. I present a new economic system that is needed especially in countries like India and Pakistan where old regressive social mores meet modern capitalist ideas to produce a toxic socio-economic culture where especially lot of the middle class does not look at the socio-economic disparities and injustices that happen because of an uneven money system.

My system is not entirely money-less but more an evolution and is as thus :

All basic needs ( housing, water, basic food, essential clothes, electricity, healthcare, communication, mass-public transport, legal service which will be rare anyway in such a system, etc ) being for free and the remaining things ( non-basic food, clothing accessories, hair styling, gym membership, transportation by taxi, the visit to the restaurant or tea-house, permission for house party, etc ) being a paid-for thing via an evolved money system like the "Social Credits" system being implemented in China.

Let's assume that the Social Credits for each person will be 20 at the start of every month. He will be able to obtain a few services with these Credits. He will need to do his designated regular job and any possible extra community service to increase the credits by say 5. Not doing certain things will decrease his Credits. Doing an anti-social thing will get him punished by jail or non-Credit community service depending on the severity. Importantly, the gained Credits do not add to the next month's Credits and make the person a "richer" man. They start fresh from 20.

This way there is no economic disparity, all get the basic necessities without suffering and anybody say with a penchant for stylish clothing and personal grooming will have to contribute harder to the community.

The system can be applied in three ways :

1. There already are economic unions such as the EU, ALBA and CIS. My proposal is just an advancement on these.

2. An individual country can adopt it while at the same time work with the accepted international trading currency, the American Dollar, because the country's means of production will have been nationalized and the goods and services will be exported by the system and not by individual private businesses.

3. The proposal can be later presented at international offline forums such as the UNO. There is no rational reason why a country cannot adopt it. Please see my signature below my post.

This is a work in progress. I plan to speak of this to various progressive movements in India at the right time.

---

@RealNapster @Joe Shearer @ps3linux @Indos @Moonlight @Iltutmish @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan others.

My opinion is, the solution for some less economic developed zones is the Cuban solution, i.e: two currencies, one national currency to buy/sell national products, and other currency for importation products of other countries.

For international products

Cuban convertible peso - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

For Cuban products

Cuban peso - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And nowadays, with cheap electronic devices, anyone can make their own payment system (I'm NOT talking about cryptocurrencies, just a database, and a smartcard reader connected to a android style device).

 

[BHAN85]

A server database and a android devices nowadays it's ridiculous cheap.

I think a alternative economic system must be build from small communities to big.

I.e. you dont need even internet to interconnect payment systems, you can build your payment system network using a cheap town size wifi network.

This way you can do more easy the interchange of product/services of a small community.

You can publish all the source code of the system to let another communities in other zones (or another countries) repeat the experience.

You can use smartcards as payment system, or even a more cheap thing, use cards with EAN13 codebars printed (some supermarkets use that as way of payment), any tablet/cellphone can read ean13 codebars using the camera.

Once you have a electronic payment systems that it controls what and who buy anything, you can implement any idea about social bonus, e.g: "Buy with discount the first kg or wheat flour by month by person".

 

[jamahir]

My opinion is, the solution for some less economic developed zones is the Cuban solution, i.e: two currencies, one national currency to buy/sell national products, and other currency for importation products of other countries.

For international products

Cuban convertible peso - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

For Cuban products

Cuban peso - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I will read about the two currencies tomorrow but in general I think the Cuba peso is similar to the "Social Credits" thing I proposed.

And nowadays, with cheap electronic devices, anyone can make their own payment system (I'm NOT talking about cryptocurrencies, just a database, and a smartcard reader connected to a android style device).

1. I never understood how cryptocurrencies are different than say the US dollar. I feel the cryptocurrencies are allowed to be used by the Western governments because they are no threat to capitalist economics.

2. About electronic payment systems, I agree with you. My idea is like this : Every citizen has a computer device ( whatever will replace the cell phone ) and it is automatically topped up with 20 currency units ( like 20 dollars ), or whatever is an appropriate amount, at the beginning of the month. Whenever there has to be a monetary payment the payer sends the required amount to the payee wirelessly via short-distance radio frequency or some optical method. The amount in the sender machine is deducted and the amount in the receiver machine is added, all this without a bank in the middle. An anonymous payment method, just like cash.

 

[BHAN85]

I will read about the two currencies tomorrow but in general I think the Cuba peso is similar to the "Social Credits" thing I proposed.



1. I never understood how cryptocurrencies are different than say the US dollar. I feel the cryptocurrencies are allowed to be used by the Western governments because they are no threat to capitalist economics.

2. About electronic payment systems, I agree with you. My idea is like this : Every citizen has a computer device ( whatever will replace the cell phone ) and it is automatically topped up with 20 currency units ( like 20 dollars ), or whatever is an appropriate amount, at the beginning of the month. Whenever there has to be a monetary payment the payer sends the required amount to the payee wirelessly via short-distance radio frequency or some optical method. The amount in the sender machine is deducted and the amount in the receiver machine is added, all this without a bank in the middle. An anonymous payment method, just like cash.

I think is more cheap that is every citizen has a card with a EAN13 code printed.

The difference between 1$ cost per user o 100$ cost per user can make the difference between a viable or non-viable system

I think most sellers can have a android device, and have public ATM to make electronic transactions between users.

As very cheap server for small community (1k to 20k users) can be used any computer or embedded device with MySQL in linux (all free open source software).

I think is easiest if the system is not anonymous, even more, if the account transactions of everybody are public,then.. people will trust in the system easily, because it make harder the scams.

 

[BHAN85]

I think a alternative economic system for informal economy must be seen from a Security point of view, and not from a economic point of view.

Economy for rich people work well in almost all countries, they dont need another system, so another economic system must be seen from a security point of view: avoid robberies, dangerous gangs, drugs and all the problems caused by porverty and unemployment (specially in young people).

States should let a self-organised informal economy with their own currency in order to make this more easy.

 

[jamahir]

I was wondering what do you think could be done to replace/as an alternative to pensions. I feel as though they are no longer as good as they were and their future looks bleak if the worker to retiree ratio keeps decreasing.

There need not be anything called pensions in this system. The basic necessities are free for all and additionally every citizen ( whatever his age ) is given monthly a purse / wallet of 20 Social Credits ( 20 or whichever is sensible ) for goods and services that require monetary transaction ( because their production requires more effort ).

An aged person can contribute with physical or mental labor as his condition allows.

Thus the aged person is taken care of by the system.

 

[jamahir]

I think is easiest if the system is not anonymous, even more, if the account transactions of everybody are public,then.. people will trust in the system easily, because it make harder the scams.

What do you mean ? Example please.

I think a alternative economic system for informal economy

What do you mean by "informal economy" ?

Economy for rich people work well in almost all countries, they dont need another system, so another economic system must be seen from a security point of view: avoid robberies, dangerous gangs, drugs and all the problems caused by porverty and unemployment (specially in young people).

Well, when people's reasonable material needs are satiated and the system does not allow for a few people getting economically richer than others there would be generally no scope for economic crimes to happen.

Of course, citizens will be expected to contribute to society mentally or physically as per their condition.

About gangs, they should not be tolerated even one percent.

 

[BHAN85]

What do you mean ? Example please.



What do you mean by "informal economy" ?



Well, when people's reasonable material needs are satiated and the system does not allow for a few people getting economically richer than others there would be generally no scope for economic crimes to happen.

Of course, citizens will be expected to contribute to society mentally or physically as per their condition.

About gangs, they should be tolerated even one percent.

Informal economy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A example of informal economy if street food.

By the other side, imagine you make your own electronic currency (not a cripto-currency, just a database, network transactions and a payment mehtod like a debit card), people wont trust in that system, but if all transactions, all money and transactions in every citizen account can be seen for all the rest the citizens, it's more likely that they will trust in that system. It's a system to make easier the interchange of informal economy, it's not a real alternative to common economic system.

I dont have leftists ideas, it's ok if there are rich people .
The bad thing is when there is poor hungry people that could work but they dont have the means for it.

 

[jamahir]

can’t understand
wht about small businesses in ur system

At the moment I have this idea, which is still developing :

1. The base thing is that every "business" will be owned by the system ( a commons ) but operated by a person or group. This "business" can be say an eatery or a tea room or a flower shop.

2. If a person or a group have an idea for a "business" they can approach the system's bank for a loan to acquire material resources ( machines, main office space, outlets ) and to pay for any initial human resources ( employees ). The loan will be interest-free and payable over months or years.

3. Remember that the basic necessities of a citizen are free and the system automatically tops up a citizen's Social Credits to 20 ( or another appropriate number ) every month. If a person doesn't contribute to society by not being employed as appropriate to his field of interest his Social Credits will reduce by some appropriate margin. But he will not starve, become homeless, become unable to use the public transport or become disconnected from the internet because those are basic human rights provided to every citizen free of cost. So an unemployed citizen will still be able to reach out to an employer or reach out to the bank if he has an idea for a certain "business".

4. If a person is a sculptor and has an idea about some art form he can approach the same bank for loan for purchasing the raw material and any assistants. Same could be the case for a film production.

 

[ali_raza]

At the moment I have this idea, which is still developing :

1. The base thing is that every "business" will be owned by the system ( a commons ) but operated by a person or group. This "business" can be say an eatery or a tea room or a flower shop.

2. If a person or a group have an idea for a "business" they can approach the system's bank for a loan to acquire material resources ( machines, main office space, outlets ) and to pay for any initial human resources ( employees ). The loan will be interest-free and payable over months or years.

3. Remember that the basic necessities of a citizen are free and the system automatically tops up a citizen's Social Credits to 20 ( or another appropriate number ) every month. If a person doesn't contribute to society by not being employed as appropriate to his field of interest his Social Credits will reduce by some appropriate margin. But he will not starve, become homeless, become unable to use the public transport or become disconnected from the internet because those are basic human rights provided to every citizen free of cost. So an unemployed citizen will still be able to reach out to an employer or reach out to the bank if he has an idea for a certain "business".

4. If a person is a sculptor and has an idea about some art form he can approach the same bank for loan for purchasing the raw material and any assistants. Same could be the case for a film production.

i cant understand this at all
its not practical
i m a jeweler
we deal in expensive items
so should there be no luxury business
only essentials?
why would i do business if i have no incentive to work hard and make something for myself or my family
and wht makes me different then someone who isn’t as sharp as me
or the ones who r brighter then me
i think one has to be rewarded as his abilities
even nature has given classes
a lion is another class then a donkey
i mean would any comisnist trad his tiger for my dog?

 

[jamahir]

i cant understand this at all
its not practical
i m a jeweler
we deal in expensive items
so should there be no luxury business
only essentials?
why would i do business if i have no incentive to work hard and make something for myself or my family
and wht makes me different then someone who isn’t as sharp as me
or the ones who r brighter then me
i think one has to be rewarded as his abilities
even nature has given classes
a lion is another class then a donkey
i mean would any comisnist trad his tiger for my dog?

If you read the OP I have divided any products or services into basic and non-basic.

Basic items are the fundamental items that should be the right of any human, like housing, water, electricity, medical service, internet, public transport, essential food etc.

Among non-basic can be things like cuff-links, chocolate cake and your jewelry. Certain of these things can be produced without too much difficulty using the getting popular method of 3D Printing and those things that require more physical labor and difficulty in obtaining the raw material, will also have a Return on Investment by the producer. How ? If such things cannot be purchased within the 20 ( or appropriate other ) Social Credits given to a person every month then the person can approach the bank for the non-interest loan, then purchase the item and keep repaying the loan from the 20 Social Credits every month.

The intention of the economic system is that no person is left without access to basic amenities and no person gets richer compared to another person. All will have chance to obtain any kind of services and material goods they desire and this does not mean that the producer or giver of the product or service does not get rewarded.

 

[ali_raza]

If you read the OP I have divided any products or services into basic and non-basic.

Basic items are the fundamental items that should be the right of any human, like housing, water, electricity, medical service, internet, public transport, essential food etc.

Among non-basic can be things like cuff-links, chocolate cake and your jewelry. Certain of these things can be produced without too much difficulty using the getting popular method of 3D Printing and those things that require more physical labor and difficulty in obtaining the raw material, will also have a Return on Investment by the producer. How ? If such things cannot be purchased within the 20 ( or appropriate other ) Social Credits given to a person every month then the person can approach the bank for the non-interest loan, then purchase the item and keep repaying the loan from the 20 Social Credits every month.

The intention of the economic system is that no person is left without access to basic amenities and no person gets richer compared to another person. All will have chance to obtain any kind of services and material goods they desire and this does not mean that the producer or giver of the product or service does not get rewarded.

then they will be getting poorer and poorer
i for example have a art
i can make jewelry
which people want to keep buying
then where is it different then capital society
ok basic amenities i agree
but thats called islamis welfare system
zakat was designed for that thing specifically
communism stops innovation period

 

[jamahir]

then they will be getting poorer and poorer

How ?

i for example have a art
i can make jewelry
which people want to keep buying
then where is it different then capital society

I will give an example. If you as a jeweler are selling a ruby-studded cuff-links for 49 Social Credits ( I think I have to think of another name, maybe Rupee ), this does not fit in the per month cycle of 20 Social Credits given to every person, so he will go for a loan for 49 SCs and purchase your ruby-studded cuff-links. This amount is additional to the SCs he already had before obtaining the loan so it will not leave him without SCs for that month. The next month onward the bank will keep cutting for some months a reasonable EMI from the loan taker's per month SC. And the overall system is such that the loan taker will not go "bankrupt" because (a) He will keep getting basic goods and services, (b). His EMI will be a reasonable cut from every month's SC.

Side point : The bank has no other reason to exist than give someone a simple loan for various reasons. The bank does not exist to make profit for itself because after all the Social Credits ( money ) is an artificial construct.

ok basic amenities i agree
but thats called islamis welfare system
zakat was designed for that thing specifically

I agree that the Islamic socio-economic system was superior and progressive when it came about and still is if compared to the minimal or non-existent socio-economic structure of other religions currently.

But again an example as to why it should be modernized. In India currently there are 30+ million court cases pending and out of that many are land / estate disputes. From these some of the case filers will be Muslims who will have not been satisfied by the judgement of the qazi who of course will judge from the Islamic laws of inheritance where land / estate is privately owned. Now think if India was a communist society where land was not privately owned but managed by some land committee on behalf of the society. Basically land being a commons. No land dispute would have existed in the first place.

communism stops innovation period

How ? Let us take space technology and science for example. The communist USSR was a space power and was the first country to build modular space stations which was then adopted as the method for construction of the International Space Station. The USSR also had plans to land a manned mission on Mars by the mid 1980s.

 

[ali_raza]

How ?



I will give an example. If you as a jeweler are selling a ruby-studded cuff-links for 49 Social Credits ( I think I have to think of another name, maybe Rupee ), this does not fit in the per month cycle of 20 Social Credits given to every person, so he will go for a loan for 49 SCs and purchase your ruby-studded cuff-links. This amount is additional to the SCs he already had before obtaining the loan so it will not leave him without SCs for that month. The next month onward the bank will keep cutting for some months a reasonable EMI from the loan taker's per month SC. And the overall system is such that the loan taker will not go "bankrupt" because (a) He will keep getting basic goods and services, (b). His EMI will be a reasonable cut from every month's SC.

Side point : The bank has no other reason to exist than give someone a simple loan for various reasons. The bank does not exist to make profit for itself because after all the Social Credits ( money ) is an artificial construct.



I agree that the Islamic socio-economic system was superior and progressive when it came about and still is if compared to the minimal or non-existent socio-economic structure of other religions currently.

But again an example as to why it should be modernized. In India currently there are 30+ million court cases pending and out of that many are land / estate disputes. From these some of the case filers will be Muslims who will have not been satisfied by the judgement of the qazi who of course will judge from the Islamic laws of inheritance where land / estate is privately owned. Now think if India was a communist society where land was not privately owned but managed by some land committee on behalf of the society. Basically land being a commons. No land dispute would have existed in the first place.



How ? Let us take space technology and science for example. The communist USSR was a space power and was the first country to build modular space stations which was then adopted as the method for construction of the International Space Station. The USSR also had plans to land a manned mission on Mars by the mid 1980s.

take for example a simple coke
soviets had to buy from america
when chernobyl happened
superiority of soviets was wide open to the world
it was all authoritarian regime
they even had to import lada from italy which was cancelled there
in the meantime japan was making 100,s different models every year
this system is against human behavior
its very good but we humans r very complicated species
we sometimes buy shitty things just because we want to