A Muslim majority Indus Valley Civilization?

[INDIC]

Yes, including Palestine, Tunisia the whole of North Africa, most of Anatolia and Western Europe because they [Spain/Portugal were Iberia] France [was Gaul] etc were Roman colonies and subject to Roman Rule so they can take pride of being ruled by a external people, thier rulers were modern day Italians.

All of France [ Gaul ] was a Roman colony for 100s of years but I don't think India fell under IVC rule. Only the a tiny fraction of modern India right next to Pakistan border had IVC overspill similiar to overspill into Iran, Afghanistan etc.

But almost West Europeans take pride in Roman Empire.
Nobody knows the type of government of IVC, IVC is just the common cultural group existing during those period. But I already told you that many ancient practices of IVC is similar to present day Indians. Even yoga meditation has origin in IVC

Fine, if you insist in sticking your snout into our backside go ahead, on second thoughts you can only take wiff of the smell ...... like it?

You guy's must be busting yourself that Mohenjo Daro is in Pakistan. I don't know which part of India you are from but I bet if you got a chance you would benmd geography that Mohenjo rolls over into your India. This is bizzare !!!

Now I am off, adios.

Personal insult won't work.

Ok, I believe people from my land traded with people of Mesopotamia from Lothal port of Gujarat and Pakistanis should not claim they had trade relations with Mesopotamia.

 

[pk_baloch]

self-deleted

 

[pk_baloch]

..we should give IVC back to THE indians ...no matter if they donot give us taj mahal back we will make our own taj mahal which will be made by baloch

 

[reformistani]

Hello little brothers. salaam. I am the person that wrote the Indus article. I am disturbed but not surprised by Indian's hegemony over our history. I am proud of you for responding with much finesse.

In their comments they demonstrate amazing contradictions. first they say:

You are not a central asian nor arab nor persian nor pushtun nor baloch.... you are an "Indian" Hindu converted at the tip of a sword.

When we Pakistanis say we are prouds sons of the soil, descendants of IVC, they say we all of a sudden become persians and arabs, uzbeks and afghan, invaders and marauders.. that it is they from bihar to assam to tamil nadu who are the true inheritors of indus.

you see this hypocrisy? they won't leave an opportunity to ATTEMPT strip us of our rich heritage. What these fools won't understand is that we are cross-civilizational nation. central asian, south asian, west asia, greater middle east.

India exists for thousands of years but Pakistan is 60 years old. as if 60 million people were born on august 14, 1947.

Understand this assault and fight it without mercy with your pen. It is more dangerous than a thousand Arjun tanks.

 

[rockstarIN]

Hello little brothers. salaam. I am the person that wrote the Indus article. I am disturbed but not surprised by Indian's hegemony over our history. I am proud of you for responding with much finesse.

In their comments they demonstrate amazing contradictions. first they say:

You are not a central asian nor arab nor persian nor pushtun nor baloch.... you are an "Indian" Hindu converted at the tip of a sword.

When we Pakistanis say we are prouds sons of the soil, descendants of IVC, they say we all of a sudden become persians and arabs, uzbeks and afghan, invaders and marauders.. that it is they from bihar to assam to tamil nadu who are the true inheritors of indus.

you see this hypocrisy? they won't leave an opportunity to ATTEMPT strip us of our rich heritage. What these fools won't understand is that we are cross-civilizational nation. central asian, south asian, west asia, greater middle east.

India exists for thousands of years but Pakistan is 60 years old. as if 60 million people were born on august 14, 1947.

Understand this assault and fight it without mercy with your pen. It is more dangerous than a thousand Arjun tanks.

You must have done selected reading then to conclude the 'idea' of Indians.

YOU wrote 'they are saying we are arab, turk persians' and in the same para, you admit it.

What these fools won't understand is that we are cross-civilizational nation. central asian, south asian, west asia, greater middle east.

Now you tell me who is hypocrite?

Everything else I agree with you. It is cross civilization, shared history etc.etc

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Indus Valley Civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Lord Shiva is a HINDU GOD........I guess.....

You guess and so did your historians who are too good in distorting the facts with their speculations and assumptions . We don't blame you as we know Hinduism is all about superstitions and speculations. You may find shiva in everything even if you look at shape of cloud on sky , sometimes it might appear and will look like shiva. The problems with seals, images, and inscriptions is that you may interpret them the way you wish . No temple has been discovered yet

here is some information for you to read from britannica Encyclopedia.

RELIGION IN THE INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION

The Harappa culture, located in what is now Pakistan, has produced much evidence of what may have been a cult of a goddess and a bull. Figurines of both occur, female figures being more common, while the bull appears more frequently on the many steatite seals. A horned figure, possibly with three faces, occurs on a few seals, and on one seal he is surrounded by animals. A few male figurines, one apparently in a dancing posture, may represent deities. No building has been discovered at any Harappan site that can be positively identified as a temple, but the Great Bath at Mohenjo-daro may have been used for ritual purposes, as were the ghats (bathing steps on riverbanks) attached to later Hindu temples. The presence of bathrooms in most of the houses and the remarkable system of covered drains indicate a strong concern for cleanliness that may have been related to concepts of ritual purity but perhaps merely to ideas of hygiene.

Many seals show what may be religious and legendary themes that cannot be interpreted with certainty, such as seals depicting trees next to figures who may be divinities believed to reside in them. The bull is often depicted standing before a sort of altar, and the horned figure has been interpreted overconfidently as a prototype of the Hindu god Shiva. Small conical objects have been interpreted by some scholars as phallic emblems, though they may have been pieces used in board games. Other interpretations of the remains of the Harappa culture are even more speculative and, if accepted, would indicate that many features of later Hinduism were already in existence 4,000 years ago.

Hinduism (religion) : Other sources: the process of "Sanskritization" -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

India exists for thousands of years but Pakistan is 60 years old. as if 60 million people were born on august 14, 1947.

Their stupidity is that their division of heritage is based on religion

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hello little brothers. salaam. I am the person that wrote the Indus article. I am disturbed but not surprised by Indian's hegemony over our history. I am proud of you for responding with much finesse.

In their comments they demonstrate amazing contradictions. first they say:

You are not a central asian nor arab nor persian nor pushtun nor baloch.... you are an "Indian" Hindu converted at the tip of a sword.

When we Pakistanis say we are prouds sons of the soil, descendants of IVC, they say we all of a sudden become persians and arabs, uzbeks and afghan, invaders and marauders.. that it is they from bihar to assam to tamil nadu who are the true inheritors of indus.

you see this hypocrisy? they won't leave an opportunity to ATTEMPT strip us of our rich heritage. What these fools won't understand is that we are cross-civilizational nation. central asian, south asian, west asia, greater middle east.

India exists for thousands of years but Pakistan is 60 years old. as if 60 million people were born on august 14, 1947.

Understand this assault and fight it without mercy with your pen. It is more dangerous than a thousand Arjun tanks.

Could we have some evidence other than your anonymous statement that you are the author of this article? There have already been the only two representatives of the Islamic point of view, each contradicting the other, and both full of half-baked ideas and bazaar wisdom. How do we know who is authentic and who is not? What gives us an assurance that you are who you say you are? And not yet another fan-boy donning false beard and moustache to add numbers to a losing cause?

As for your somewhat shallow objections to the objections - it may come as a surprise to you, but there can be more than opinion among a common group, and neither group claims unique and sole authenticity - unlike your warring heroes. There is one section of Indians who see Pakistanis from the catchment area of the Indus River as indigenous; another group responds not to the masses whom they know already to be indigenous, but to the loud-mouthed who claim descent from a person one generation in the seventh century, and simultaneously proclaim that they, as descendants of this figure, have been migrating to a part of the sub-continent for four hundred years - approximately 14 generations - before their putative ancestor was born. There is no attempt at beating you out of your natural heritage. The discussion is about what constitutes your heritage, and on what grounds.

But all that to visible and accountable entities, not with another mysterious person in anonymous garb.

We might just as well clarify the mistaken and misunderstood portions of your gallant effort to those Pakistanis and South Asians who think as we do, outside the chains of Slavery to a national identity.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I wish some commentators would take the time to understand the nature of their subject before converting themselves into instant experts, thanks to some shallow on line explorations.

All this silly comment about Hindu temples not existing at the IVC sites is misplaced. There are other, better reasons to doubt that the IVC inhabitants worshipped Vedic deities, but unfortunately, those commenting about this aspect are not even equipped to define this position but go wandering about looking for temples.

There could have been no Hindu temples at the IVC sites because Hindu temples started being built, along with images of the gods, nearly half a millennium, 500 years, after the fall of the IVC.

First mentions of graven images occur in Panini's grammar. The question of temples without graven images is moot.

I hope that this totally irrelevant gush reproduced below is ignored by those discussing this topic seriously. What has been written is an attempt to identify what seeming figures of worship may have existed - they may have been artistic representations, for all we know - and to link them, or to separate them from contemporary or later faith systems that we know about. In other words, were there figures that could have represented figures from the developed middle period of Hindu theogony, or were these figures quite independent? Or, a possibility, were the figures completely not connected with faith systems?

Temples have no place in this discussion.

You guess and so did your historians who are too good in distorting the facts with their speculations and assumptions . We don't blame you as we know Hinduism is all about superstitions and speculations. You may find shiva in everything even if you look at shape of cloud on sky , sometimes it might appear and will look like shiva. The problems with seals, images, and inscriptions is that you may interpret them the way you wish . No temple has been discovered yet

here is some information for you to read from britannica Encyclopedia.

RELIGION IN THE INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION

The Harappa culture, located in what is now Pakistan, has produced much evidence of what may have been a cult of a goddess and a bull. Figurines of both occur, female figures being more common, while the bull appears more frequently on the many steatite seals. A horned figure, possibly with three faces, occurs on a few seals, and on one seal he is surrounded by animals. A few male figurines, one apparently in a dancing posture, may represent deities. No building has been discovered at any Harappan site that can be positively identified as a temple, but the Great Bath at Mohenjo-daro may have been used for ritual purposes, as were the ghats (bathing steps on riverbanks) attached to later Hindu temples. The presence of bathrooms in most of the houses and the remarkable system of covered drains indicate a strong concern for cleanliness that may have been related to concepts of ritual purity but perhaps merely to ideas of hygiene.

Many seals show what may be religious and legendary themes that cannot be interpreted with certainty, such as seals depicting trees next to figures who may be divinities believed to reside in them. The bull is often depicted standing before a sort of altar, and the horned figure has been interpreted overconfidently as a prototype of the Hindu god Shiva. Small conical objects have been interpreted by some scholars as phallic emblems, though they may have been pieces used in board games. Other interpretations of the remains of the Harappa culture are even more speculative and, if accepted, would indicate that many features of later Hinduism were already in existence 4,000 years ago.

Hinduism (religion) : Other sources: the process of "Sanskritization" -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia



Their stupidity is that their division of heritage is based on religion

..we should give IVC back to THE indians ...no matter if they donot give us taj mahal back we will make our own taj mahal which will be made by baloch

We can imagine the shape, the size and the aesthetic appeal of this monument.

 

[manofwar]

Hello little brothers. salaam. I am the person that wrote the Indus article. I am disturbed but not surprised by Indian's hegemony over our history. I am proud of you for responding with much finesse.

In their comments they demonstrate amazing contradictions. first they say:

You are not a central asian nor arab nor persian nor pushtun nor baloch.... you are an "Indian" Hindu converted at the tip of a sword.

When we Pakistanis say we are prouds sons of the soil, descendants of IVC, they say we all of a sudden become persians and arabs, uzbeks and afghan, invaders and marauders.. that it is they from bihar to assam to tamil nadu who are the true inheritors of indus.

you see this hypocrisy? they won't leave an opportunity to ATTEMPT strip us of our rich heritage. What these fools won't understand is that we are cross-civilizational nation. central asian, south asian, west asia, greater middle east.

India exists for thousands of years but Pakistan is 60 years old. as if 60 million people were born on august 14, 1947.

Understand this assault and fight it without mercy with your pen. It is more dangerous than a thousand Arjun tanks.

As is evident, you are new to this forum. If you had explored a bit more, then you would have realized that Pakistani on this forum are more into selective descent-That is, when required they claim the achievements of the islamic west Asia , or ridicule they Ganges civilization for their faults. Now when the time has come to prove their roots they whole heartily claim the Ganges and the IVC. Some have even gone to the extent of claiming IVC, because of Geographic location!!
It's like Saudi Arabia claiming the magnificence of the Ottomans because it once came under it........

Let me make this clear- we have no qualms in accepting you as our brother and an inheritee of the glorious past of this great subcontinent. But we would like you to then stop hurling abuses at our past , and ridiculing it, for the simple reason that it is your past too.
You can't simply claim the best of both South and West , and dissociate with their faults.......

 

[MadDog]

One thing Indians don't understand, it doesn't matter what religion IVS people had, its the preIslamic heritage of Pakistan ( when i say Pakistan i mean 5 regions Punjab, Afghania (old name of KPK), Kashmir, Sindh, baluchisTAN). Indus connects all these regions, nothing to do with present day India.
What Indian members here don't understand is that Pakistan is at the cross roads of Central and South Asia....it is a mix of ethnicities, with more than 33 regional languages and diverse cultures. They start writing what they have been taught in their schools and are not willing to accept IVC as part of Pakistan. It is the river along which the Aryans settled.
Even arabs were not muslim at a point in time and then they converted....they used to worship stones etc before that..religion is not an issue here...by bringing religion into the discussion indians here are showing how much secular they are in reality !!!

 

[pk_baloch]

We can imagine the shape, the size and the aesthetic appeal of this monument.

LOL yes only muslims can make this type of taj mahal and domes

 

[pk_baloch]

the fact is that we majority pakistani muslims have christan, BUDDIST,jewish,persia,arab ancestory but not hindu......only rajput's grandfather have hindu ancestory .......

MUSLIM TO ZAYADA MUSLIM HAZARAT MUHAMMD K BAD HUE HEIN TO ISS PHELE BOHAT SE LOG YAHAN I ..JESE JEWISH ,CHRISHISTEN .BOHAT SEMUSLIMS NE TO BAAD MEIN MIGRATION KI


RECENTLY GEOGRAPHIC CHANNEL MEN DIKHYA GAYA K PAKISTANI PEOPLE HAVE NOT HINDU ANCESTORY,

 

[pk_baloch]

Harappans ate beef, buried their dead, and had no "Hindu" temples,idols,deities.
RigVedic Aryans forbade idolatry, ate beef, sacrificed cows, had no caste system, and were culturally closer to ancient Iranic Avestan speakers
Under Persian rule, Zoroastrianism started to spread..
AND ZAROORI NAEE K SIRF COMMON ARAB YA PERSIAN K LOG MIGRATE KARTE HON ,,IN MEIN SE BOHAT SAREE AISE BHI ARAB YA PERSIAN THE JIN KI NASAL KISI PROPHET SE HO YA KISI BARI SHAKSIYAT SE .....
BALOCH ARE THE DECENDANT OF HAZRAT HAMZA................

 

[Joe Shearer]

One thing Indians don't understand, it doesn't matter what religion IVS people had, its the preIslamic heritage of Pakistan ( when i say Pakistan i mean 5 regions Punjab, Afghania (old name of KPK), Kashmir, Sindh, baluchisTAN). Indus connects all these regions, nothing to do with present day India.
What Indian members here don't understand is that Pakistan is at the cross roads of Central and South Asia....it is a mix of ethnicities, with more than 33 regional languages and diverse cultures. They start writing what they have been taught in their schools and are not willing to accept IVC as part of Pakistan. It is the river along which the Aryans settled.
Even arabs were not muslim at a point in time and then they converted....they used to worship stones etc before that..religion is not an issue here...by bringing religion into the discussion indians here are showing how much secular they are in reality !!!

Save your breath.

This is true of each component of Pakistan. There is no central cementing force between these components. It is wholly fictitious to claim a shadowy prior identity even before the religious vivisection that created Pakistan.

In the event that the present-day Pakistan dissolves into its individual components, which one will claim the IVC? where were your claims in the first twenty five years of your existence? Or did the fact that you could not force fit the Bangaldeshis inhibit you then? Why have you realized your true identity and your belonging to south Asia only after the 70s?

LOL yes only muslims can make this type of taj mahal and domes

Of course you are right. We see them all over Baluchistan.

the fact is that we majority pakistani muslims have christan, BUDDIST,jewish,persia,arab ancestory but not hindu......only rajput's grandfather have hindu ancestory .......

The fact is that there was no Hindu identity, there was south Asian identity. Christian and Buddhist were south Asians.

MUSLIM TO ZAYADA MUSLIM HAZARAT MUHAMMD K BAD HUE HEIN TO ISS PHELE BOHAT SE LOG YAHAN I ..JESE JEWISH ,CHRISHISTEN .BOHAT SEMUSLIMS NE TO BAAD MEIN MIGRATION KI

<gasp>

Another explanation! History in the making as we watch!!

RECENTLY GEOGRAPHIC CHANNEL MEN DIKHYA GAYA K PAKISTANI PEOPLE HAVE NOT HINDU ANCESTORY,

I didn't know this channel broadcast in Urdu. Now you can complete your education. What a relief!

Harappans ate beef, buried their dead, and had no "Hindu" temples,idols,deities.
RigVedic Aryans forbade idolatry, ate beef, sacrificed cows, had no caste system, and were culturally closer to ancient Iranic Avestan speakers
Under Persian rule, Zoroastrianism started to spread..
AND BUDDISM.....

Persia and the Persians had nothing to do with the spread of Buddhism.

AND ZAROORI NAEE K SIRF COMMON ARAB YA PERSIAN K LOG MIGRATE KARTE HON ,,IN MEIN SE BOHAT SAREE AISE BHI ARAB YA PERSIAN THE JIN KI NASAL KISI PROPHET SE HO YA KISI BARI SHAKSIYAT SE .....
BALOCH ARE THE DECENDANT OF HAZRAT HAMZA................

I suggest you do your arithmetic before making ridiculous statements. Try a calculator if you run out of fingers and toes.

 

[pk_baloch]

I suggest you do your arithmetic before making ridiculous statements. Try a calculator if you run out of fingers and toes.

and u should strong ur history .......

Persia and the Persians had nothing to do with the spread of Buddhism.

i wanted to write some thing about buddist ,thats mistake.