If you are into conspiracy theories then there is no point in arguing. I will just move on.
Fine, but look up Seymour Hersh's version in your free time, he's not just some conspiracy theorist, he's a pulitzer prize winning investigative journalists, and for his version of the OBL raid, he relied on his usual contacts in the US DoD, pentagon etc, and also contacts from our millitary. He made sure his version was corroborated by multiple sources on both sides.
https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v37/n10/seymour-m.-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden
Not all of these details have to be correct for point number one from the last post to stand. When relying on sources, sometimes you get some details which are not correct, others which are not mentioned, and some that are omitted due to lack of corroborating accounts or evidence. In my estimation, this is the most credible and detailed version of events out there as of today.
What planning and preparation would prevent a murderous maniac and his extremist followers from committing a political crime against Kashmiris? I mean you expect Bajwa to overthrow Indian parliament just like past Army chiefs used to do in Pakistan? Pindi Brigade cant do a coup in Dehli sir!! So why are you blaming Bajwa or PM for it? These were changes in Indian laws and we have no authority to prevent them. The geopolitical situation is in Indian favor - we are even witnessing Jerusulem now being accepted as a capital of Israel!! If you are thinking of a military offense - then sorry just like an offense is not a feasible option for India, it also applies to Pakistan (actually applies more to us).
Read what I said, stop getting worked up when I already said I don't agree with the quoted assessment. In my view however, it looked like we were caught off guard when Modi moved. As far as I'm aware, Modi had this in his party's manifesto and stated again and again that he'd do it. On the subject however, I don't see much our side could have done, beyond the usual which we did already do.
How does that prove Pakistan Army is incapable of fighting a war? Every nation faces success and defeats - US is considered to have lost vietnam and Afghanistan war as well, does that mean they have an incapable Military?
Don't put words in mouth! NOWHERE did I claim or concur with the part in bold. You asked if I thought this and I said 'No'. I elaborated on past performances because that was the content of the posts we quoted, talking about dictators and their failed wars.
Read carefully and don't strawman me.
About your specific conclusions on 65 and Kargil - in short they are wrong. The problem is laymen always like to see superficial results to decide winner or loser i.e how many did we kill or loose? How much territory gained or lost? Where as in Military terms its about meeting the objectives in the end. Russia lost more men in ww2 but is considered to have won. The Taliban lost the whole country but are still perceived as winners.
@PanzerKiel has explained these wars in detail in other threads and its better he answers it or can kindly provide the references.
By the end of those wars, did we achieve our objectives that motivated us to start those conflicts? No.
Gibraltar failed, the 65 war as a whole we performed well in considering we punched above our weight. But as for Kargil, it was a failure. I've already had this discussion with PanzerKiel and agree with his assessment in some areas, but overall this is my quick take on Kargil:
We captured very defensible and strategically valuable positions very easily and cheaply. These heights allowed us a commanding position on the battlefield, Indian attempts to dislodge us failed and they paid a heavy price for attempting it, we were able to accurately and effectively target their key National Highway 1, which goes roughly from Baramulla to Leh. We could cut it off easily.
The idea here was from what I've read that we'd retain these heights and repulse any attempts to dislodge us, and that additionally, these could be used to put pressure on India or be used as bargaining chips on withdrawal from Siachen, and wider Kashmir issue.
However, when Indians obviously made a fuss about our capturing of their heights, we said that these were mujahideen and not our men at all, they were non-state actors. This was a short-sighted way of dodging any international pressure, we'd pay the price later on. Musharraf also failed to consult the army leadership entirely too, nor did he consult or take into confidence the rest of the armed forces, including the air force. He also did not inform the government until later, and even then did not reveal all.
As a result, we failed to anticipate and prepare for Indian escalation. The IAF met some resistance due to shoulder launched SAMs at height, they even lost a few aircraft, but once they knew what protocols to use to stay clear of this threat, they had a free reign. Their Mirage-2000s carried out hundreds of strike sorties and hundreds of recon sorties on those positions of ours. In response, we did nothing and could do nothing. We had previously said that these were not our men, we would need to abandon that claim if we were to support them. There was also a risk that India might open new fronts, it favours them as a larger nation not to fight a small scale limited engagement with Pakistan, they do not yet have technological asymmetry, they press their advantage with scale and outweighing us.
Additionally, it was Musharraf himself along with his gang of four that panicked when the situation across the LoC began to escalate and we began losing positions. He asked our civilian leadership to ask the US to mediate, he lies about it to this day, but the pertinent point here is that the US was not interested in walking back India from asking for an unconditional withdrawal of our forces. Even our friends China, shunned us, they refused to extend even basic diplomatic support on Kargil. I could go on at length, but you should read accounts on the war yourself (accounts other than Musharraf's alone).
how long does it take? anti-army folk like jugnibaz -who does not even know the very basics of democracy- get promoted in to mod team. I say what-the-****?
Does criticizing the leadership of the army and commenting on dictators of the past make me anti-army? I joined this forum as an enthusiast of the armed forces of Pakistan, it's all that keeps me coming back to the forum when I'm too busy to post. As for the very basics of democracy, please go ahead and educate me, clearly you know better, I'll wait...
