What's new

A military is only for war-Pervez Hoodboy

Bullshit , Comparing Pakistan with Britain .
He should focus on his Physics and Maths lectures .
 
A military is only for war
Pervez HoodbhoyUpdated 10 Oct 2020
Facebook Count
Twitter Share

35
The writer is an Islamabad-based physicist and writer.

The writer is an Islamabad-based physicist and writer.
GEN Ayub Khan, president of Pakistan 1958-1969, was a simple man. His solutions to complex issues could sometimes take your breath away. On page 101 of Friends Not Masters — his autobiography written while in office — he complains that student indiscipline is rampant because “there are far too many students and not enough buildings, laboratories, and libraries”.
His suggested fix: “One instructor on a platform with a loudspeaker can take a very large body of students at one time, and just half an hour a day should build up their bodies and minds, and take the devil out of them.”
Actually, the business of purging devils is called exorcism, not education and sending PT masters to colleges or universities is absurd. But Ayub Khan’s charming modesty buys him reprieve. He readily admits that: “I was not a very bright student, nor did I find studies a particularly absorbing occupation.” In 1926, his father, a risaldar-major in the British Army, paid his fees for the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst where “life was spartan” and there was much rough and tumble among cadets. In keeping with the academy’s tradition to create a privileged officer class, he was duly assigned a British soldier as orderly.
Ayub’s cockeyed views on education owes to Sandhurst where physical drill and discipline came first and foremost. This would ensure that “the cadet has a graceful carriage, stands easy and erect, and shows by his bearing that he is manly and self-reliant. Mr Molesworth, an English authority, has said: The contrast between Hyperion and a Satyr is scarcely more striking than that which exists between the loutish bearing of a Lancashire lad and the firm, respectful, and self-respecting carriage of the same person after he has been disciplined and polished by the drill.”

Hyperion (a deity who holds the cosmos in place) rather than Satyr (a goat-like man) was how the handsome young Ayub thought of himself. Although he never won any war, a strong self-image encouraged him into becoming the world’s first self-declared field marshal. It also gave him sufficient confidence to launch the coup of 1958, dismiss president Iskander Mirza from office, and spend the next decade steering the country. While these were years of extraordinary movement, they were not always in the right direction.
Ayub firmly hitched Pakistan to the American wagon and, flush with American weapons, launched Operation Gibraltar. This started the 1965 war but with all options gone he had to end it inconclusively. He irreversibly alienated East Pakistan from West Pakistan. In 1968, widespread agitation finally ended his so-called Decade of Development. Nevertheless Ayub Khan is popularly rated higher than the generals who succeeded him: Yahya Khan, Ziaul Haq, and Pervez Musharraf.
Fortunately, British military academies have produced very few Ayub-like putschists. Certainly several British officers must have had Ayub-sized egos. Many an officer must have preened himself before a mirror and seen Hyperion there. But a military coup in the British system was and remains unthinkable. Why?
Successful societies know that those who fight wars well are not always best suited for running industries, academia, or government. Therefore British military officers, whether serving or retired, are not given preferential treatment outside of their specific skills. It is broadly realised that men in uniform can be heroic fighters in wartime but in other situations they can be just as clueless and bureaucratic as their civilian counterparts.
Imagine for a moment that the British military ran Britain or had a big hand in running it. Would British Airways survive cut-throat competition if its CEO was a retired RAF air marshal rather than some tech-savvy hi-fi business type? In working out complicated Brexit policy options, would a retired lieutenant general negotiate British interests better than a PhD in economics from Cambridge? Should the British Electricity Authority look for some distinguished electrical engineer or for a British army colonel instead? And would a Royal Navy admiral — serving or retired — be best placed to protect Britain’s interests in North Sea oil?
Fortunately for Britain, such an experiment has never been tried and military officers are not automatically made heads of organisations upon retirement. Else the result would be a graveyard of failing or flailing institutions similar to chronically sick organisations such as Pakistan Steel Mills, PIA, Suparco, Wapda, PCSIR, and countless others. In these places merit is regularly superseded not just at the very top but inside departments as well.
Military mindsets undeniably contain some exceptional qualities. The testing conditions of war require that militaries develop a spectrum of capabilities stretching from command and control to logistics and materiel management. Many develop their own engineering and medical facilities that are very useful when a natural or man-made disaster strikes. In fact, most countries have legislation requiring armed forces to support civilian authorities during emergencies and war.
But what can keep a military from wandering into civilian and administrative affairs during peacetime? At the end of World War II powerful militaries in the Western world were flush with victory. Adoring publics showered rose petals upon hero generals who, at some point, could have asserted themselves and become dangerous. That is why president Harry Truman had to sack Gen Douglas MacArthur. The political scientist Samuel Huntington wrote in 1957 that asserting civilian control is crucial and requires professionalising the military by setting it apart from the rest of society while teaching it to execute but not formulate policy.
Although military men in the age of electronic warfare have to be smarter and better informed than their predecessors, a graduate from some military academy is no substitute for those who have spent their careers honing specific skills in academia, industry, commerce, and a plethora of technical fields.
All Pakistani institutions are desperately short of competence and sorely need the right people in the right places. Retired officers when put at the head of organisations can make cosmetic changes and may superficially improve institutional discipline but not much else. Soldiers should stick to what they are good at and paid for — fighting wars rather than running businesses or making movies.
The writer is an Islamabad-based physicist and writer.
Published in Dawn, October 10th, 2020

the romanticism with the truth and idealism of good Dr Hoodbhoy has always been inspiring, even though at times misguided.

dr. Hoodbhoy seems to forget the prowess of
1) Charles de ghoul ( French dictator)
2) gherhard sheruder (German dictator)
3) the Spanish dictator,
4)the monarchy n England and most of Europe
5) the House of Lords in England
6) mosulaini in Italy
7)dr mohatir in Malaysia
8) shoartu in Indonesia
9) mao of china
10) Stalin of Russia
11) Musharraf of Pakistan
12) Ayub khan of Pakistan
13) Bhutto of Pakistan

all of these were leaders , dictators and visionaries who helped their countries through their darkest hour. Nations have progressed a lot though history under a leader who loves his people and gives them the vision to grow. These were mostly men who had to prove their metal through action rather than have a lot of education.

So a successful leader in my experience industry, military and government alike is one that has a vision of the greater battlefield and willingness to take decisive action to what they believe to be the best course of action given the limited information at hand. Even if at times this seems wrong.

academia helps develop our sense of what is right and wrong. Yet it has always been too conservative to act. Even today the best leaders are ones that act. Case and point Imran khan BA political science who acted on the 27th of February and did not hide behind academia’s sense of all the economic woes it could bring. Today all of us here marvel at how Imran is a leader and nawaz is not.
 

Ah mr. hood"winked"bhoy certainly has a knack for sensationalism. He is a prime example of what an educated western thinking, Liberal Jahil looks like. This idiot seems to be purposely avoiding the fact that 20 years of Benazir, Nawaz, again Benazir, followed again by Nawaz, then vomit inducing Zardari and finally the bald-idiot Nawaz again have cumulatively destroyed Pakistan's economy. The blatant loot and plunder by these $wine-b@$tards has no equal. What more, these p!glet-traitors would sell their mothers for money and absolute power.

This hoodwinkedbhoy is a pathetic fool, living in some sordid alternate reality, where democracy turns Pakistan into a Utopian State. The j@ck@$$ has to be one of the most brain-dead, useless intellects to emerge in Pakistan. Stick to your physics mr. hoodbhoy, since you're incapable of understanding Pakistani society from the comfort of your mansion and the filth money you make off of the enemies of the state.

Idiots like him ought to go jump in the Arabian Sea, never to return.
 
This author is correct in the sense that we need the right man for the right hand job, should be on merit, even though I don't fully agree on his many biased opinions which he has voiced many times. He being an physicist should stick to his own subject, or have some kind philosophy degree to at least make sense of what he says.
 
  1. General Ayub Khan swapped Shaksgam Valley.
  2. General Yahya Khan lost half of the country in just 17-days.
  3. General Zia-ul-Haq lost Siachin Glacier.
  4. General (convicted traitor) Pervez Musharraf lost Kargil / Waziristan.
  5. General Pervez Ashfaq Kiyani allowed OBL raid.
  6. General Qamar Javed Bajwa allowed annexation of Indian Occupied Kashmir.
Considering the above events in the last 73-years, I am wondering whether Pakistani Army is even capable of fighting a war?
You, SO full of Shiit man.. Look at jealousy u have in your mind... Matlab kuch bhi..
 
Author is a atheist Liberal fascist with gross anti Islam and anti pakistan agenda




Why don't you make up loss of North America and kalimanjaro mountains while you are at it

If a military is not for war, what is it for, to sit around? You don't need to hear it from a "liberal-fascist" (what?) atheistic anti-islam anti-pakistan anti-you anti-christ anti-blabla lala and anti-fantasy lands, to make sense of that.
he make sense but then this nation do not want any sense .

Even Musharraf said, if soldiers are afraid of death, then why are they even in the Army? The purpose of Army is war to secure interests.

What does our Army do though? It's busy securing Jeeps, Mercedes, jobs, and DHA plots.
What good is such an army who deem running businesses and their social welfare more than their actual duty.
 
  1. General Ayub Khan swapped Shaksgam Valley.
  2. General Yahya Khan lost half of the country in just 17-days.
  3. General Zia-ul-Haq lost Siachin Glacier.
  4. General (convicted traitor) Pervez Musharraf lost Kargil / Waziristan.
  5. General Pervez Ashfaq Kiyani allowed OBL raid.
  6. General Qamar Javed Bajwa allowed annexation of Indian Occupied Kashmir.
Considering the above events in the last 73-years, I am wondering whether Pakistani Army is even capable of fighting a war?
We have a military with an $11B budget compared to $60B on the other side. That tends to limit options. I doubt you have anything better to offer.

  1. General Ayub Khan swapped Shaksgam Valley.
    1. This actually solved Pakistan's border issues with China for good. It actually was the best long term investment made by Pakistan with China over time becoming a steadfast friend and supporter. Only the Indian side has heartburn over this, otherwise you talk to anyone in the FO or the military about this issue, and they will say its a non-issue with massive RoI for Pakistan.
  2. General Yahya Khan lost half of the country in just 17-days.
    1. 17 days was the 65 war. 1971 war was 13 days long but more importantly, why did the East Pakistanis turn against Pakistan? Does ZAB's decision to not let MuR form government not have anything to do with this? Why does the then political dispensation not get this blame as they were the ones who rejected Yahya's offer to let MuR form a government?
  3. General Zia-ul-Haq lost Siachin Glacier.
    1. Zia and the Army reacted to an Indian move to garrison troops at the glacier. Prior to 84, neither side had any troops there. As far as the "lost" is concerned, how is that a loss when Indian troops and government cannot do much but continue their garrisoning of the glacier just the same as Pakistan? Yes, they have some of the dominating heights but Pakistan maintains a presence to this day there and there is no way for the Indians to remove Pakistan and vice versa.
  4. General (convicted traitor) Pervez Musharraf lost Kargil / Waziristan.
    1. Kargil was with India in 1971 and remained with them. What is "lost" in Waziristan?
  5. General Pervez Ashfaq Kiyani allowed OBL raid.
    1. What did you want him to do? Let Americans ignore OBL upon finding him? Did you want Pakistan to take on the might of the United States and get destroyed in the process?
  6. General Qamar Javed Bajwa allowed annexation of Indian Occupied Kashmir.
    1. Really? What levers did, of all people, Gen Bajwa have to stop India's decision to change the status of a territory they already occupied?
Let's go with your comment about the Pakistan Army not being able to fight any war. Ok, you are right, its for show. What are your options? You want to disband it? Do you want to increase its funding? Talk is cheap specially when such lists are thrown around with abandon.

I prefer to see glass as half full. The military, with its limited funding, does wonders for Pakistan. To this day Kashmir issue is alive. Waziristan has been pacified, Siachen is status-quo despite being at a huge military disadvantage against India. East Pakistan became Pakistan's "never again" moment driving the national security/military to deliver on "eating grass but delivering on a strategic deterrence". As such, even with reverses (suffered by all the militaries of world, including the US, China, India, Israel etc. etc.), the military in Pakistan does us proud.
 
Last edited:
Agree on the dictators, but the army as a whole and the men in it are our pride. The latest political movements are not against the army, only against the leadership’s intervention in politics, which is both unwelcome and unconstitutional. As for the OP, it mostly talks about industry and state owned enterprises being run most efficiently by people specialised for that role rather than generic retired officers.
So you agree from the post you quoted:
1) Pakistan Army chief allowed OBL raid?
2) Pakistan army chief allowed Kashmir annexation by Modi?
3) Pakistan army is not capable of fighting wars?

Do you even understand the implications of the nonsense he is spewing and you as an official agreeing passively or failing to point out the gross vile propaganda being carried out for petty political vendetta ? Basically: Qamar Bajwa supports letting Kashmiris suffer under Indian suppression, and the men he is sacrificing on LOC every day are in fact for a useless cause - as according to you and some of the duffers here Army has secretly compromised with Indian leadership against the Kashmiris? India changed its in the parliament - and no Pakistani official has the authority to not let them change. The Army on ground can and has bravely maintained status quo so far against an enemy 7x in every sense, plus got rid of internal enemies and managed a juggernaut of multiple nations on the western border - if this is not a display of war fighting capabilities then what else is?

For the blind followers of the racist party, who are trying show patriotism by saying that they respect the soldiers but not the generals or army leadership - are the biggest hypocrites, liars and fools. Army’s only strength comes from discipline and the willingness of the soldiers to provide their lives based on the Generals order! If the General says stand at point x and defend with your life, even if the odds are 10 to 1, they will march and to the suicidal mission. To break this unity, trust, chain of command and ‘jazba’ between higher and lower ranks is just treasonous in nature and a foolish attempt to weaken a country surrounded in a very hostile neighborhood.

We have a military with an $11B budget compared to $60B on the other side. That tends to limit options. I doubt you have anything better to offer.

  1. General Ayub Khan swapped Shaksgam Valley.
    1. This actually solved Pakistan's border issues with China for good. It actually was the best long term investment made by Pakistan with China over time becoming a steadfast friend and supporter. Only the Indian side has heartburn over this, otherwise you talk to anyone in the FO or the military about this issue, and they will say its a non-issue with massive RoI for Pakistan.
  2. General Yahya Khan lost half of the country in just 17-days.
    1. 17 days was the 65 war. 1971 war was 13 days long but more importantly, why did the East Pakistanis turn against Pakistan? Does ZAB's decision to not let MuR form government not have anything to do with this? Why does the then political dispensation not get this blame as they were the ones who rejected Yahya's offer to let MuR form a government?
  3. General Zia-ul-Haq lost Siachin Glacier.
    1. Zia and the Army reacted to an Indian move to garrison troops at the glacier. Prior to 84, neither side had any troops there. As far as the "lost" is concerned, how is that a loss when Indian troops and government cannot do much but continue their garrisoning of the glacier just the same as Pakistan? Yes, they have some of the dominating heights but Pakistan maintains a presence to this day there and there is no way for the Indians to remove Pakistan and vice versa.
  4. General (convicted traitor) Pervez Musharraf lost Kargil / Waziristan.
    1. Kargil was with India in 1971 and remained with them. What is "lost" in Waziristan?
  5. General Pervez Ashfaq Kiyani allowed OBL raid.
    1. What did you want him to do? Let Americans ignore OBL upon finding him? Did you want Pakistan to take on the might of the United States and get destroyed in the process?
  6. General Qamar Javed Bajwa allowed annexation of Indian Occupied Kashmir.
    1. Really? What levers did, of all people, Gen Bajwa have to stop India's decision to change the status of a territory they already occupied?
Let's go with your comment about the Pakistan Army not being able to fight any war. Ok, you are right, its for show. What are your options? You want to disband it? Do you want to increase its funding? Talk is cheap specially when such lists are thrown around with abandon.

I prefer to see glass as half full. The military, with its limited funding, does wonders for Pakistan. To this day Kashmir issue is alive. Waziristan has been pacified, Siachen is status-quo despite being at a huge military disadvantage against India. East Pakistan became Pakistan's "never again" moment driving the national security/military to deliver on "eating grass but delivering on a strategic deterrence". As such, even with reverses (suffered by all the militaries of world, including the US, China, India, Israel etc. etc.), the military in Pakistan does us proud.
This guy is mentally deranged- he will continue copy-pasting these lines again and again in unrelated threads. I have lost count on how many times these same off topic points I have personally debunked. But some are deaf dumb and blind in rage - because of how a certain Mian has fallen from grace.
I mean if some one believes Pakistan Army is not capable of fighting a war then no explanation will help.
 
Last edited:
Pakistan army deserves Pakistan. It is they who protects it. Any externalities it commits in the land is just a luxury they earned through their service. Its the Raja - Praja relationship. The defacto monarch of the state is the COAS. The elections and elected all have to bend before the monarchical head. Pakistan populace wants this arrangement to continue. In my opinion, great choice by the people.

LoL

India deserves and is being ruled by a chai wala while Pakistan deserves and is being ruled by a Oxford educated.
 
Can I ask you something? Did you read the article?
the Author is a great writer and presents his case very well.
he deliberated his case woth some examples but he also qualified his statement with word "not always".

meaning there are cases across the globe throughout history where former military generals became successful statesmen. specially during WW2 and later some had experienced in civilian and military setup.

that aside the message is ,that running country like a military unit is a wrong approach you cant bully and punish people to comply "all the time".
  1. General Ayub Khan swapped Shaksgam Valley.
  2. General Yahya Khan lost half of the country in just 17-days.
  3. General Zia-ul-Haq lost Siachin Glacier.
  4. General (convicted traitor) Pervez Musharraf lost Kargil / Waziristan.
  5. General Pervez Ashfaq Kiyani allowed OBL raid.
  6. General Qamar Javed Bajwa allowed annexation of Indian Occupied Kashmir.
Considering the above events in the last 73-years, I am wondering whether Pakistani Army is even capable of fighting a war?
but Alas we still have you.
I mean yay they failed to get you.
 
So you agree that
1) Pakistan Army chief allowed OBL raid themselves?
2) Pakistan army chief allowed Kashmir annexation by Modi?
3) Pakistan army is coward and not capable of fighting wars now?
  1. Yes
  2. No
  3. No, but I’ll comment on past wars
On the first point, I’d refer you to see what I’ve said on the subject of the OBL raid in the past. OBL was in our custody and had been for years before the raid, the civilian government did not know and were not informed, only very few people knew and it was a closely guarded secret. Pulitzer Prize winning journalists Seymour Hersh detailed how the US found out, and the subsequent raid that was agreed upon and how the plan was compromised and how Pakistan was thrown under the bus at the last minute, and it’s also why our army was silent and civilian leadership confused. It is also what led to tensions between the army and the PPP government of the time, and it subsequently led to memogate. This version of the OBL raid also fits the version ex DG ISI Asad Duranni alluded to in an interview, and also a historian here in the UK who quoted another high ranking official. I’m loose on specifics here, you can look up the details yourself starting with Seymour Hersh. One day this whole thing may be declassified, or the story let slip.

On the second point, I don’t agree. We didn’t just allow it, but perhaps our side, all our leadership were caught off guard and unprepared. Perhaps better planning might have led to better response.

On the third point, I don’t call them cowards, it’s not for a civilian to call a serving officer or general a coward, especially those who distinguished themselves in the army. However, there is no doubt that our dictators started and lost wars. Operation Gibraltar was a failure and it also failed to anticipate India launching a full scale war. We lost Siachen, but I have not read much about the subject so I’ll refrain from judgement. But on Kargil, I’ve read more than enough, we started it and we lost it, mostly because of poor planning and an inability to anticipate the enemy’s response and international pressure. Musharraf blames everyone else, it was his stupidity that lost the war and destroyed negotiations about Kashmir.
 
Back
Top Bottom