A JF-17 equipped with Aselpod & SOM cruise missiles ?

[mustafa erkan]

Does Pakistan need Chinese permission for integration of aselpod to jf-17?
Why ı am asking this question is that; there is a big potential for Pakistan to adopt Turkish subsystems to jf-17s. Adopting one country's subsytems will be much more easy which will give independence to Pakistan.
This is a matter of time because the TFX schedule is for 2023. They will be ready until this time.Every our weapons and subsytems will be altenatives for Pakistan ı guess.

 

[Djinn]

Does Pakistan need Chinese permission for integration of aselpod to jf-17?
Why ı am asking this question is that; there is a big potential for Pakistan to adopt Turkish subsystems to jf-17s. Adopting one country's subsytems will be much more easy which will give independence to Pakistan.
This is a matter of time because the TFX schedule is for 2023. They will be ready until this time.Every our weapons and subsytems will be altenatives for Pakistan ı guess.

Pakistan doesn't need any kind of permission, but what Pakistan may require from Chinese would be the technical assistance in its integration with the JF-17 or perhaps even that may not be required.

 

[Oguzhan]

ıt is some news and headlines line "If Turkey produce Babur missiles ?" "Is there an agreement between Pakis on missile program?" "Turkey needed to publish the missile program that had been dealth with Chineese."
I don't know but if Turkey used Babur's technology,we would make a Babur.I think SOM is totally different.It is shooted from air.Uses a turbofan engine etc etc.

 

[nangyale]

The truth is, the Pakistani elite whether military or political readily embrace these demands for personal reason. America can't force Pakistan to go against its own democratic charters and constitution. Same excuse given for drone strikes. Truth is Pakistan doesn't want to end drone strikes for whatever reason, yet publicly Pakistani leaders front fantastic outrages. Truth is both the military and political elite are on board.

But that's exactly what they have been doing.
They wait for an opportune moment when the leadership is it's weakest (e-g when Musharraf sacked the SC judges and the whole country went crazy) and then ask to do their bidding and offer the good offices of the multinational MSM and international creditors as reward.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Bro, this is the problem. Everything you just wrote (about Ra'ad II) is a good analysis, but it isn't fact, it's just your perspective. Yes, it's well informed, but such a perspective can never replace a hard fact unless it is confirmed by the authorities. Also, nothing you wrote actually disputes my points - what about the Ra'ad weight? Why hasn't been cleared for the JF-17 yet? What, we don't want to show it off even though we showed off having ALCMs to begin with?

If tomorrow we see this Ra'ad II with a lighter body and more range, then yes, I will embrace it for what it is and stop my fingers from typing about the SOM. However, until that is the case, we can't use an analysis of the Ra'ad program as a means to disqualify the SOM or other options.

For example, I can claim that because the Ra'ad's range is 350km, it is possible that we are producing its micro turbojet, which is a huge plus since Turkey currently imports the turbojet for SOM. But this is just a claim. It makes lots of sense and could be true, but until NESCOM or AWC confirm this is to be the case, I can't go around throwing this above the SOM.

thats the problem they aint saying nothing especaily regarding strategic weapons, to sensitive. heck the coastal missile "zarb" thats all we got a name and that its a costal missile if they aint talking on that they aint gonna talk on anything and the professionals they will misguide you on purpose and send a false trail. they do send info on there missiles but only for typical missiles that expected of pakistan to have balistic missiles and some cruise misiles. heck do you even know they have a slcm already? yeah i found out late last year. and the stated ranges are wrong. 350 km for the raad? yeah right look at its weight class its with other alcm and they are at about 500km + if they are correct in saying it is really 350km then they are way behind in their missile engine development and i doubt that as tomahaws that crashed and china combined possibly urkraine too will help them.

the jf-17 is getting the turkish pod and thats it no som missile. why get it fom turkey when you can get it from china at a reduced price if the need arrises to it.

Can any Turkish member translate this?

thats from my thread

 

[MastanKhan]

I have always said Turkish military coups fundamentally reset and reconfigure Turkish political older while in Pakistan, military coups continuously preserve and energize the old failed political order.

Hi,

Only if pakistan's politicians had learnt to make changes to what they did for their downfall---things would be better.

As long as they keep on doing the same things---they will get the same results.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Hi,

Bilal Khan stated something about the raad---. They can integrate their equipment to any system because they have authorization---we don't---so we cannot integrate it on the F16.

I have not seen rtaad fired from any other aircraft than mirage---but then I haven't seen any f16's or JF17's flying around with BVR missiles either.

There is a fundamental difference in the VENDOR types in Turkey and pakistan---. In turkey---it maybe govt or investors---in pakistan---it is owned by the military.

Over there---any conflciting technology sold---can be blamed on the business ventures---over here it would be blamed on pak military---.

You have to comprehend the back ground and understand the difference. Tomorrow if Aselsan is sanctioned---big deal---but if tomorrow kamra or pof is sanctioned---we got serious issues---.

Does that explain things in a different perspective,

I go through a lot of Turkish marketing material, and fan boys posting all the information. Strat weapons will never be bought in. SOM would be a good achievement, but we have many programs already in place for these requirements.

Does Pakistan need Chinese permission for integration of aselpod to jf-17?
Why ı am asking this question is that; there is a big potential for Pakistan to adopt Turkish subsystems to jf-17s. Adopting one country's subsytems will be much more easy which will give independence to Pakistan.
This is a matter of time because the TFX schedule is for 2023. They will be ready until this time.Every our weapons and subsytems will be altenatives for Pakistan ı guess.

Chinese are not involved in weapon and sensor integration of JF17. Everything is done in Pakistan.

ıt is some news and headlines line "If Turkey produce Babur missiles ?" "Is there an agreement between Pakis on missile program?" "Turkey needed to publish the missile program that had been dealth with Chineese."
I don't know but if Turkey used Babur's technology,we would make a Babur.I think SOM is totally different.It is shooted from air.Uses a turbofan engine etc etc.

SOM is a smaller weapon, in terms of payload. Our threat profiles are different. in SOW, Pakistan already has the type types of w\h and sensor groups it needs in the ALCM, GLCM, and SLCM programs. Comparing them to SOM is not really relevant. All CM programs in Pakistan use bigger engines than French MT TRI40 of SOM. It is about the payload, and delivery vehicle is built around that.

why pakistan is not using or spending money on R&D on turbo jets for cruise missile it can extent range and reduce weight simple i have no idea what pakistani scientist are thinking or they are just getting paid for doing nothing

There is more done in this area than in public eye

 

[Quwa]

thats the problem they aint saying nothing especaily regarding strategic weapons, to sensitive. heck the coastal missile "zarb" thats all we got a name and that its a costal missile if they aint talking on that they aint gonna talk on anything and the professionals they will misguide you on purpose and send a false trail. they do send info on there missiles but only for typical missiles that expected of pakistan to have balistic missiles and some cruise misiles. heck do you even know they have a slcm already? yeah i found out late last year. and the stated ranges are wrong. 350 km for the raad? yeah right look at its weight class its with other alcm and they are at about 500km + if they are correct in saying it is really 350km then they are way behind in their missile engine development and i doubt that as tomahaws that crashed and china combined possibly urkraine too will help them.

the jf-17 is getting the turkish pod and thats it no som missile. why get it fom turkey when you can get it from china at a reduced price if the need arrises to it.


thats from my thread

I reiterate - this is all analysis and guesswork. Your conclusions are sound, but we can't take them as fact unless they're verified as such (especially the SLCM bit) by the authorities. We're only talking about Ra'ad and Babur because knowledge of these systems was disclosed by the armed forces, otherwise, we only knew about "stand-off weapons," which we had zero concrete understanding of what they were or form they took (literally zero).

Granted, any claim about improvement should be precluded with a "this is just an opinion, I don't know everything," but it'd be unfair to discount those views without hard facts. We don't know where our micro turbo-jet technology stands; are we producing it in Pakistan? Are we importing it from somewhere else? How do we know the technology is antiquated or modern? The moment any one of us try to answer these questions, we will come up with analytical conclusions, not facts. And if it works for us, then it works for everyone else too (e.g. the Turks, Indians, Chinese, etc).

That said, Pakistan did actually sign a MoU with Turkey in 2008 to co-develop turbojet technology and other things applicable to LACM development. Seeing what the Turks are showing off these days, things may not be bleak on our end at all - but this is just my analytical opinion

Pakistan agrees to further defence co-operation with Turkey

Lale Sariibrahimoglu JDW Correspondent - Ankara

Pakistan and Turkey have agreed to co-operate in research and development (R&D) on a broad range of defence projects, including the joint production of cluster bombs.

Talks on the progress of co-operation are due to be held in April, when a Pakistani military delegation is scheduled to visit Ankara. The meeting is also intended to prepare the agenda for annual bilateral military talks in Islamabad in November.

The first meeting, which took place in Ankara between 18 and 21 October 2007, identified the areas of potential co-operation in defence, research, technology and production.

According to details obtained by Jane's , the main development and production projects the two countries will concentrate on are:

- NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical) detection, protection and decontamination equipment produced in Turkey;

- 81 mm mortar ammunition;

- production of cluster bombs with 300 to 400 bomblets each for different missions;

- production of precision-guided munitions;

- stealth technology to lower the radar cross-section of aircraft;

- detection systems for use against improvised explosive devices;

- precision-guided bomblets for conventional munitions;

- turbojet motors;

- co-operation in the sale and production of 122 mm short- and long-range multiple rocket launcher ammunition (Turkey's Roketsan and Machines and Chemical Industries Board are proposing sales and joint production with Pakistan);

- co-operation on AB103-104 MK82 fuses to train Turkish military personnel (as Pakistan sold the ammunition to Turkey in 2006);

- co-operation on producing automated combat manoeuvring instrument systems; and

- co-operation on early warning suites - including jammers for communication and radar sensors - for CN-235 aircraft

 

[war&peace]

Only ASELPOD
our ra'ad is better than SOM
som is based upon ra'ad technology

Let's not go into which is better than the other. Both are good weapons and Ra'ad is good for Pakistan while SOM is good for Turkey. However both countries can cooperate to enhance each other capabilities, do JVs etc. But Pakistan cannot get SOM due to MTCR regime while Ra'ad has nuclear capability that lends it an edge over SOM. The navigation and guidance capabilities are similar and Ra'ad II is getting few more things that SOM does not have currently.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

According to latest reports from industry, Kale Aero, designed developed domestic turbo-jet engine called Kale-3500, delivered two working prototypes to officials in June 2016.

KALE-3500 design
-Diameter: 300mm
-Length: 700mm
-Weight: 48kg
-Power: 3,2kN Standart, 3,5kN Maximum Thrust


French MicroTurbo TRI-40 turbojet
Length: 680 mm
Diameter: 280 mm
Dry weight: 44 kg
Maximum thrust: 2.5-3.3 kN (560-750 lbf)

KaleAero and SSM is planning to sign a new agreement this months for development of more powerful turbo-jet project equal thrust to more or less TRI-50.

This is the most promising development out of Turkey, which is a few years out of being realised.

 

[Quwa]

Does Pakistan need Chinese permission for integration of aselpod to jf-17?
Why ı am asking this question is that; there is a big potential for Pakistan to adopt Turkish subsystems to jf-17s. Adopting one country's subsytems will be much more easy which will give independence to Pakistan.
This is a matter of time because the TFX schedule is for 2023. They will be ready until this time.Every our weapons and subsytems will be altenatives for Pakistan ı guess.

One of the main reasons why Pakistan spent money on developing the JF-17 was in order to get maximum freedom in terms of integrating its choice of subsystems onto the platform. The JF-17 has its physical limitations, but the ability to integrate your choice of pod, radar, avionics, air-to-air or air-to-ground munitions, etc, more than compensates for that problem (at least in Pakistan's case).

 

[Blue Marlin]

I reiterate - this is all analysis and guesswork. Your conclusions are sound, but we can't take them as fact unless they're verified as such (especially the SLCM bit) by the authorities. We're only talking about Ra'ad and Babur because knowledge of these systems was disclosed by the armed forces, otherwise, we only knew about "stand-off weapons," which we had zero concrete understanding of what they were or form they took (literally zero).

Granted, any claim about improvement should be precluded with a "this is just an opinion, I don't know everything," but it'd be unfair to discount those views without hard facts. We don't know where our micro turbo-jet technology stands; are we producing it in Pakistan? Are we importing it from somewhere else? How do we know the technology is antiquated or modern? The moment any one of us try to answer these questions, we will come up with analytical conclusions, not facts. And if it works for us, then it works for everyone else too (e.g. the Turks, Indians, Chinese, etc).

That said, Pakistan did actually sign a MoU with Turkey in 2008 to co-develop turbojet technology and other things applicable to LACM development. Seeing what the Turks are showing off these days, things may not be bleak on our end at all - but this is just my analytical opinion

as for the rant its true even rashid mahmood said they have it but not directly and that was this year but i found out last year from a guy in karachi.

as for the engine development for cruise missiles. i would ASSUME since they have the zarb raad and babur i would expectsome kind of facilitydeveloping mini engines. the turks can get theri hands on western engines from williams, teledyne or microturbo the latter being most likely as its in the som missile.
nearer to the induction of the 8 subs we will hopefully get some info. but this being a second strike weapon i doubt they will be open. probably just share a few pics

 

[Blue Marlin]

This is the most promising development out of Turkey, which is a few years out of being realised.

dont pakistan have an engine bigger than this for the babur

According to latest reports from industry, Kale Aero, designed developed domestic turbo-jet engine called Kale-3500, delivered two working prototypes to officials in June 2016.

KALE-3500 design
-Diameter: 300mm
-Length: 700mm
-Weight: 48kg
-Power: 3,2kN Standart, 3,5kN Maximum Thrust


French MicroTurbo TRI-40 turbojet
Length: 680 mm
Diameter: 280 mm
Dry weight: 44 kg
Maximum thrust: 2.5-3.3 kN (560-750 lbf)

KaleAero and SSM is planning to sign a new agreement this months for development of more powerful turbo-jet project equal thrust to more or less TRI-50.

the tri 50 has the same amount of thrust has the tri 40. 340 dan or 3.4kn

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

dont pakistan have an engine bigger than this for the babur

the tri 50 has the same amount of thrust has the tri 40. 340 dan or 3.4kn

1000 Kg class CM need much more TJ thrust, 500 dan or more. This is TRI 60-40 category. We already have the TJ for it and it is already field proven and in-service. This is due to payload, and nav, conv or otherwise. This was my initial argument.

 

[Blue Marlin]

1000 Kg class CM need much more TJ thrust, 500 dan or more. This is TRI 60-40 category. We already have the TJ for it and it is already field proven and in-service. This is due to payload, and nav, conv or otherwise. This was my initial argument.

the tri-60-30 is in 500-550 dan range which would be sufficent on the babur. so you lot do have microturbo engine tech then. but the fuel consumption would be about 2.5lbs/h as compared to western systems which is 2.2 lbs/h fuel consumption