A Homeland for Indian Muslims

[vegav]

Tipu was a zalim only to criminals and rebels. Not very different to how India treats Kashmiri fighters.


His rule was a slight aberration.
Mughal regimes should have considered it as a consistent policy instead of a one time fix.

Man you are an amazing troll, lol.

Tipu was a zalim only to criminals and rebels. Not very different to how India treats Kashmiri fighters.


His rule was a slight aberration.
Mughal regimes should have considered it as a consistent policy instead of a one time fix.

Allah gave Tipu what he deserves, death like a dog.

 

[ChennaiDude]

You still have to speak Tamil in Chennai unlike other cities. Jaya is tamilz others are of Telugu origin but raised in tamil lands.

I speak fluent Tamil-Infact better than Telegu itself. Unfortunately I cant read or write in Telegu or Tamil- Hindi is the only Indian language I can read and write in.

You are correct- Jayalalitha is a Tam Bram (Iyengar Family) - got mixed up- she was born in Karnataka thats what I mixed up. Apologies.

 

[padamchen]

I speak fluent Tamil-Infact better than Telegu itself. Unfortunately I cant read or write in Telegu or Tamil- Hindi is the only Indian language I can read and write in.

You are correct- Jayalalitha is a Tam Bram (Iyengar Family) - got mixed up- she was born in Karnataka thats what I mixed up. Apologies.

Sorry for butting in but if that's so why did you go nuclear recently about Hindi?

It's the only possible link language for India. Practically.

I must admit you came across as a Tamil.chauvinist though I understand you were engaging with a provocateur.

 

[ChennaiDude]

Sorry for butting in but if that's so why did you go nuclear recently about Hindi?

It's the only possible link language for India. Practically.

I must admit you came across as a Tamil.chauvinist though I understand you were engaging with a provocateur.

I have nothing against Hindi- To me its a language that links the nation as a common language (Just like English)- To me Tamil/Telegu/Kanada/Malayalam/Gujarathi/Marathi-etc are as important as Hindi. Why impose Hindi on the general population, let the state/region define what works for each-No

I have learnt Hindi as a 2nd language in school right from 1st standard.(Even though my options were Tamil as well as French or German)- The reason my parents choose Hindi for me, thankfully (As they dont speak it) was for the same reason- A link language for the rest of India.

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

I have nothing against Hindi- To me its a language that links the nation as a common language (Just like English)- To me Tamil/Telegu/Kanada/Malayalam/Gujarathi/Marathi-etc are as important as Hindi. Why impose Hindi on the general population, let the state/region define what works for each-No

I have learnt Hindi as a 2nd language in school right from 1st standard.(Even though my options were Tamil as well as French or German)- The reason my parents choose Hindi for me, thankfully (As they dont speak it) was for the same reason- A link language for the rest of India.

And that's how Hindi should be. A link language. Nothing more. Nothing less. We Indians are quite proficient in learning 3 languages so our native language, English and Hindi is fine enough.

 

[padamchen]

I have nothing against Hindi- To me its a language that links the nation as a common language (Just like English)- To me Tamil/Telegu/Kanada/Malayalam/Gujarathi/Marathi-etc are as important as Hindi. Why impose Hindi on the general population, let the state/region define what works for each-No

I have learnt Hindi as a 2nd language in school right from 1st standard.(Even though my options were Tamil as well as French or German)- The reason my parents choose Hindi for me, thankfully (As they dont speak it) was for the same reason- A link language for the rest of India.

English does not come remotely close to Hindi as a link language for the masses, south to nort, east to west.

Simple numbers.

They are not even on the same planet.

How is Hindi imposed on South Indians?

 

[ChennaiDude]

English does not come remotely close to Hindi as a link language for the masses, south to nort, east to west.

Simple numbers.

They are not even on the same planet.

How is Hindi imposed on South Indians?

No not south Indians- I can only talk froma TN perspective- I have no right to talk about Karnatak/Kerala or Andhra Pradesh! English is a better link language in TN than Hindi- Hindi is hardly spoken or understood by the majority of TN population- English has a better chance to be understood than Hindi.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-48495482

Lets say If TN Gov asks everyone to understand Tamil/(Speak, Read and write)-for you to be able to live and work in TN then what would non Tamilians who live and work in TN do?- Its the same why even talk or give a direction related to Hindi-Its just a principle, not that Tamilians dont understand Hindi they do.

 

[padamchen]

No not south Indians- I can only talk froma TN perspective- I have no right to talk about Karnatak/Kerala or Andhra Pradesh!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-48495482

Lets say If TN Gov asks everyone to understand Tamil/(Speak, Read and write)-for you to be able to live and work in TN then what would non Tamilians who live and work in TN do?- Its the same why even talk or give a direction related to Hindi-Its just a principle, not that Tamilians dont understand Hindi they do.

I meant is Hindi forced in school?

ICSE yes. Don't know about CBSE.

Obviously not in state board.

 

[ChennaiDude]

I meant is Hindi forced in school?

ICSE yes. Don't know about CBSE.

Obviously not in state board.

Yes CBSE and ICSE when I was studying- Not sure now. State board was trying to make Tamil as compulsory, even that was rejected. So on principle the state or center cannot impose an Indian language as compulsory- The choice should be of the public, on what they choose- just like (Tamil Medium school or English Medium school).

 

[padamchen]

Yes CBSE and ICSE when I was studying- Not sure now. State board was trying to make Tamil as compulsory, even that was rejected. So on principle the state or center cannot impose an Indian language as compulsory- The choice should be of the public, on what they choose- just like (Tamil Medium school or English Medium school).

I agree with you.

It's not fair for kids to keep away from ICSE just because of Hindi.

Hindi is enough till 7th or 8th std.

To develop a reading and speaking proficiency.

 

[ChennaiDude]

I agree with you.

It's not fair for kids to keep away from ICSE just because of Hindi.

Hindi is enough till 7th or 8th std.

To develop a reading and speaking proficiency.

Thank God- some sense prevailed and the recommendation was pulled back.

 

[Naofumi]

I think there is a little bit of wire-crossing here. My reading is that @jamahir is saying that we should not confuse literacy, or technical training and an attendant acquisition of working English, with proper learning and education. Somebody else made a punishing point to that effect; I will include that reference in a few minutes.

You seem to be saying that even then, with an increase in literacy, there is an inescapable exposure to modernisation. You have quoted social factors showing progress.

On this I have to take sides with Jamahir, because the greatest and swiftest acquisition of literacy and concomitant grasp of English has happened to those rural folks who flooded into the cities and, through literacy and technical training, gained jobs, economic security, and the confidence to assert their opinions as they are without modifying to suit the older norms that had prevailed.

We have a situation where these factors, literacy,English learning and job acquisition, bring considerable benefits to an individual, and these benefits get translated into political power; they also pull an individual out of the rural morass, and allow modern practices an opportunity to come into behaviour patterns. It is too early to tell, but perhaps it is a complex process taking place here - the journey of modernisation reinforcing older primitive habits and value systems on the one hand, and these primitive habits and value systems undergoing erosion and decay on the other. A short term process and a medium term one.

We have to hope hard and wait and see.

I was referring to education among Indian Muslims, @Joe Shearer has provided a good explanation.

Got some random thoughts on this post, here are my two cents.
On the first impression, this post gave me a smell of elitism, the thought "An educated idiot is still an idiot"; that new "elites" are naïve, conservative, uncultured and backward than older elite, hence there in lies the problem - the democratisation of thought to the masses will make regressive thoughts more mainstream and will even give the regressive ideologies a decent intellectual footing which may have been absent till that point whereas non-democratisation will keep the masses regressive in itself but an "enlightened elite" will rule over them with liberal ideals. But we should keep in mind that this democratisation is inevitable but will the result always be the same as discussed above is a matter of debate.
Let's take a step back and see; from Chinese post-Marxist fascists disillusioned with Marxism, finding an identity in borderline fascist Chinese nationalism (and to some extent the Singapore) to the secular Kemalist Turkey voting for Erdogan, Iranian revolution fueled and given an ideological footing by the likes of Ali Shariati (who unfortunately died at the backdrop of the revolution, may he rest in peace) to the election of our own PM Modi overthrew the 65+ years rule by "enlightened" Congress and left - a feature common in all of them is the same democratisation of thought which overthrew the old "enlightened elite' and bought a relatively conservative ideology at the forefront (in some cases it was the conscious decision of the elites themselves - China). It should be noted that the enlightenment that older elites was never indigenously developed (as many critics argued) but was adopted from the western thinkers in part of the awe of their material, industrial, social and scientific process, the older elite thought that applying the western principles over the indigenous people will inevitably result in progress the way it had in west also with the hope that as the elite will expand through materialistic development they newer ones too will accept their thinking.
Why the process did not saw the same in the west and Japan? Well, it did. I see twentieth century world wars as the direct result of this shift but the destruction caused them to realise the great dangers of that "inevitable" conservative shift and moved much more towards left both socially and economically. In short, a great backlash made the that shift a loathed period.
Now, coming back to Muslims, there's a certain kind of backlash already happened after the global jihad phenomenon and moreover in Indian context, there's more with the election of Modi and the onslaught of "regressive Islamic practices" in "intellectual" circles and media houses; it'll inevitably lead to a more conscious disassociating from those practices.

(Feeling lazy now, may add more later)

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

And that's how Hindi should be. A link language. Nothing more. Nothing less. We Indians are quite proficient in learning 3 languages so our native language, English and Hindi is fine enough.

Urdu not Hindi

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

Urdu not Hindi

For us, it's Hindi. I don't want to get into a language debate on the smallest of things.

 

[jamahir]

On the first impression, this post gave me a smell of elitism, the thought "An educated idiot is still an idiot"

But it is true.

that new "elites" are naïve, conservative, uncultured and backward than older elite

The young among the new elite may watch "modern", "liberating", sex-charged internet-streaming serials like "Fa se fantasy" but when it comes to voting in elections or posting on the internet their innate unenlightened self comes to fore.

It should be noted that the enlightenment that older elites was never indigenously developed (as many critics argued) but was adopted from the western thinkers in part of the awe of their material, industrial, social and scientific process

In the 1920s and succeeding decades many elites or intellectual were also inspired by an experiment in the East - that of the Russian Revolution. Bhagat Singh was one and I will quote from a thread of mine posted in 2015 :

A movement of Muslim farmers, peasants and petty-bourgeoisie in the Russian state of Tatartan opposed the Russian monarchy but was brutally crushed.

In the early 2oth century, the movement went underground and began working with communist, socialist and social democratic forces operating in Russia to overthrow the monarchy.

The leaders of the Muslim movement, that became to be known as the Waisi began explaining themselves as Islamic Socialists when a leftist revolution broke out against the Russian monarchy in 1906.

During the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution that finally toppled and eliminated the Russian monarchy and imposed communist rule in the country, the Waisi fell in with the Bolsheviks and supported Russian revolutionary leader, Vladimir Lenin’s widespread socialist program and policies.

However, after Lenin’s death in 1924, the Waisi began to assert that the Muslim community and its socialism in Tatartan were a separate entity from the Bolshevik communism.

The movement that had formed its own communes became a victim of Stalin’s radical purges of the 1930s and was wiped out.

One is not quite sure how the Waisi defined their socialism in a country where (after 1917) atheism had become the state-enforced creed. It was left to a group of influential thinkers and ideologues in South Asia and the Middle East to finally get down to giving a more coherent and doctrinal shape to Islamic Socialism.

Islamic scholar, Ubaidullah Sindhi, who was born into a Sikh family (in Sialkot but converted to Islam), was also an agitator against the British in India.

Chased by the authorities during the First World War, Sindhi escaped to Kabul, and from Kabul he traveled to Russia where he witnessed the unfolding of the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution.

He stayed in Russia till 1923 and spent most of his time discussing politics and ideology with communist revolutionaries and studying socialism.

Impressed by the chants of economic equality and justice during the violent revolution, Sindhi, who remained being a Deobandi Sunni Muslim, dismissed communism/Marxism’s emphasis on atheism.

From Russia Sindhi traveled to Turkey and it was from Istanbul that he began to give shape to his ideas of Islamic Socialism through a series of writings especially aimed at the Muslims of India.

He urged Muslims ‘to evolve for themselves a religious basis to arrive at the economic justice at which communism aims but which it cannot fully achieve.’

The reason he gave for this was that though he saw both Islamic and Communist economic philosophies similar regarding their emphasis on the fair distribution of wealth, socialism if imposed with the help of a more theistic and spiritual dimension would be more beneficial to the peasant and the working classes than atheistic communism.

During the same period (1920s-30s), another (though lesser known) Islamic scholar in undivided India got smitten by the 1917 Russian revolution and Marxism.

Hafiz Rahman Sihwarwl saw Islam and Marxism sharing five elements in common: (1) prohibition of the accumulation of wealth in the hands of the privileged classes (2) organisation of the economic structure of the state to ensure social welfare (3) equality of opportunity for all human beings (4) priority of collective social interest over individual privilege and (5) prevention of the permanentising of class structure through social revolution.

The motivations for many of these themes he drew from the Qur’an, which he understood as seeking to create an economic order in which the rich pay excessive, though voluntary taxes (Zakat) to minimise differences in living standards.

In the areas that Sihwarwl saw Islam and communism diverge were Islam’s sanction of private ownership within certain limits, and in its refusal to recognise an absolutely classless basis of society.

He suggested that Islam, with its prohibition of the accumulation of wealth, is able to control the class structure through equality of opportunity.

Basically, both Sindhi and Sihwarwl had stumbled upon an Islamic concept of the social democratic welfare state.

The new "educated" elite now is not conversant with these old events and ideas.