A Formidable Enemy-The ‘good’ Taliban join forces with the ‘bad’ Taliban

[LiberalPakistani]

^ Afghanistan is independent brother, but just the peace isn't there because of jerks like Mullah Omar and Baitullah Mehsud, who is also putting Pakistan in an bad situation.

self delete

 

[Watani]

^ Mullah Omar is taking a wrong route and that's the reason things won't go right. I won't say a word about Mehsud as he is using kids as five years old and train them as Jihadi's, he doesn't even deserve hatred. US might have good intentions but the NATO killing civilians over and over again for 'suspecting them to be Taliban' is getting a bit too much and too many lives are being lost thanks to that. Especially in Southern parts Pashtuns get killed daily.

 

[LiberalPakistani]

^ Mullah Omar is taking a wrong route and that's the reason things won't go right. I won't say a word about Mehsud as he is using kids as five years old and train them as Jihadi's, he doesn't even deserve hatred. US might have good intentions but the NATO killing civilians over and over again for 'suspecting them to be Taliban' is getting a bit too much and too many lives are being lost thanks to that. Especially in Southern parts Pashtuns get killed daily.

self delete

 

[Fracker]

I have a query, why US drone attack only attack "good" taliban, not "bad" taliban in waziristan? what they want to achieve from this?

This treaty were only disrated when reports came that drone planes fly's from pakistani territory. If US is so honest with us, they he could give us this drone technology. The results would be much better then now. Now if army move in, then obviously they will loss more then what they lost in Swat. Also there is possibilities that other powers like BLA, MQM etc also comes up. This game has no solution, since we have "friends" who are worst then "enemies".

PS: i am not doubting on capabilities of pak army, and i know we will win in the end. BUT on what cost?

 

[S-2]

"Mullah Omar is much different and very brave Pashtun who is trying to free Afgan's from invaders"

B.S. He's the defeated leader of an afghan taliban government that resides on Pakistani soil.

How "brave" are his men that "resist" the "invader" by targeting afghan schoolgirls with acid spraying? How come the "good" taliban use suicide bombers, grenades, and mortars in markets and IEDs that target civilians in Afghanistan?

UN Report: Civilian Casualties Hit Record High In Afghan Conflict-CNN Feb. 2009-

"Militants were responsible for 55 percent of the deaths, but an additional 39 percent of the victims were killed by coalition and Afghan forces, said the report by the U.N. Assistance Mission in Afghanistan...

...Insurgents killed 1,160 civilians. Most died as a result of suicide-bombings or roadside blasts in crowded areas. The majority of the casualties took place in the south of the country, which saw heavy fighting in several provinces."

Why have the taliban killed more afghans than ISAF? To cause these casualties, the militants CHOOSE to make your brother muslims bleed.

 

[Fracker]

B.S. He's the defeated leader of an afghan taliban government that resides on Pakistani soil.

This doesn't rule out that he is brave, and trying to free up afghanistan out of invadation of USA.

How "brave" are his men that "resist" the "invader" by targeting afghan schoolgirls with acid spraying? How come the "good" taliban use suicide bombers, grenades, and mortars in markets and IEDs that target civilians in Afghanistan?

Bloody crap, you expect western to be good with taliban's image? Those who implement peace in afghanistan will kill normal civilians. The people who re-open Kabul medical college (men & women) will throw acid spray on the school girls? western propaganda to defame Afghan taliban. Interestingly terrorism increase after USA came to this region clearly shows who is the evil. Taliban were there for 15 yrs.

Why have the taliban killed more afghans than ISAF? To cause these casualties, the militants CHOOSE to make your brother muslims bleed.

This is also CRAP as previous. If USA didn't invade Afghanistan (after performing drama of 9/11) on the 1st time, nothing would happen. no million people dies. no terrorism nothing.. Biggest terrorist USA has just destroyed the peace of south asia and middle east.

 

[Elmo]

chill Elmo aka Nadja!!!

@ Fracker:
I have a query, why US drone attack only attack "good" taliban, not "bad" taliban in waziristan? what they want to achieve from this?

Firstly, how do you define/differentiate "good" Taliban from "bad" Taliban? Also why do you support the Taliban... I would like to know that as well.


This treaty were only disrated when reports came that drone planes fly's from pakistani territory. If US is so honest with us, they he could give us this drone technology. The results would be much better then now.


Most of the drone attacks come after intelligence has been sent from officers on ground about possible hideouts/presence of the Taliban. The results will only improve when the ground network improves.

By the way, the US is not obliged for honesty... it, like any other nation, keeps itself as the top priority and its security comes first and foremost.

Now if army move in, then obviously they will loss more then what they lost in Swat. Also there is possibilities that other powers like BLA, MQM etc also comes up. This game has no solution, since we have "friends" who are worst then "enemies".

Where are you moving the army — FATA or Afghanistan? The army has had a presence in the tribal areas for some time.

Also BLA and MQM have no support base in these regions, where are they coming up?

You are unclear in expressing yourself.

PS: i am not doubting on capabilities of pak army, and i know we will win in the end. BUT on what cost?

There is no harm in doubting anyone's capabilities as well as it is analytical and you have the right perspective. Armies win wars and lose wars, it's part and parcel of the package. Only by analysing and learning from one's mistakes does one move forward.

This doesn't rule out that he is brave, and trying to free up afghanistan out of invadation of USA.

So you support Mullah Omar?

Bloody crap, you expect western to be good with taliban's image? Those who implement peace in afghanistan will kill normal civilians. The people who re-open Kabul medical college (men & women) will throw acid spray on the school girls? western propaganda to defame Afghan taliban. Interestingly terrorism increase after USA came to this region clearly shows who is the evil. Taliban were there for 15 yrs.


Afghanistan has been mismanaged by the US but you have examples of Basra in Iraq, which has not been.
Yes, the crime rate apparently during the Taliban went down but what went up were the human rights violations. women were not allowed to study or earn a living, they couldn't move freely, people of other religions were taxed heavily... the list is long. Crime cannot be the only parameter of judging one's prudence.
Also propaganda is a tool available and employed by the Americans as well as the Taliban. At the end of the day, you have to weigh the pros and cons and decide what's best for you.


P.S.: You need to be a bit more clear in your writing...

 

[Fracker]

Firstly, how do you define/differentiate "good" Taliban from "bad" Taliban? Also why do you support the Taliban... I would like to know that as well.

My 1st post in this forum http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/28710-how-islamicised-pakistan-army-12.html#post411441

By the way, the US is not obliged for honesty... it, like any other nation, keeps itself as the top priority and its security comes first and foremost.

So attacking only those people with whome we had peace agreement. Yet till today no attacked happened on "Baitullah Masoud". Hey isn't baitullah masoud were send to gutamabay, & this could be the reason that he came back with the cash ($$$), since he was only the security risk Pakistan, not USA.

Where are you moving the army — FATA or Afghanistan? The army has had a presence in the tribal areas for some time.

List down warlord of waziristan, and warlords of swat (who are with TTP)

Also BLA and MQM have no support base in these regions, where are they coming up?

This is called opening up different fronts. when you are getting defeat at one front.

Ps: CIA, RAW all supporting TTP, BLA, and i doubt MQM as well..

So you support Mullah Omar?

still having any doubt???


Bloody crap, you expect western to be good with taliban's image? Those who implement peace in afghanistan will kill normal civilians. The people who re-open Kabul medical college (men & women) will throw acid spray on the school girls? western propaganda to defame Afghan taliban. Interestingly terrorism increase after USA came to this region clearly shows who is the evil. Taliban were there for 15 yrs.

Afghanistan has been mismanaged by the US but you have examples of Basra in Iraq, which has not been.

What about other parts of the iraq? aah yess, oil reserves closed to basra will be bigger then baghdad or other areas of iraq. RIGHT?

Yes, the crime rate apparently during the Taliban went down

Atleast you acknowledge something!!

but what went up were the human rights violations. women were not allowed to study or earn a living, they couldn't move freely,

yeah yeah right.. are you going to post the video where prostitutes were killed by taliban after 3rd warning & 6 months time??? Just for your information, my cousin were doing MD from kabul university when USSR invade, and he left back for pakistan. then when taliban restore the government they reopen that university, and my cousin went back complete his MD. And female students also were studying in other section.. Howsthat with your western propaganda?

people of other religions were taxed heavily...

hain? when did that happen???? there was absolutely no xtra taxes at all.. only those who were still doing opium business get plenty (but crops didn't destroied, crops only destroied in 2000-01).

the list is long. Crime cannot be the only parameter of judging one's prudence.

go on... i can take anything from an anti-talib!! after all i had many friends (afghan pashtoons) with whom i spoken about Taliban.& they all termed taliban as less bad as compare to hamad shah masoud, north alience or other farsi ban warlords.

Ps: I am pretty clear, if you don't rearrange my lines while reading you wont have much difficulty.

 

[waraich66]

"The Pakistan army cannot escape doing what it must do."

Let's hope that someday includes a visit to Quetta.

Quetta is most un safe place , no high mountains and caves.

Are you pointing towards Quetta Shourah?

 

[S-2]

"Are you pointing towards Quetta Shourah?"

Yes.

 

[DarkStar]

The Quetta Shura?

How to get rid of this modern day myth from people's minds.

Seems if a lie is repeated often, it is taken as truth.

 

[waraich66]

"Are you pointing towards Quetta Shourah?"

Yes.

S2,

In general, sourah consist of three or four members , it is not like assembly members range from 100 to 300 based on population, because numbers are not important in islam.


Similarly Chechin fighters also have shourah?

It is true that shourah takes decisions but practically dont any participation in daily operations, area cammanders normally control operations in Afghanistan.

So US should not be afraid of Quetta Shourah.

---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:16 PM ----------

The Quetta Shura?

How to get rid of this modern day myth from people's minds.

Seems if a lie is repeated often, it is taken as truth.

Dark Star,

S2 is right, Mullah Omer has zero value in front of shourah .

 

[S-2]

"Seems if a lie is repeated often, it is taken as truth."

Then you characterize Omar and his senior operating group as being somewhere other than the Quetta area?

Do you have access to intelligence that suggests this? If not, why are you so adamant in your rejection of this location?

'Terror Is Our Enemy, Not India'- Der Spiegel

"Pasha is apparently adept at overcoming old divisions. However, it is worth listening closely when the general explains why he too is unwilling to apprehend the Taliban leadership, even though many claim that Taliban leader Mullah Omar, for example, is in Quetta, a city where Pasha lived until a few years ago. "Shouldn't they be allowed to think and say what they please? They believe that jihad is their obligation. Isn't that freedom of opinion?" he asks, defending extremist rabble-rousers, who are sending more and more Koran school students to Afghanistan to fight in the war there.

Such words from Pasha arouse the old suspicion that the ISI is playing a double game."

I don't know if you'll be again playing "a double game", but it matters less where in Pakistan Omar specifically resides than that it's somewhere in Pakistan. Perhaps, Dark Star, you wish to deny that the key senior leadership is sequestered safely in Pakistan altogether?

You may be correct, if so, but until proven you'll be a minority opinion.

Here's Peter Bergen from 2006-

"Amir Haqqani, the leader of the Taliban in Zabul province, 'never comes across the border' from Pakistan into Afghanistan, Sturek told me. The Taliban's most important leadership council, the Quetta Shura, is based in the capital of Pakistan's Baluchistan province; the Peshawar Shura is headquartered in Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province. In addition, Hekmatyar operates in the tribal areas of Dir and Bajur; Haqqani is based in Waziristan; and al-Qaeda has a presence in Waziristan and Chitral -- all Pakistani regions that border Afghanistan."

The Taliban- Regrouped And Rearmed- Peter Bergen 10 September 2006

My favorite article is by Elizabeth Rubin of the NYT. Her work is uniformly excellent-

In The Land Of The Taliban- NYT Oct. 22, 2006

Here's something more recent from Robert Gates as reported by DAWN-

Taliban 'Quetta Shura' New U.S. Headache: Gates Against Strikes In Baluchistan- DAWN 20 May 2009

"Mr Gates said: 'We all have a concern about the Quetta shura and the activities of the Taliban in that area.'”

Is he a liar? Lies are deliberate falsehoods. Few seem to think Gates peddles falsehoods or that he doesn't weigh his words carefully. I'd presume that he's better informed than you but...perhaps not.

What might you offer which is more compelling than Bergen, Rubin's, and (most of all) SECDEF Gates' very recent words?

 

[S-2]

"In general, sourah consist of three or four members , it is not like assembly members range from 100 to 300 based on population, because numbers are not important in islam."

There is also talk of a Peshawar "shura". I think that the term has been somewhat perverted from it's historical usage. I believe that we can therefore use it interchangably with a "command council" of key associates.

"Similarly Chechin fighters also have shourah?"

No doubt so in Chechnya. Under this new lexicon, I suppose anybody can have a "shura". What's important here, though, is that the Quetta shura appears to act as a command council for those taliban who operate in southern Afghanistan.

"It is true that shourah takes decisions but practically dont any participation in daily operations, area cammanders normally control operations in Afghanistan.

So US should not be afraid of Quetta Shourah."

They coordinate the medical needs of those wounded in battle. They likely serve as distributors of cash from Saudi/Gulf donors and opium proceeds as well as weapons and other supplies. They likely plan and execute strategies and supporting operational objectives. Finally, they act as the face and voice of the Afghan taliban and represent an opposing national government in exile.

Afghanistan has no more to fear from these men rumored in Quetta than Pakistan does from the likes of Mehsud and Faizullah. They are cut from the same cloth and intend the same vision. As such, if Mehsud is an issue for Pakistan then Pakistanis must appreciate that so too is Omar, Nazir, Bahadur, OBL, Haqqani, and Hekmatyar viewed as threats by most afghans.

Perhaps none of these men reside in FATA nor Baluchistan. You'll know more when your army finally enters all these areas. I'll look forward to such someday.

 

[waraich66]

"In general, sourah consist of three or four members , it is not like assembly members range from 100 to 300 based on population, because numbers are not important in islam."

There is also talk of a Peshawar "shura". I think that the term has been somewhat perverted from it's historical usage. I believe that we can therefore use it interchangably with a "command council" of key associates.

"Similarly Chechin fighters also have shourah?"

No doubt so in Chechnya. Under this new lexicon, I suppose anybody can have a "shura". What's important here, though, is that the Quetta shura appears to act as a command council for those taliban who operate in southern Afghanistan.

"It is true that shourah takes decisions but practically dont any participation in daily operations, area cammanders normally control operations in Afghanistan.

So US should not be afraid of Quetta Shourah."

They coordinate the medical needs of those wounded in battle. They likely serve as distributors of cash from Saudi/Gulf donors and opium proceeds as well as weapons and other supplies. They likely plan and execute strategies and supporting operational objectives. Finally, they act as the face and voice of the Afghan taliban and represent an opposing national government in exile.

Afghanistan has no more to fear from these men rumored in Quetta than Pakistan does from the likes of Mehsud and Faizullah. They are cut from the same cloth and intend the same vision. As such, if Mehsud is an issue for Pakistan then Pakistanis must appreciate that so too is Omar, Nazir, Bahadur, OBL, Haqqani, and Hekmatyar viewed as threats by most afghans.

Perhaps none of these men reside in FATA nor Baluchistan. You'll know more when your army finally enters all these areas. I'll look forward to such someday.

Shaurah is active from last seven years and not residing inside Balouchistan or FATA, it is mobile shourah ,even talaban may dont have idea who is member of shaurah and where it is residing.

PA could not locate famous talaban shourah because maintain any intelligence network in Balouchistan and FATA is impossible.

Better Obama regime talk to shaurah and resolve the conflict through dialoque, there is no end of this war.

Why US is reluctant to accept the peace deal demands of Talaban?