A deal on Kashmir is both easy and impossible

[dabong1]

Honestly Dabong,
Except for those RSS freaks, No one wants India to have anything to do with Pakistan.

The RSS are a part of the BJP which was is power.

 

[Contrarian]

You forget that it was the aim of indian from day one to finish pakistan and absorb it into the indian union.
The indians are the agressors but have so far failed in there attempts to finish pakistan.
Know with the nukes i think finally india has accepted pakistan.

You just dont get it do you? India's aim was never to finish Pakistan, neither do they want any 'Akhand Bharat'. They just want to be far far from Pakistan as they are sick and tired of it. India has not initiated wars against Pakistan, it is always Pakistan which tries to attack India. India never even bought more modern weapons until Pakistan acquired them, as the money was needed badly elsewhere vis-a-vis its social welfare programs, economy, education, etc,etc. Only now are they changing that.

with or without nukes, India has always accepted Pakistan's existance. Get that through your head. Its just that everyone in Pakistan thinks that now that Pakistan has nukes, it can destroy India. I hope you are not harbouring hte same delusions.

Yeah and the chinese missiles are of russian origin which in turn are of german orgin.

Right...we are not debating history. When i say they are of Chinese origin or N.K origin, i mean they are COPIES of the Chinese/North Korean VERSIONS of the missiles originally invented by Germany. Clearer?? The Shaheen i think(i forge the name) is a copy of the No-Dong missile for eg.

None of the three major military projects india has tried to take on have been completed on time or without huge cost-overruns. These include the development of a Main Battle Tank (MBT), a nuclear power plant for a submarine, and an advanced Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), all involving expenditures of hundreds of millions of dollars.

LCA=Induction by 2010.
N-LCA(Naval version) will be used on the Indian Aircraft Carrier(IAC) which is the third Aircraft Carrier of the IN, already under construction, expected to join by 2012.
Arjun MBT-124 tanks to be inducted. Def Min has already said.
ATV(nuke sub)= Reactor complete, is critical.

The MBT project was launched in 1974. But the tank has failed to meet service requirement tests. It is reportedly too heavy and undependable to be used in combat operations. The Indian Army prefers imported Russian tanks over the indigenous MBTs and says it will use the MBTs for training, not operations.

Arjun has already been ordered to be inducted in the Army, 124 tanks are being inducted initially, as there is no more capacity in Avadi factories and the Army wants time to adapt to the new type of machine. Understand that Arjun is on a different concept than the AK which again i will add is Chinese with minor Pakistani systems and touted as indegenous.

The nuclear submarine project, launched 31 years ago, is not yet finished despite the almost $1 billion spent on it.

The ATV's mini nuclear reactor has already gone critical. Its a success, it is working well. The IN has said in media reports, that the country can now build its own nuclear subs, but they are of strategic nature and thus the govt has to decide whether to manufacture them now or not. ITs a huge breakthrough in Indian engineering. The mini reactor was made in India completely.

The LCA project, launched in 1983, is still in the doldrums: the DRDO has failed to develop the right engine for it. Even with an imported engine, the plane is unlikely to enter service anytime soon.

India is making those technology herself btw, getting foreign help at places which are proving too difficult. When it undertook the taask, it did not have the manpower or the infrastructure. I dont think tht is the case anymore.
LCA when you hear the specs will be frightened. Its an awsome plane. It will be inducted before 2010. If you hear the specs you will be amazed, India has developed on its own, systems that Pakistan does not even have on its imported planes.

No the fence is not on indian territory the fence is on kashmiri territory.
Off course the indians are going to shell the pakistanis in response but only along the LOC.

You shell in India, India would shell Pakistan, loc or no loc.

Compare Artillary systems all day long for all i care but the only thing that counts is that the fence is destroyed in certain parts so that the fighters can cross over.

You cannot just dismiss teh arty systems, its very very important, India has much superior artillary. Along with MBRL's like Smerch already acquired. And with army having just conducted the tests for the new tender for new and improved arty systems. Bofors has won, it is owned by BAe. Previously owned by a Swedish company.It beat out the Israeli Soltam systems.

This report is from 1999 nearly 7 years ago,what type of tech do you think they have now in 2006?

As of 1999, the major militant organizations fighting in Kashmir included the Hizb-ul Mujahidin, Harakat-ul Ansar and Lashgar-i Toiba. The latter two, in particular, are reported to include a large number of non-Kashmiris. Most of these groups support accession to Pakistan. The Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF), the organization that spearheaded the movement for an independent Kashmir, declared a cease-fire in 1994. All groups have reportedly received arms and training from Pakistan. The weapons they have used include AK-47 and AK-56 assault rifles, light machine guns, revolvers, and landmines. The militants are also reported to have sophisticated night-vision and wireless communication equipment. Officially, the Pakistani government has denied involvement in arming and training Kashmiri militants, but the claim is generally not considered credible.

Reported to have. India has captured countless terrorists and killed countless more and none of them had any.So i think its safe to say that they dont have any sphisticated devices. They do however have satellite fones. But nothing other than that. Night vision/Thermal devices are a far cry for them.

I hope your still laughing.

I am.

Good for you but my point is about kashmir and the world wanting a UN solution to the issue.

Who says the 'world' wants a soln to Kashmir. They want a solution that it remains with India. Which country has put pressure on INDIA to solve the Kashmir problem, its always on Pakistan. Musharraf constantly going in various countries and harping on Kashmir and STILL no effect.

Okay we had better planes what about everything else.

What do you want to know? Apart from better planes, better radars, better communication equipments, better amenities for the Army, like Glassfibre tents. etc. etc. etc all from the US. India till quite recently used ot have primitive systems compared ot Pakistan for its Mlitary Forces. Now however as the govt has money, they are agressively buying and modernizing the armed forces, buying planes unilaterally, introducing new technologies.

Wake up..... the indian army is not a bunch of peacekeepers.
How the hell would japan defeat india?

Dude, that is why i said for JAPAN, only the Japanese Navy and IN. The Jap Navy would destroy the IN. How the hell does army come in between??
Pakistan is a smaller country, tht is not an excuse for not winning any wars if you initiate them.

The americans other then there bomber planes are rubbish.They can not defeat the 20,000 iraqis freedom fighters but there going to defeat india?

Please dont say these childish things used to boost morale. Who says that Americans cannot fight as well as any other countries citizens. The only thing is that the Americans never fight for their homeland, so the generals cannot rely on soldiers will power, etc, etc to fight better, so it is better to fight from a position of advantage. When you take the war to them, they will fight just as fiercely. They would be just as patriotic.

You are right the military should not the country.

Military shud not the country??

I think it had more to do with the indians thinking the pakistanis where a pushover and then using the excuse of the pakistanis had better weapons.

No its not an excuse, its a fact. That fact has nowever become history. And i am willing to debate on anything whether it be fighter planes or MBT's. India now has the qualitative edge it never had.

 

[Contrarian]

The RSS are a part of the BJP which was is power.

Wrong. RSS is not a part of BJP. They are very close and you might say ideologially very close, but BJP is a national party, it thus has to maintain its distance. These are very different. RSS was never in power.

 

[Neo]

India's turn to respond to Pakistan's Kashmir proposals: Maleeha Lodhi

Tuesday January 23, 2007

London, Jan.23 (ANI): Pakistan's envoy to Britain Dr. Maleeha Lodhi has told a student forum at Warwick University that the ball is now in Delhi's court to respond to Islamabad's various ideas and proposals on Kashmir.

The largely attended event at the university to mark 60 years of independence of Pakistan and India was also addressed by Senator Mushahid Hussain, MNA Aitzaz Ahsan, India's acting High Commissioner Ashok Kumar Mukherjee and Sachin Pilot, member of India's Lok Sabha.

In her presentation Dr. Lodhi highlighted the reforms and changes effected in Pakistan in the past seven years, which she described as a strategic economic and political transition to establishing firm foundations for stability and economic growth and revival.

On the current state of play in relations between Pakistan and India, Lodhi said the present political environment reflected a moment of hope, expectation and opportunity in South Asia. From the depths of confrontation and crises, the two South Asian neighbours have been able to break from this past and take a series of confidence-building measures to normalize relations. The context in which the two countries conduct their relations has been significantly transformed. Dr. Lodhi identified five features of this transformative process which included the popular sentiment for peace and normalization that now underpinned the dialogue between the two countries. The recognition that relations have to be carefully managed in a nuclearized environment was another element of what Dr. Lodhi called the "new environment". She said that the lesson of the past 60 years was that there is no military solution to disputes and military might or sabre rattling of the kind witnessed during the 2001-2002 military standoff between the two countries, cannot resolve any issue.

She said Pakistan and India had made considerable progress in agreeing, adopting and implementing confidence building measures but the challenge of conflict resolution still lay ahead.

Without forward moment on substance, the peace process risked running out of steam, The Nation quoted her as saying.

To make the peace process sustainable and durable, headway is needed to resolve the core issue of Kashmir. Dr. Lodhi stressed that the ultimate success or failure of the efforts towards peace will be determined by the ability, creativity and flexibility the two sides show to address the aspirations of the people of Kashmir.

Lasting peace, Dr. Lodhi stressed comes when it is predicated on justice. A just solution of Kashmir she concluded, was the dictum of common sense, not dogma.

A lively question-answer session followed in the University's main auditorium, in which students enthusiastically participated.

Speaking at the occation, Pakistan's prominent politician Senator Mushahid Hussain Syed said that the formation of Pakistan was right and justified if seen it with the perspcetive of the historical background prevailing at that time. It exists on record that till 1946, Muslim League had accepted the formula of staying within the United India under the leadership of Muhammad Ali Jinah with the condition of protection of the rigths of Muslims. But, it was Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru who rejected the cabinet plan. Compelled with it, Muslim League had to demand for a separate nation. And this is how Pakistan was born.

"We have witnessed bitter exchanges between the two coutnries during last sixty years, fought three wars, but, the basic issue all the while was the Kashmir issue, which still needs to be resolved. Although, we have taken attempts to restore trust and confidence among each other. But, until and unless the Kashmir issue is resolved as per the aspirations and conditions of Kashmiris, no sound relations can be established between the two countries," Hussain said.

Syed further informed the audience about Pakistan's progress during the last 60 years.

"There was a time when Paksitan had no colour television sets, is today having endless news channel of its own. He said it was due to the achievement on the part of the late Prime Minsiter Zulfikhar Ali Bhutto who made Pakistan an atomic power. And, hence, both India and Pakistan know it very well that war is no solution to the solution of problems but bilateral talks is the only way out to resolve issues. For this, politicians from both sides need to sit and sort it out," he added.

He said time has come when both the countries must accept each other's entity and look forward to work for making them strong and peaceful nations. Syed also reiterated that the movement of Kashmiris was not the militancy but it was a freedom struggle of the people of Kashmir who have been struggling since they did not get their due rights yet.

Pilot said that India is a country of over one crore people. Where hundreds of languages are spoken and claimed that people belonging to different cultures and beliefs lived with harmony and peace together. He said India is a very big democratic country. Where people get equal rights and opportunities. He emphasised that our coutnry has a Muslim President and a Sikh Prime Minister. He pointed out that Muslims are found performign distinctive tasks in various spheres of life.

He also made his point saying that it was fortunate that at a time when Mulims are associated with international terrorism elsewhere no Muslim name has been slated so far in such a list. He said India is undoubtedly a democratic country but we never intend to export our democracy to other country. We are aware of the fact that each country is run on the basis of the situations present there and the systems prevailing there.

Referring to the issue of Kashmir, Pilot said the Kashmir issue is equally important to India as it was to Pakistan. He said the Hurriyat Conference should have particiapted in the process of elections.

India's acting High Commissioner Ashok Kumar Mukherjee applauded the ongoing peace process between the two countries. He hoped that both coutnreis would work together to improve and strengthen the business and trade relationship and develop tourism scales too. This, he said will reduce the bitter experiences and memories of the past and would enhance confidence between one another.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/070123/139/6bf9u.html

 

[Adux]

The RSS are a part of the BJP which was is power.

Shows your knowledge

 

[vnomad]

London, Jan.23 (ANI): Pakistan's envoy to Britain Dr. Maleeha Lodhi has told a student forum at Warwick University that the ball is now in Delhi's court to respond to Islamabad's various ideas and proposals on Kashmir.

No it isn't. India's position is pretty reasonable. Until the proposals are made officially through diplomatic channels, instead of an interview with a news channel, India cannot respond.

 

[Bull]

Like you always have but it got you nothing..

We got bangladesh!!!

Al qeada tried killing mushy not the kashmiri/afghan freedom fighters..

Is aid they are killing soldiers not mushraff, read what i wrote more carefully.

If he had failed is country or does fail his country the people of iran would vote him out..

They get that chance every 5 years, not everyday.There is no free press so how do you expect to bring Ahmedinjad under pressure.

Unless pakistan felt suicidal and took everybody out with nuclear weapons..

Who is everybody?

Ukraine supplies the engines but where does the rest of the tank come from?.

You say, from where T-80 came from.

I bet you have never been to pakistan but base your assumptions on newspaper articles..

No i have not. Have you been to India? What are you basing your assumptions on?

Pakistan is left wing in thoughts and actions the only time there is any right wing reaction it has something to with india

Giving help to the freedom fighters of kashmir/afghanistan is not right wing unless your indian or american.

First decide what you want to write and then do it.

 

[vnomad]

You forget that it was the aim of indian from day one to finish pakistan and absorb it into the indian union.
The indians are the agressors but have so far failed in there attempts to finish pakistan.
Know with the nukes i think finally india has accepted pakistan.

:wall: Read my lips. An independent Pakistan is more than acceptable to India.

None of the three major military projects india has tried to take on have been completed on time or without huge cost-overruns. These include the development of a Main Battle Tank (MBT), a nuclear power plant for a submarine, and an advanced Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), all involving expenditures of hundreds of millions of dollars.

The huge cost overruns aren't all that huge. The West and Russia has spent several times what India spent on these projects. The DRDO's cost effectiveness is unparalleled in the world.

The MBT project was launched in 1974. But the tank has failed to meet service requirement tests. It is reportedly too heavy and undependable to be used in combat operations.

There is no such thing as too heavy to be used in combat. And the Arjun is finally in service.

The Indian Army prefers imported Russian tanks over the indigenous MBTs and says it will use the MBTs for training, not operations.

The level of training required to operate is far more than that needed for the T-90. An 'anonymous' source making this claim, doesn't make the claim an authentic one.

The LCA project, launched in 1983, is still in the doldrums: the DRDO has failed to develop the right engine for it. Even with an imported engine, the plane is unlikely to enter service anytime soon.

The LCA will enter service along with the JF-17. Probably earlier if India is able to effectively block engines from Russia. Don't be fooled by Chinese claims that the indigenous engine is just around the corner. If it was then the RD-93 wouldn't be required at all. Not only does the Chinese engine need to complete testing, it has to enter production. Assembly lines have to be built from scratch. All that takes time.

No the fence is not on indian territory the fence is on kashmiri territory.

Nobody is interested in questioning the morality of such a move. Just its practicality. The Indian retaliation might not matter to you personally but then its not your *** on line. Those who are on the receiving end of the Bofors and Smerch might disagree with you.

Off course the indians are going to shell the pakistanis in response but only along the LOC.

Only along hundreds of kilometers of the boundary. Every artillery regiment in the from Jammu to Rajouri, Poonch, Kupwara, Baramulla, Kargil upto Leh will be delivering HE across the LoC.

Compare Artillary systems all day long for all i care but the only thing that counts is that the fence is destroyed in certain parts so that the fighters can cross over.

The certain parts can be repaired just as easily as they were built. And don't give me any garbage about fighter sneaking across before the gaps are repaired. The IA is there to monitoring the gaps with an enhanced surveillance ability.

This report is from 1999 nearly 7 years ago,what type of tech do you think they have now in 2006?

The same as they had back then. Except for better IEDs and communications. The NV equipment and thermal imagers are something that the militants still can't afford.

The americans other then there bomber planes are rubbish.They can not defeat the 20,000 iraqis freedom fighters but there going to defeat india?

The IA's job is clear cut. Seal the LoC. The SOG and RR also have intel much superior to what the American's have in Iraq. The situation is not comparable. The Americans incidently have the best fighter jets, best subs, best AC, best destroyers, best UAVs, and best of everyelse in addition to their bombers. Any army in their place would have fared just as badly or maybe worse.

I think it had more to do with the indians thinking the pakistanis where a pushover and then using the excuse of the pakistanis had better weapons.

Victory never requires excuses.

 

[Contrarian]

Victory never requires excuses.

Bravo!
I will remember this line.

 

[Aryan]

Kashmir is not India, so any peace agreement acknowledging Indian sovereignty to over any region of Kashmir, even Jammu, is a denial of a fundamental truth.

Musharraf's offer of "peace" is a betrayal of the sacrifices made to liberate Kashmir both by the people of Pakistan and Kashmir, and it runs against what Pakistan stands for. If it ever became Pakistani policy to ignore Kashmir, Pakistan would lose sovereignty over the regions of Kashmir it controls.

"We shall have India divided or we shall have India destroyed" - Quaid-e-Azam

 

[Neo]

Glad to have you back Aryan!

 

[Aryan]

The pleasure's all mine

 

[Contrarian]

"We shall have India divided or we shall have India destroyed" - Quaid-e-Azam

Yeah well, pretty sad the 'Quaid-e-Azam' was not there to see Pakistan divided and almost destroyed.

 

[aviator]

The 1962 Sino-Indian war had a substantial impact on the Kashmir issue. The US and Britain had helped restrain Ayub Khan from opening up the Kashmir front, while the Indian army was taking a beating in the Himalayas. However, after the cease-fire and the unexpected Chinese withdrawal, there was Anglo-American pressure on Nehru to settle the Kashmir problem with Pakistan.

A long round of talks between India and Pakistan began in December 1962 in Rawalpindi, Delhi, Karachi, and Calcutta and lasted until March 1963. India was willing to offer Pakistan 1500 square miles more than they already held, provided Pakistan accepted the new lines as an international boundary. However, just a day before the talks with India were to open, the Pakistani regime announced a provisional boundary agreement with China, handing over a huge and barren but strategic chunk of Kashmir to China. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, the then Pakistani Foreign Minister told Indian diplomats during an informal chat,

“You are a defeated nation, don't you see?” 10

The “historic peace talks” collapsed.

http://www.marxist.com/kashmirs-ordeal-chapter-five.htm

Non-Indian source

Its weird that instead of gaining 1500 sq mi area of kashmir and settling the issue , pakistan gave abt 2000 sq mi to china

 

[Contrarian]

Its weird that instead of gaining 1500 sq mi area of kashmir and settling the issue , pakistan gave abt 2000 sq mi to china

Pakistan thinks of Kashmir as their property by right. Why would they give their land to China, its probably because they wanted to cosy up to China?

Anywho that was then, this is now: Not an inch of land will be given.