A deal on Kashmir is both easy and impossible

[Contrarian]

And the freedom fighters will kill more of the india occupation army.

Read the stats, they have killed MANY MANY more civilians compared to the the army. That is why the local people no longer support militants like they used to. Infact they have started helping IA more and more in that area, reporting any suspicious persons, etc.

Hopefully you can pass the info on to the indian govt next time they accuse pakistan of "cross border terrorism"

Cross border terrorism has declined, mainly because of Indian efforts in manning the border. That does not mean Pakistan has stopped it. If there is a bomb blast, most likely it has a Pakistani connection. I will cede that Pakistan has had to slow this down also, becaues of world pressure, etc, etc, etc.

Which group did Musharraf give the most credit and money to during the earthquake?......was it not Laskar e Taiba renamed Jama'at ud Dawa.
Tliban stronghold in quetta and what has america done...nothing.

How do you know? America has broken the world terrorism networks back, from supply lines, to money transfers , etc, etc. And he was condemned for doing it, rightly so. Who says Musharraf does not smpathise with thesegroups, but he cant support them like he used to cuz of world opnion, that in itself is a major improvement for India.

Musharaff publicly deny any support to the freedom fight in kashmir or afghanistan but in reality retraining and rearmimg is taking place with the emphasis on new guerilla tactics and technolgy.

I think he cannot do it , because of Afghanistan constantly naming him as the creator or problems, and US keepign a watch on Pakistan.

Iran and pakistan are not iraq which after 10 years of UN sanction was weakened.
The american can attack iran and pakistan with conventional methods and send both countries back 20 years.
Pakistan or iran can not defeat america outright but can damage american intrests worlwide.

What interests can Pakistan harm? I mean apart from small things, what really can Pakistan do? It cant use nukes on any US site or base, cuz then US would destroy Pakistan. All Pakistan can do is rain Mujahiden etc. Its pretty common now.

Yes UN sanctions are very effective if there is UN unity on the issue but my point was that american sanctions on pakistan have actually been a positive thing forcing pakistan to become self sufficent in the weapons arena

When did Pakistan become self sufficient in weapon arens? Last i checked, everything in Pakistani miiltary arsenal is from China or US. The stuff from China is renamed and callde indigenous, from JF-17 to Ak-Khalid to missiles to whatever. Pakistan is very very far from being self-sufficient in weapons arena. It means making everything on your own.

The only thing the world recognised after 9/11 was the human rights abuses carried out by the indian regime in kashmir.

Correction!!! The world recognized for the FIRST time, the threat of terrorism and what India had been facing since a long time. And they appreciated India for fighting it, and they supported India. It got India and US in this honeymoon now, and it resulted in the world making sure that Pakistan renounces its terrorists,etc, etc, etc. 9/11 has been a boon for India. And in some aspects for Pakistan also, as it gave Pakistan money and weapons.

Sorry to be the one to tell you but the world still does not give serious thought to indian claims about kashmir.

Says who, read the EU report on Kashmir. The world supports us everywhere, because 'Pakistan is the sponsor of terrorism'. The world knows and recognises it.

The training camps are still there in AKJ but a bit more discreet.

Yeah they are there, but far less in number and much more vulnerable, operating in below par efficiency. Terrorists no longer have the free run they used to. Their supplies are blocked, the'r funding is blocked, they'r recruitment is blocked, etc, etc.

One of the reasons india never defeats pakistan is the indian army assumption that it is going to be a long drawn out war.

Yes i agree with you to the fulles extent. And that is why the new doctrines of IA, IN and IAF. Cold start ,etc, etc. Going netcentric so as to convert the numbers into advantage in a short time, reducing sensor to shooter time. You know the Indian Armed Forces, have overhauled themselves finally to recognise the world realities. That is why i said, in the future, Indian military will win because they are changing their doctrine, to neutralise Pakistan's edge. There was an excellent artice on how India's military capability wrt Pakistan will increase in the future. That India's numbers have never effectively contributed to it getting a decisive victory on the battlefront. That that is going to change, with the new efforts and realignement of the IA,IN, and IAF.

The most important things in war is the willingness to die,the tactics and strategy involved and the weapons that you use.

Do you think Indian's are not willing to die for their country? If you think so then you are very sadly mistaken. In any case, its not about dying yourselves, its about making the other dude die!
About the weapons, no longer does Pakistan enjoy technologically superior weapons that it had in all its wars against India, cuz India only had Russian weapons. Now India buys the best from everywhere, Pakistan has been technologically superseeded by the Indian Armed Forces. So till now, in all the wars, Pakistan fielded more modern equipment on the table which helped it neutralise the numbers fielded by India. Now you tell me what will Pakistan do when India has both the numbers and the tech??

The americans have the best weapons but where defeated in vietnam and getting slaughtered in iraq.

They were defeated in vietnam because USSR was directly aiding the vietcong, they were sending their own planes with their own pilots in vietnam.
Iraq is a differnet issue, do u think India wants to capture Pakistan. No.

I agree that if that if a war between india and pakistan was a long war then pakistan would be defeated.But the pakistans are never going to let it become a long war.

That is why India is changing its military to inflict max punishment in the short time, reducing the sensor to shooter loop with use of greter and greater technology.

The pakistans always neutralize indias threats.The latest thing pakistan is working on is the EMP device which could shut down all of indias communication and electronics.

LOL, and u think India would not have an EMP bomb?? India would already have something like this along with something that wouldnot get affcted by the EMP device.

The chinese have just carried out a successful test of a killer satellite missile which i am sure they will share with pakistan.

LOL, you can be sure, but it aint happening. This is one of the most ridiculous statements i have read. China would never share this tech with Pakistan. You can only develop this on your own. China did not get any help from Russia, it made it on its own. India in time, will make it, Pakistan is far from even having a decent space program, let alone make an ASAT. BTW using an ASAT is tantamount to a nuke war. India will respond in more than kind.

Also i hope you note, that many instituitions have raised the fact that this may not have been an ASAT at all. A fabricated test, the sat positions, etc were calculated, and it was found inconsistent, China simply used this to play it to their advantage. One of those institions is also NORAD.

As a supporter of pakistan i love it that india has increased its defence budget and has become more right wing as this in the long run weakens nations.

Says who?? India has a LOWER defense budget wrt its GDP than Pakistan and certainly much much less than China. So who's getting harmed in the long run? You tell me? India is very careful about this, and that is why our economy is prosperous. Pakistan spends much more on its defense wrt its income than India, and that is why it has a bad economy, etc. Though that is improving now.

As a supporter of Pakistan you should be more and more worried that Pakistan in a war will no longer have the advantages it always held.

 

[dabong1]

Read the stats, they have killed MANY MANY more civilians compared to the the army. That is why the local people no longer support militants like they used to. Infact they have started helping IA more and more in that area, reporting any suspicious persons, etc..

Are you talking about the stats provided by the indian govt/media?
The locals are the freedom fighters....so there telling the indian army where and who they are?

Cross border terrorism has declined, mainly because of Indian efforts in manning the border. That does not mean Pakistan has stopped it. If there is a bomb blast, most likely it has a Pakistani connection. I will cede that Pakistan has had to slow this down also, becaues of world pressure, etc, etc, etc...

What have the indians been doing for the last 15 years if not manning the border.
Once the peace talks fail then we will see how well the indians guard the LOC.

How do you know? America has broken the world terrorism networks back, from supply lines, to money transfers , etc, etc. And he was condemned for doing it, rightly so. Who says Musharraf does not smpathise with thesegroups, but he cant support them like he used to cuz of world opnion, that in itself is a major improvement for India....

Yes of course the americans are defeating al qaeda.......dream on.
Any improvement for india is linked to progress on kashmir .Pakistan can with ease start kashmir operations against the indians.

I think he cannot do it , because of Afghanistan constantly naming him as the creator or problems, and US keepign a watch on Pakistan.....

As if pakistan cares.The americans know fully well pakistan backs the taliban but what have they done....nothing

What interests can Pakistan harm? I mean apart from small things, what really can Pakistan do? It cant use nukes on any US site or base, cuz then US would destroy Pakistan. All Pakistan can do is rain Mujahiden etc. Its pretty common now......

I think you should be asking what pakistan cant do to the americans.
Take out the american fleet is just one simple thing it could do.

When did Pakistan become self sufficient in weapon arens? Last i checked, everything in Pakistani miiltary arsenal is from China or US. The stuff from China is renamed and callde indigenous, from JF-17 to Ak-Khalid to missiles to whatever. Pakistan is very very far from being self-sufficient in weapons arena. It means making everything on your own.......

So the chinese gave pakistan the nukes?
The al khalid tank is produced in china is it.
Go check what happened to indias aim of getting self sufficent.
Pakistan’s tank production effort has been crowned with unprecedented success. The manufacture of Al-Khalid tank shows Pakistan’s technical skills, her dedication and determination in trying to make the country self-sufficient in major armaments. This will eventually obviate the requirements of costly imports, which are often influenced by political and regional considerations. Manufacturing a tank is a highly complicated venture particularly when it is accomplished on a shoe-string budget and in a remarkably short period of time. Pakistan’s effort is particularly laudable when we compare it with the major project launched by India to produce her main battle tank ‘Arjun’, which is still not in production after 16 years of ‘tinkering’ and an expenditure of over $500 million. On the other hand Pakistan’s Al-Khalid tank is now in serial production, the first batch has already been handed over to the Army and is in squadron service.

Correction!!! The world recognized for the FIRST time, the threat of terrorism and what India had been facing since a long time. And they appreciated India for fighting it, and they supported India. It got India and US in this honeymoon now, and it resulted in the world making sure that Pakistan renounces its terrorists,etc, etc, etc. 9/11 has been a boon for India. And in some aspects for Pakistan also, as it gave Pakistan money and weapons..

No you getting mixed with western concern about al qaeda and helping pakistan to get rid of the threat and the indians trying to link the freedom struggle in kashmir with "terror" which no in the global community takes seriously.

Says who, read the EU report on Kashmir. The world supports us everywhere, because 'Pakistan is the sponsor of terrorism'. The world knows and recognises it...

Nicholson's Kashmir report to be revised
Over 450 amendments registered in EP

Brussels, 10 January 2007 - The deadline to submit amendments to the draft report on Kashmir to the European Parliament’s Foreign Affairs Committee expired today at midday Brussels time. The report, that was drafted by Baroness Emma Nicholson, raised controversies and earned condemnations of Kashmiris from both sides of the divide as it ignored fundamental issues of the Kashmir problem.

The “draft” report has been subject of unparallel criticism in the European Parliament and it was overwhelmingly felt to change the report to reflect real concerns and aspirations of the people of Jammu & Kashmir. It is understood that over 450 amendments have been registered with the European Parliament’s Foreign Affairs Committee Secretariat. The amendments are upholding the Kashmiri people’s right to self-determination, deploring gross human rights violations taking place in the Indian occupied Kashmir and seeking funding for rehabilitation and reconstruction for the earthquake victims in Azad Jammu Kashmir.

Yeah they are there, but far less in number and much more vulnerable, operating in below par efficiency. Terrorists no longer have the free run they used to. Their supplies are blocked, the'r funding is blocked, they'r recruitment is blocked, etc, etc..

Do you really think the indian media tells you the truth.
Make yourself happy and belive your own statement.

Yes i agree with you to the fulles extent. And that is why the new doctrines of IA, IN and IAF. Cold start ,etc, etc. Going netcentric so as to convert the numbers into advantage in a short time, reducing sensor to shooter time. You know the Indian Armed Forces, have overhauled themselves finally to recognise the world realities. That is why i said, in the future, Indian military will win because they are changing their doctrine, to neutralise Pakistan's edge. There was an excellent artice on how India's military capability wrt Pakistan will increase in the future. That India's numbers have never effectively contributed to it getting a decisive victory on the battlefront. That that is going to change, with the new efforts and realignement of the IA,IN, and IAF...

And do you not think pakistan has taken appriote counter measures.

Do you think Indian's are not willing to die for their country? If you think so then you are very sadly mistaken. In any case, its not about dying yourselves, its about making the other dude die!
About the weapons, no longer does Pakistan enjoy technologically superior weapons that it had in all its wars against India, cuz India only had Russian weapons. Now India buys the best from everywhere, Pakistan has been technologically superseeded by the Indian Armed Forces. So till now, in all the wars, Pakistan fielded more modern equipment on the table which helped it neutralise the numbers fielded by India. Now you tell me what will Pakistan do when India has both the numbers and the tech??...

We will have to wait and see who wins next time.

They were defeated in vietnam because USSR was directly aiding the vietcong, they were sending their own planes with their own pilots in vietnam.
Iraq is a differnet issue, do u think India wants to capture Pakistan. No.
That is why India is changing its military to inflict max punishment in the short time, reducing the sensor to shooter loop with use of greter and greater technology.??...

Well in the next war we will see who has the better tactics and weapons will the indian cold start be frozen by pakistans plan to counter indian aggression.

LOL, and u think India would not have an EMP bomb?? India would already have something like this along with something that wouldnot get affcted by the EMP device...

LOL and yeah the indians have also got killer satellite technology tech as well have they.
The americans have not got anti EMP stuff where did the indians get it from.
Dreaming again

LOL, you can be sure, but it aint happening. This is one of the most ridiculous statements i have read. China would never share this tech with Pakistan. You can only develop this on your own. China did not get any help from Russia, it made it on its own. India in time, will make it, Pakistan is far from even having a decent space program, let alone make an ASAT. BTW using an ASAT is tantamount to a nuke war. India will respond in more than kind.
Also i hope you note, that many instituitions have raised the fact that this may not have been an ASAT at all. A fabricated test, the sat positions, etc were calculated, and it was found inconsistent, China simply used this to play it to their advantage. One of those institions is also NORAD...

So let me get this right the chinese have helped pakistan with nukes,weapons and building fighter planes but for some reason when it comes satkillers they are not going to help.
Unlike the russians and the americans the chinese are real friends.
India needs to get rid of poverty before you start daydreaming that your a world power.

Says who?? India has a LOWER defense budget wrt its GDP than Pakistan and certainly much much less than China. So who's getting harmed in the long run? You tell me? India is very careful about this, and that is why our economy is prosperous. Pakistan spends much more on its defense wrt its income than India, and that is why it has a bad economy, etc. Though that is improving now.

As a supporter of Pakistan you should be more and more worried that Pakistan in a war will no longer have the advantages it always held.

India spend more on defence then it did 10 years ago.
Get real india has always had the advantage in every war against pakistan.

 

[Bull]

Do not fool yourself and think that the IA/Para Milit/Police in Kashmir has stopped cross border movement.The pakistanis control when and who goes into kashmir from the pakistani side and under the current conditions the pakistanis are going to see if the indians play ball or not..

Since you have said this so plainly, let me also say we shall shoot and kill all those and the ones who help them, whether they be in this side of the border or the other side, as we have been doing all these years.

Pakistan is supporting the americans in afghanistan on the one hand and backing the taliban with the other..

So what is he tryign to gain out of it? Or is it that he has no control and it turns out as you say.

Mushy is playing the indians infront of the world.Preparing the ground to show india as being inflexible on kashmir after all the offers pakistan has made..

The world isnt made up of pakistanis my friend.there are more smarter people around the world than the ones sitting in Islamabad.

After america withdraws from iraq and afganistan i am sure they will not have the stomach for another war..

America never loses interest from an area where they got engaged, if they withdraw from Afghan and Iraq, they would be sailing in persion gulf and Arabian sea looking for ideal targets. Its not in US's interest to see the emrgence of islamic extremism.

What can the american do other then sanction us which they did before but no avail..

No Avail. Look at your PAF< Navy. look at the state of your economy during that time and then comment.

No mate you getting it wrong.The pakistani army is showing the pakistan people and the world that india does not want peace..

By sending pakis abroad on bombibg missions.The whole world knows who is the source and they are dealing with it.

The pakistan side i can tell you are getting trained and ready for the peace talks to fail so they can carry the armed freedom struggle on..

Why wait send them across.

 

[Contrarian]

We will do this, we will do that, we will take appropriate counter measures. Tell me, this has been there every time, when has Pakistan been able to defeat India in war?

Your very seriously deluded if you think that Al-Khalid is indegenous. It is not even REMOTELY so. It is a chinese tank, renamed and fitted with some Pakistan systems to call it indegenous. Pakistan in its history has rarely come up with something that is indegenous. BTW, chk the stats on paper, Arjun is a class above AK, its a heavy tank, its in a different league. And the acquisition of 124 tanks has alredy been approved by the MoD.

If peace talks fail, then we will have the same situation we have now , because during the peace talks, we have built the fence, put radars, got weapon detectors, thermal detection devices, night vision devices, electronic surveillance devices, etc, etc, etc.

If you think you have 'manufactured' the AK, then we have manufactured the T-90S.

There are confirmed reports of terrorist camps shutting down, we have spy satellites, something you might not have heard of, and they have shown the evidence, some have been shifted, some shut, etc, etc. No longer as free as they were.

And if you think you have been very successful in using terrorists to give you an edge against India, then ask yourself, why the Pakistani economy till now has been in SHAMBLES, whereas the world is full of praises of India and its economy has been growing very steadily for quite a while now. Why the world still thinks of militants and wars when it thinks of Pakistan. Why the tourism is so low, etc, etc, etc.

The technological gap b/w India and Pakistan is only set to increase as all restrictions on India have been lifted.

 

[dabong1]

Since you have said this so plainly, let me also say we shall shoot and kill all those and the ones who help them, whether they be in this side of the border or the other side, as we have been doing all these years..

Please let me assure you the freedom fighters will kill/expell every indian occupation army terrorist that has set foot on kashmir.
As the freedom fighters have been doing all these years.

So what is he tryign to gain out of it? Or is it that he has no control and it turns out as you say...

No its called being smart and playing your cards at the right time.
Did you really think pakistan was going to give an opening to the west to attack it?
Wait watch then act.

The world isnt made up of pakistanis my friend.there are more smarter people around the world than the ones sitting in Islamabad....

The world also is not made up of indians.
The people islamabad must have some brains if after being outnumbered 8/1 pakistan is standing after decades of hostility and aggression from the indians.

America never loses interest from an area where they got engaged, if they withdraw from Afghan and Iraq, they would be sailing in persion gulf and Arabian sea looking for ideal targets. Its not in US's interest to see the emrgence of islamic extremism....

No what you meant to say was that it is not in americas/europe intrest to see a the emrgence of islamic union of nations.
The persian gulf get be closed by iran any time it wants so your point is not valid.

No Avail. Look at your PAF< Navy. look at the state of your economy during that time and then comment.....

Yes i looked at PAF and found that after sanctions there building there own plane with china.
The only time the economy was hit was after the nuclear explosions before that it was fine .
Ask anyone about pakistan and they will tell you poor government wealthy population.

By sending pakis abroad on bombibg missions.The whole world knows who is the source and they are dealing with it...

Why do you indians think the world cares about indias opinion?
The only bombing missions which are sanctioned are the ones to kashmir and afghanistan.......Yes the world knows and what!

Why wait send them across.

Dont worry not long to wait.
Let the peace talks fail

 

[Contrarian]

Please let me assure you the freedom fighters will kill/expell every indian occupation army terrorist that has set foot on kashmir.
As the freedom fighters have been doing all these years.

Yeah, they have been getting killed all these years and im sure they will continue to do so.

No its called being smart and playing your cards at the right time.
Did you really think pakistan was going to give an opening to the west to attack it?
Wait watch then act.

Well, lets see when does Pakistan actually act.

The world also is not made up of indians.

But they surely make a good percentage of it

The people islamabad must have some brains if after being outnumbered 8/1 pakistan is standing after decades of hostility and aggression from the indians.

I doubt it, if they had it they wouldnt have a dictator sitting on the throne, and a bad economy, with being subservient to the US.

No what you meant to say was that it is not in americas/europe intrest to see a the emrgence of islamic union of nations.

Who cares for that? Even Islamic nations dont want that. Acc. to you any1 who disagrees to what you think must be stupid??
Its about national unity now, not religious unity. Pakistan must be united for Pakistan's sake, not cuz they are all Muslims and same goes for all other nations.

The persian gulf get be closed by iran any time it wants so your point is not valid.

Not sure what point that was.lol.

Yes i looked at PAF and found that after sanctions there building there own plane with china.

They were not building it with China. They were buying it from China.

The only time the economy was hit was after the nuclear explosions before that it was fine .

Now this is interesting! I hope for your sake that it was

Ask anyone about pakistan and they will tell you poor government wealthy population.

Thats actually quite weird you know. If the population was rich, the govt would tax them a lot and intern get rich while making the population poorer. Then again, who knows what models of economics are out there.

Why do you indians think the world cares about indias opinion?

Well, we didnt but then we started seeing all the articles in all newspapers of the world, about India this and India that, and India being called at major events, etc, etc.

The only bombing missions which are sanctioned are the ones to kashmir and afghanistan.......Yes the world knows and what!

Well...as long as YOU know, let the world goto hell !!

Dont worry not long to wait.
Let the peace talks fail

I hope for everyone's sakes that they dont. No point in predicting the future.

 

[dabong1]

We will do this, we will do that, we will take appropriate counter measures. Tell me, this has been there every time, when has Pakistan been able to defeat India in war.

India is about eight times the size of pakistan its your job to defeat us.

Your very seriously deluded if you think that Al-Khalid is indegenous. It is not even REMOTELY so. It is a chinese tank, renamed and fitted with some Pakistan systems to call it indegenous. Pakistan in its history has rarely come up with something that is indegenous. BTW, chk the stats on paper, Arjun is a class above AK, its a heavy tank, its in a different league. And the acquisition of 124 tanks has alredy been approved by the MoD..

Who built the first rockets.?...germany.
So going of your logic every nation that has a rocket where not built indegenous but copies of the german rockets.


The Hindustan Times newspaper of August 13
: &#8220;Let me begin with the Al-Khalid tank. Even a cursory look at its capabilities shows that it is an armoured corps commander&#8217;s dream. In its offensive capabilities and speed on level ground, it meets every requirement that the Indian army&#8217;s most up-to-date GSQR (General Staff Quality Requirement) for India&#8217;s MBT (Main Battle Tank) project more than a decade ago (16 years). More important, it has a fire control system that enables it to acquire and shoot at targets while moving at high speeds over rough terrain. This is something that India&#8217;s mainstay, the T-72 tanks cannot do (some are being upgraded to have this capability). The fact that all this capability has been packed in a tank with only a 1200 HP engine, means that it has an overall weight of 40 tonnes or thereabout against the Arjun&#8217;s 55 tons (Indian tank under development for the past 16 years). This will give it a lower profile than the typical MBT and make it harder to hit.&#8221;

You right that the arjun tank in is a diffrent league...it is the league below the al khalid tank.

If peace talks fail, then we will have the same situation we have now , because during the peace talks, we have built the fence, put radars, got weapon detectors, thermal detection devices, night vision devices, electronic surveillance devices, etc, etc, etc...

Get real after a few days off heavy shelling from pakistani guns there will no fence left.
Are you that naive that you think that freedom fighter do not have night vision devices, electronic surveillance devices also.

If you think you have 'manufactured' the AK, then we have manufactured the T-90S....

Why do we not use the example of the the BrahMos cruise missile Jointly developed by Russia and India.
Or was made by the indians with no help from russia.
What about your missiles did you indians dream up the idea?

There are confirmed reports of terrorist camps shutting down, we have spy satellites, something you might not have heard of, and they have shown the evidence, some have been shifted, some shut, etc, etc. No longer as free as they were.....

Reading those indian newspapers again.

And if you think you have been very successful in using terrorists to give you an edge against India, then ask yourself, why the Pakistani economy till now has been in SHAMBLES, whereas the world is full of praises of India and its economy has been growing very steadily for quite a while now. Why the world still thinks of militants and wars when it thinks of Pakistan. Why the tourism is so low, etc, etc, etc......

What are you talking about the only time pakistans economy was in a sticky postion was after the nuclear tests when sanctions where slapped on them.
There you go again talking about the world as if it cares about what india has to say.

The technological gap b/w India and Pakistan is only set to increase as all restrictions on India have been lifted.

When was pakistan ahead of india in technology?
You keep talking as if india and pakistan are on a level par.Your population outnumbers us i think 8/1.
Your economy has always from day one been bigger then pakistans.
Your army also from day one has been bigger then pakistans.
Just think if it was the other way round how long do you think india would have lasted?

 

[vnomad]

India is about eight times the size of pakistan its your job to defeat us.

One of the weirdest arguments I've ever heard. Russia is five times the size of Ukraine, therefore its their job to defeat Ukraine?

The Hindustan Times newspaper of August 13

August 13. which year?

&#8220;Let me begin with the Al-Khalid tank. Even a cursory look at its capabilities shows that it is an armoured corps commander&#8217;s dream. In its offensive capabilities and speed on level ground, it meets every requirement that the Indian army&#8217;s most up-to-date GSQR (General Staff Quality Requirement) for India&#8217;s MBT (Main Battle Tank) project more than a decade ago (16 years).

Yes it more than fulfills all requirements, the IA had 16 years ago.

More important, it has a fire control system that enables it to acquire and shoot at targets while moving at high speeds over rough terrain. This is something that India&#8217;s mainstay, the T-72 tanks cannot do (some are being upgraded to have this capability).

The T-90 and Arjun can both fire on the move. The Arjun has a first hit rate of 90-95&#37;. All T-72s will have this capability after the Rhino upgrade.

The fact that all this capability has been packed in a tank with only a 1200 HP engine, means that it has an overall weight of 40 tonnes or thereabout against the Arjun&#8217;s 55 tons (Indian tank under development for the past 16 years).

Size has nothing to do with the capability of the Fire Control System. The Arjun is heavier because it has a far far better level of protection.

This will give it a lower profile than the typical MBT and make it harder to hit.&#8221;

The Arjun outranges the AK by over a km I believe. And a lower profile isn't going to protect the AK against the LAHAT.

You right that the arjun tank in is a diffrent league...it is the league below the al khalid tank.

Reason?

Get real after a few days off heavy shelling from pakistani guns there will no fence left.

That is bullshit. The PA artillery cannot eliminate the hundreds of kms of fencing stretched across the LoC. It will require a huge number of shells to be landed with unprecedented accuracy. Either way the fences aren't in no man's land but well within Indian administrated Kashmir. Shelling Indian area will invite a retaliation that Pakistan doesn't want. I'm willing to compare Indian and Pakistani artillery if you want.

Are you that naive that you think that freedom fighter do not have night vision devices, electronic surveillance devices also.

No they don't. No militant has ever been apprehended or killed with night-vision equipment as far as I know. Either way such equipment is much more useful for surveillance than for evasion.

What are you talking about the only time pakistans economy was in a sticky postion was after the nuclear tests when sanctions where slapped on them.

The time around 9/11, the Pakistani government was on the verge of defaulting on loans. Thanks to becoming an American ally in the war on terror, Pakistan got its loans rescheduled besides receiving further credit.

When was pakistan ahead of india in technology?

How about 1965? The PAF and PA were both had superior technology when compared to the IAF and IA.

You keep talking as if india and pakistan are on a level par.Your population outnumbers us i think 8/1.
Your economy has always from day one been bigger then pakistans.
Your army also from day one has been bigger then pakistans.

Tough Luck mate.

Just think if it was the other way round how long do you think india would have lasted?

Please don't make crazy arguments. India doesn't have any problem with Pakistan existing. And if it was the other way around we'd have lasted just as well as Pakistan.

 

[Bull]

And the freedom fighters will kill more of the india occupation army.

We will easily out number you.

Hopefully you can pass the info on to the indian govt next time they accuse pakistan of "cross border terrorism"

The GOi hasnt blamed them to come thru Kashmir. Time and again the reports have shown that they are entering thru B'desh and Nepal which has become the new launching pad for these terrorists.

Which group did Musharraf give the most credit and money to during the earthquake?......was it not Laskar e Taiba renamed Jama'at ud Dawa.
Tliban stronghold in quetta and what has america done...nothing.
Musharaff publicly deny any support to the freedom fight in kashmir or afghanistan but in reality retraining and rearmimg is taking place with the emphasis on new guerilla tactics and technolgy.

And the sad thing is that these techniques and arms are being also taken into to kill Mushraff's very won soldiers.

Iran and pakistan are not iraq which after 10 years of UN sanction was weakened.

I will provide you with a good read up abt Iran, how Ahmedinjad has failed his own country by taking a confrontist approach with the West.

Pakistan or iran can not defeat america outright but can damage american intrests worlwide.

Can damage american interests regionally, not internationally.

Yes UN sanctions are very effective if there is UN unity on the issue but my point was that american sanctions on pakistan have actually been a positive thing forcing pakistan to become self sufficent in the weapons arena.

Which way is that?What did Pak produce indegenously? Pak is dependant on China to a very very large extent for military hardware andto ukraine for its tank.

The only thing the world recognised after 9/11 was the human rights abuses carried out by the indian regime in kashmir.Sorry to be the one to tell you but the world still does not give serious thought to indian claims about kashmir.

Why would it, Its obvious so why think abt it?

The americans have the best weapons but where defeated in vietnam and getting slaughtered in iraq.

Its Iraqis who are getting slaughtered by the militants trained and funded by Iran.

I agree that if that if a war between india and pakistan was a long war then pakistan would be defeated.But the pakistans are never going to let it become a long war.

How does Pak control it?

The pakistans always neutralize indias threats.The latest thing pakistan is working on is the EMP device which could shut down all of indias communication and electronics.

yes i have heard they are working on a a SML hitech system stealth system too.

As a supporter of pakistan i love it that india has increased its defence budget and has become more right wing as this in the long run weakens nations.

So what do you think pakistan is? With all the support that it provides to the terrorists in Kashmir and taliban/AQ in Afghanistan, Pak is more right wing and as per ur own assumption it should have been non existant by now.

 

[vnomad]

yes i have heard they are working on a a SML hitech system stealth system too.

More info please Bull. What is this SML system?

 

[Contrarian]

India is about eight times the size of pakistan its your job to defeat us.

No, its the job of the agressor to defeat the other country. In our case, thats always been Pakistan, if you attack another country, then you have the aim of defeating it, landmass is no criteria. Or do you mean to say Pakistan attacked India always because it wanted to lose?

Who built the first rockets.?...germany.
So going of your logic every nation that has a rocket where not built indegenous but copies of the german rockets.

I wish it were that simple, read the many international reports that say that Pakistan's missiles are of North Korean or Chinese Origin.

The Hindustan Times newspaper of August 13
: “Let me begin with the Al-Khalid tank. Even a cursory look at its capabilities shows that it is an armoured corps commander’s dream. In its offensive capabilities and speed on level ground, it meets every requirement that the Indian army’s most up-to-date GSQR (General Staff Quality Requirement) for India’s MBT (Main Battle Tank) project more than a decade ago (16 years). More important, it has a fire control system that enables it to acquire and shoot at targets while moving at high speeds over rough terrain. This is something that India’s mainstay, the T-72 tanks cannot do (some are being upgraded to have this capability). The fact that all this capability has been packed in a tank with only a 1200 HP engine, means that it has an overall weight of 40 tonnes or thereabout against the Arjun’s 55 tons (Indian tank under development for the past 16 years). This will give it a lower profile than the typical MBT and make it harder to hit.”

Yeah, it did meet the requirement 16 years ago! No ned to say anything else.

You right that the arjun tank in is a diffrent league...it is the league below the al khalid tank.

I am starting to think of you as a bit low on intelligence. Arjun is a HEAVY tank designed along the lines of western MBT's. Its concept is very different from the Russian style tanks like Al-Khalid. Al-Khalid and all the T-series including T-90S's are LIGHT to MEDIUM tanks. There is simply no comparison. Arjun has a much much much superior Armour, and can fire LAHAT misiles from its tube. It can fire on the move, with a much greater accuracy, and has a much wider range of radar. Like vnomad said atleast a km.

Get real after a few days off heavy shelling from pakistani guns there will no fence left.

As said above, the fence is on Indian territory, Pakistani heavy shelling on Indian territory would make India respond in MORE than kind. If you want to compare Artillary systems, vnomad has aleady invited you.

Are you that naive that you think that freedom fighter do not have night vision devices, electronic surveillance devices also.

They are freedom fighters/terrorists/resistance. They dont use night vision devices, or radars or hand held electronic devices. They have Ak-47's along with grenades, and rocket launchers, etc, etc. The best they normally get is IED''s. Till date, NONE of the terrorists killed or captured have ever had any such devices. They are less than avg at best. This is not a modern hi-tech army that will have surveillance equipment. The idea is laughable for atleast another deacade.

Why do we not use the example of the the BrahMos cruise missile Jointly developed by Russia and India.
Or was made by the indians with no help from russia.

No it is very much a 50:50 venture b/w India an Russia. The company BrahMos is a PRIVATE company. Russia designed the propulsion system, India designed the navigation system. It has its own site and corporate headquarters, you are free to contact them.
India-Russia also have provisions to sell the missile to third countries that are mutually acceptable to both.

What about your missiles did you indians dream up the idea?

Eh??

What are you talking about the only time pakistans economy was in a sticky postion was after the nuclear tests when sanctions where slapped on them.

Yeah sure, im sure Pakistan's economy was fledgeling before teh sanctions.

There you go again talking about the world as if it cares about what india has to say.

Right like i said above, we dont say, every damned newspaper worth its salt in almost every country of the world has printed atleast one story highlighting how important India has become now and how important it will become in the future, apart from the usual, great economy, etc, etc, etc.

When was pakistan ahead of india in technology?

When has Pakistan NOT been ahead in terms of technology in its armed forces?? Every time Pakistan has gone to war against India, it ALWAYS, without exception had superior technology on its side sold to it from the US, whether it be the PAF, or the PA. The only exception has been the Navy.

You keep talking as if india and pakistan are on a level par.Your population outnumbers us i think 8/1.

So?? Japan and US probably have less than a fraction of our population? Does that mean that they cannot defeat us. In japan's case, can its Navy not defeat the IN??

Your economy has always from day one been bigger then pakistans.

Its not our fault, its YOUR fault. Japan is such a small nation, yet it towers over all other bigger nation when it comes to technology. Why hasnt Pakistan done so?? Hell Singapore, etc have an excellent economy.

Let me tell you: Because you get one dictator after another who runs the country however he feels like. And incidentally Musharraf has still not left his post, and is unlikely to do so for the next 5 years even. Ofcourse its all in 'Pakistans Interst'.

Your army also from day one has been bigger then pakistans.

So? You had technology on your side. You had better weapons.

Just think if it was the other way round how long do you think india would have lasted?

Quite as much long as you have tbh. And prolly little more, we wouldnt have had Zia and Musharraf at the helm of our affairs.

 

[Bull]

More info please Bull. What is this SML system?

Its some hitech system which can hack into US netwrok and trigger US missiles against India.

 

[dabong1]

No, its the job of the agressor to defeat the other country. In our case, thats always been Pakistan, if you attack another country, then you have the aim of defeating it, landmass is no criteria. Or do you mean to say Pakistan attacked India always because it wanted to lose?.

You forget that it was the aim of indian from day one to finish pakistan and absorb it into the indian union.
The indians are the agressors but have so far failed in there attempts to finish pakistan.
Know with the nukes i think finally india has accepted pakistan.

I wish it were that simple, read the many international reports that say that Pakistan's missiles are of North Korean or Chinese Origin..

Yeah and the chinese missiles are of russian origin which in turn are of german orgin.

Yeah, it did meet the requirement 16 years ago! No ned to say anything else.
I am starting to think of you as a bit low on intelligence. Arjun is a HEAVY tank designed along the lines of western MBT's. Its concept is very different from the Russian style tanks like Al-Khalid. Al-Khalid and all the T-series including T-90S's are LIGHT to MEDIUM tanks. There is simply no comparison. Arjun has a much much much superior Armour, and can fire LAHAT misiles from its tube. It can fire on the move, with a much greater accuracy, and has a much wider range of radar. Like vnomad said atleast a km...

None of the three major military projects india has tried to take on have been completed on time or without huge cost-overruns. These include the development of a Main Battle Tank (MBT), a nuclear power plant for a submarine, and an advanced Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), all involving expenditures of hundreds of millions of dollars.

The MBT project was launched in 1974. But the tank has failed to meet service requirement tests. It is reportedly too heavy and undependable to be used in combat operations. The Indian Army prefers imported Russian tanks over the indigenous MBTs and says it will use the MBTs for training, not operations.

The nuclear submarine project, launched 31 years ago, is not yet finished despite the almost $1 billion spent on it. The LCA project, launched in 1983, is still in the doldrums: the DRDO has failed to develop the right engine for it. Even with an imported engine, the plane is unlikely to enter service anytime soon.

"I am starting to think of you as a bit low on intelligence"

As said above, the fence is on Indian territory, Pakistani heavy shelling on Indian territory would make India respond in MORE than kind. If you want to compare Artillary systems, vnomad has aleady invited you....

No the fence is not on indian territory the fence is on kashmiri territory.
Off course the indians are going to shell the pakistanis in response but only along the LOC.
Compare Artillary systems all day long for all i care but the only thing that counts is that the fence is destroyed in certain parts so that the fighters can cross over.

They are freedom fighters/terrorists/resistance. They dont use night vision devices, or radars or hand held electronic devices. They have Ak-47's along with grenades, and rocket launchers, etc, etc. The best they normally get is IED''s. Till date, NONE of the terrorists killed or captured have ever had any such devices. They are less than avg at best. This is not a modern hi-tech army that will have surveillance equipment. The idea is laughable for atleast another deacade.....

This report is from 1999 nearly 7 years ago,what type of tech do you think they have now in 2006?

As of 1999, the major militant organizations fighting in Kashmir included the Hizb-ul Mujahidin, Harakat-ul Ansar and Lashgar-i Toiba. The latter two, in particular, are reported to include a large number of non-Kashmiris. Most of these groups support accession to Pakistan. The Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF), the organization that spearheaded the movement for an independent Kashmir, declared a cease-fire in 1994. All groups have reportedly received arms and training from Pakistan. The weapons they have used include AK-47 and AK-56 assault rifles, light machine guns, revolvers, and landmines. The militants are also reported to have sophisticated night-vision and wireless communication equipment. Officially, the Pakistani government has denied involvement in arming and training Kashmiri militants, but the claim is generally not considered credible.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kashmir/back.htm

I hope your still laughing.

Right like i said above, we dont say, every damned newspaper worth its salt in almost every country of the world has printed atleast one story highlighting how important India has become now and how important it will become in the future, apart from the usual, great economy, etc, etc, etc......

Good for you but my point is about kashmir and the world wanting a UN solution to the issue.

When has Pakistan NOT been ahead in terms of technology in its armed forces?? Every time Pakistan has gone to war against India, it ALWAYS, without exception had superior technology on its side sold to it from the US, whether it be the PAF, or the PA. The only exception has been the Navy.......

Okay we had better planes what about everything else.

So?? Japan and US probably have less than a fraction of our population? Does that mean that they cannot defeat us. In japan's case, can its Navy not defeat the IN??...

Wake up..... the indian army is not a bunch of peacekeepers.
How the hell would japan defeat india?
The americans other then there bomber planes are rubbish.They can not defeat the 20,000 iraqis freedom fighters but there going to defeat india?

Its not our fault, its YOUR fault. Japan is such a small nation, yet it towers over all other bigger nation when it comes to technology. Why hasnt Pakistan done so?? Hell Singapore, etc have an excellent economy...

military dictators

Let me tell you: Because you get one dictator after another who runs the country however he feels like. And incidentally Musharraf has still not left his post, and is unlikely to do so for the next 5 years even. Ofcourse its all in 'Pakistans Interst'....

You are right the military should not run the country.

So? You had technology on your side. You had better weapons.....

I think it had more to do with the indians thinking the pakistanis where a pushover and then using the excuse of the pakistanis had better weapons.

 

[Adux]

Honestly Dabong,
Except for those RSS freaks, No one wants India to have anything to do with Pakistan.

 

[dabong1]

We will easily out number you..

Like you always have but it got you nothing.

The GOi hasnt blamed them to come thru Kashmir. Time and again the reports have shown that they are entering thru B'desh and Nepal which has become the new launching pad for these terrorists...

I think the pakistanis also have a underwater training camp in the indian ocean where they send terrorist via midget submarines.

And the sad thing is that these techniques and arms are being also taken into to kill Mushraff's very won soldiers....

Al qeada tried killing mushy not the kashmiri/afghan freedom fighters.

I will provide you with a good read up abt Iran, how Ahmedinjad has failed his own country by taking a confrontist approach with the West.....

If he had failed is country or does fail his country the people of iran would vote him out.

Can damage american interests regionally, not internationally..

Unless pakistan felt suicidal and took everybody out with nuclear weapons.

Which way is that?What did Pak produce indegenously? Pak is dependant on China to a very very large extent for military hardware andto ukraine for its tank...

Ukraine supplies the engines but where does the rest of the tank come from?
The JF-17 Thunder is jointly manufactured by Pakistan and China.

Why would it, Its obvious so why think abt it?...

keep kidding yourself

Its Iraqis who are getting slaughtered by the militants trained and funded by Iran..

Iraqis are getting killed but its by american carbombs and military.

How does Pak control it?..

Has there ever been long war between pakistan and india ?

yes i have heard they are working on a a SML hitech system stealth system too...

I hope you where as sarcastic as you are know when pakistan did there nuclear test....didn't the indians say that pakistan was bluffing and that it had no nukes.

So what do you think pakistan is? With all the support that it provides to the terrorists in Kashmir and taliban/AQ in Afghanistan, Pak is more right wing and as per ur own assumption it should have been non existant by now.

Giving help to the freedom fighters of kashmir/afghanistan is not right wing unless your indian or american.
I bet you have never been to pakistan but base your assumptions on newspaper articles.
Pakistan is left wing in thoughts and actions the only time there is any right wing reaction it has something to with india.