5th Gen Aircraft Maybe Impotent Against A Large Enemy W/out A Complimentary Heavy Strike Aircraft

[Khafee]

@MastanKhan @Bilal Khan 777

What members of this forum must understand, (IF they really want to understand how air power works, and they actually think that this is a defence forum), is that there is NO such thing as a "defensive air force." If this is your doctrine, then you might as well roll over, and play dead.

In today's world you have to go out and meet people, you can't sit on your fat behind, and expect things to fall in your lap. It is only by the grace of God, that your biggest enemy is a bungling drunk buffoon, who can't even keep his pants on.

It seems the top brass at PAF is playing it safe, by playing "pass the buck". Pass the buck to the next ACM, Ensure you don't screw up your pension. Unfortunately to question authority, besides having balls, a person needs a strong financial background, or faith in God, that he is the ultimate provider. Either one will do!

Money is secondary. If enough noise is made, the money WILL COME. The Psyche of the top brass has to change.

From personal experience, right or wrong, unit commanders that make the most noise, get the best resources.

Over and Out.

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan @Bilal Khan 777

What members of this forum must understand, (IF they really want to understand how air power works, and they actually think that this is a defence forum), is that there is NO such thing as a "defensive air force." If this is your doctrine, then you might as well roll over, and play dead.

In today's world you have to go out and meet people, you can't sit on your fat behind, and expect things to fall in your lap. It is only by the grace of God, that your biggest enemy is a bungling drunk buffoon, who can't even keep his pants on.

It seems the top brass at PAF is playing it safe, by playing "pass the buck". Pass the buck to the next ACM, Ensure you don't screw up your pension. Unfortunately to question authority, besides having balls, a person needs a strong financial background, or faith in God, that he is the ultimate provider. Either one will do!

Money is secondary. If enough noise is made, the money WILL COME. The Psyche of the top brass has to change.

From personal experience, right or wrong, unit commanders that make the most noise, get the best resources.

Over and Out.

@Khafee,

You put it in these few lines that I could not explain in pages----. The problem lies with the top air force brass----and none of them have the courage to stand up and say that we are headed the wrong direction.

The only way the psyche can be changed is when they are confronted---confronted on the national media channels.

It has been 50 years that they have been bragging about their victory and no one has spoken against them--because none of them know how to.

Just look at this thread---the future of pakistan---how mentally disabled they are---they have a no say in funding---yet they are coming up with excuses for the air force---.

I am trying to tell these kids that it is not their job to talk about funding---jiust talk about the need and neccesity---but out of habbit and lack of learning ability----they again come back with funding issue.

They are basically cutting their own feet---. What these kids are doing is justifying the CRIME that someone else committed without that person taking the stand.

These kids have already done the cover up for the air force---so why does the air force need to reply---even though the funds were available and they were squandered and misused.

I am afraid your belief in the potency of conventional bombers against the enemy's economy is highly exaggerated. As you, I am not speaking of fighter-bombers in battle but deep penetration bombers as strategic weapons against an economy, bombing economic targets.

As recounted in multiple analyses and histories after the fact it has been shown that the impact of the allied WWII bombing campaign - the Americans by day and the Britishers by night - on the German economy was significantly overestimated in comparison to the efforts put in, despite the grand claims of their air forces at the time. At best the grand bombing campaigns wore down the civilian populations' nerves (Dresden.being a classic example).

Even your movie example of the bombing of the ball bearing factory is based on pure melodrama. In real life the Schweinfurt - Regensburg bombing missions degraded the the allied attacking air force by an unacceptable 25% and barely made a dent on the German economy. Although badly hit, the factories were up and running weeks later. From a strategic perspective the mission was a failure.

Unless your airforce uses nukes against us, conventional bombing is unlikely to accomplish much.

Hi,

I did not say anything about the economy---I said it was the begining of the end----. Any industry is severely hampered if you stop their ability to build machines---all machines use ball bearing one way or the other---.

And in the long run---it has a multiplier effect---like the snowball---.

What kind of B S are you coming up with " multiple analysyses "----the germans were smashed---their industrial base smashed---Dresden was a punishment---.

Now just because you are indian---you don't need to take stupidity to levels not known before---.

And you indians don't have the nerve and backbone of the germans----. Let air strikes come to south india----less than 50 air strikes and all the foreign capital would be running out of the country.

My primary interest is not in your industry directly---my interest is to strike so that the foreign capital feel vulnerable and runs out of the country---. That is just the begining of the pain.

 

[Khafee]

@MastanKhan

The crux of he problem is that there is no one to question the Armed Forces. Ideally they should be subservient to the Govt. but unfortunately, when you have skeletons in your closet, you become impotent.

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan

The crux of he problem is that there is no one to question the Armed Forces. Ideally they should be subservient to the Govt. but unfortunately, when you have skeletons in your closet, you become impotent.

@Khafee

The problem is that those who were to question---they are illeterate themselves---they do not know anything---so what could they ask---! How could they question?

 

[HAIDER]

Hi,

For some reason there has been a misconception growing amongst the posters that a 5th gen aircraft if the right choice for paf without getting a heavy strike aircraft. The assumption is that all the problems will be resolved and solved after their induction. Well the reality is that is when the real problems will pop up.

5th gen fighter aircraft is not the end of the conventional air combat but the begining of technical breakthrough in the world of air combat as we know of. The roles of a 5th gen aircraft are multiple---it ingresses closer / into the enemy territory without being detected---on its own it can launch missiles without a fear of full detection---its electronic gear and sensors giving it protection against enemy strike back and recognition---its ability to act as a mini awacs right in the middle of the battle---without being seen---its ability to guide electronically other aircraft to the target---its ability to launch the weaponery of other complimentary aircraft from a standoff range at the enemy and at the enemy's assets.

The last part is where the heavy strike aircraft becomes indespensable---because of its limited weight carrying ability---the 5th gen is only capable to do so much. Where the 4th and 4.5 gen aircraft may not be able to get closer to the enemy assets or they may get cloe but with losses---the 5th gen aircraft would be playing the most important role---it would take away the level of threat of immediate recognition as it guides its complimentary aircraft into position to launch their assets and fly away.

Now as the cost of the operation is pretty heavy---so the utility of the aircraft needs to be appropriate as well. So---when facing an enemy that is twice as large the opportunity to slip thru needs to be maximized to the maximum---. For that reason---the light aircraft will not serve the purpose well---.

The air battle scenario on youtube of the F22 fighter aircraft getting help from BVR equipped B1 bombers that @Aamir Hussain posted over here should have been an eye opener for pakistanis---the role and objective of the aircraft doing what it did was clear as daylight.

It showed the strengths of the F22---and it clearly showed the weaknesses of the F22 as well---it also showed the utility of the F22 in a new format where one pilot may use the assets of multiple aircraft.

The most important thing over here is that complimentary aircraft need to have a lots of assets at hand to take advantage of the opportunity presented---.

Just because we only saw the video of the B1 bomber's load being utilized by the F22 pilot---it does not mean that the load of the B52 is not in the reach of the F22 pilot----now just imagine the B52 unleashing its load from standoff distances as being guided by the F22 pilot who is right in the arena---the enemy does not even know from where the strike is coming from before the B52 is gone.

The readers must understand---that when you buy a weapons system---it is not for show---it is not what you wanted to buy----but it is to counter what the enemy has and to negate their strength. MastanKhan

@Khafee @Irfan Baloch

This is how the F-117A was shot down in Serbia by a SA-3 (S-75) Goa SAM in 1999
Posted by: Larkins Dsouza February 8, 2007 23 Comments


One F-117 has been lost in combat, to Serbian/Yugoslav forces. On March 27, 1999, during the Kosovo War, the 3rd Battalion of the 250th Missile Brigade under the command of Colonel Zoltán Dani, equipped with the Isayev S-125 ‘Neva-M’ (NATO designation SA-3 ‘Goa’), downed F-117A serial number 82-806 with a Neva-M missile. According to NATO Commander Wesley Clark and other NATO generals, Yugoslav air defenses found that they could detect F-117s with their “obsolete” Soviet radars operating on long wavelengths.

This, combined with the loss of stealth when the jets got wet or opened their bomb bays, made them visible on radar screens. The pilot, Captain Ken “Wiz” Dwelle, survived and was later rescued by NATO forces. However, the wreckage of the F-117 was not promptly bombed, and the Serbs are believed to have invited Russian personnel to inspect the remains, inevitably compromising the US stealth technology.

The SAMs were most likely guided manually with the help of thermal images and laser rangefinders included in the Pechora-M variant of the SA-3s believed to have been used. Reportedly several SA-3s were launched, one of which detonated in close proximity to the F-117A, forcing the pilot to eject. According to an interview, Zoltán Dani was able to keep most of his missile sites intact and had a number of spotters spread out looking for F-117s and other aircraft.

Zoltán and his missile crews guessed the flight paths of earlier F-117As from occasional visual and radar spotting and judging from this information and what target had just been bombed, Zoltán and his missile battery determined the probable flight path of F-117A. His missile crews and spotters were then able to locate it and fire their missiles. Zoltán also claims to have modified his radars to better detect the F-117A, but he has not disclosed what was changed. Parts of the shot-down aircraft are now presented to the public in the Museum of Yugoslav Aviation in Belgrade.

Some sources claim a second F-117A was also damaged during a raid in the Kosovo War, and although it made it back to its base, it never flew again. Yugoslavian air defenses were seen as relatively obsolete.

Some pieces of the F-117’s wreckage are preserved at the Serbian Museum of Aviation in Belgrade, other pieces of wreckage were reportedly sent to Russia, to be used in developing anti-stealth technology. The USAF retired the F-117 in 2008.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

B52 carry cruise missile with range of 1000 miles, F22 can't . Second F22 maturity date is not fixed yet. There is no battle tested 5th generation in the world. Except above example. So, cure of everything is there.
As far as Pakistan arch rival India, it has no battle tested plane yet, except Mig29 and Pakistan has F16, tested repeatedly and proven lethal. F18,F15,F14 and F16 are proven fighter as of today, which have constantly did " air combat mission" . Here we not talking about ground strike missions.

 

[MastanKhan]

This is how the F-117A was shot down in Serbia by a SA-3 (S-75) Goa SAM in 1999
Posted by: Larkins Dsouza February 8, 2007 23 Comments


One F-117 has been lost in combat, to Serbian/Yugoslav forces. On March 27, 1999, during the Kosovo War, the 3rd Battalion of the 250th Missile Brigade under the command of Colonel Zoltán Dani, equipped with the Isayev S-125 ‘Neva-M’ (NATO designation SA-3 ‘Goa’), downed F-117A serial number 82-806 with a Neva-M missile. According to NATO Commander Wesley Clark and other NATO generals, Yugoslav air defenses found that they could detect F-117s with their “obsolete” Soviet radars operating on long wavelengths.

This, combined with the loss of stealth when the jets got wet or opened their bomb bays, made them visible on radar screens. The pilot, Captain Ken “Wiz” Dwelle, survived and was later rescued by NATO forces. However, the wreckage of the F-117 was not promptly bombed, and the Serbs are believed to have invited Russian personnel to inspect the remains, inevitably compromising the US stealth technology.

The SAMs were most likely guided manually with the help of thermal images and laser rangefinders included in the Pechora-M variant of the SA-3s believed to have been used. Reportedly several SA-3s were launched, one of which detonated in close proximity to the F-117A, forcing the pilot to eject. According to an interview, Zoltán Dani was able to keep most of his missile sites intact and had a number of spotters spread out looking for F-117s and other aircraft.

Zoltán and his missile crews guessed the flight paths of earlier F-117As from occasional visual and radar spotting and judging from this information and what target had just been bombed, Zoltán and his missile battery determined the probable flight path of F-117A. His missile crews and spotters were then able to locate it and fire their missiles. Zoltán also claims to have modified his radars to better detect the F-117A, but he has not disclosed what was changed. Parts of the shot-down aircraft are now presented to the public in the Museum of Yugoslav Aviation in Belgrade.

Some sources claim a second F-117A was also damaged during a raid in the Kosovo War, and although it made it back to its base, it never flew again. Yugoslavian air defenses were seen as relatively obsolete.

Some pieces of the F-117’s wreckage are preserved at the Serbian Museum of Aviation in Belgrade, other pieces of wreckage were reportedly sent to Russia, to be used in developing anti-stealth technology. The USAF retired the F-117 in 2008.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

B52 carry cruise missile with range of 1000 miles, F22 can't . Second F22 maturity date is not fixed yet. There is no battle tested 5th generation in the world. Except above example. So, cure of everything is there.
As far as Pakistan arch rival India, it has no battle tested plane yet, except Mig29 and Pakistan has F16, tested repeatedly and proven lethal. F18,F15,F14 and F16 are proven fighter as of today, which have constantly did " air combat mission" . Here we not talking about ground strike missions.

Hi,

I am sorry---I missed what you wanted to say---a little explanation would be fine to give the mind the direction to understand---.

 

[illuminatidinesh]

Hi,

I did not say anything about the economy---I said it was the begining of the end----. Any industry is severely hampered if you stop their ability to build machines---all machines use ball bearing one way or the other---.

And in the long run---it has a multiplier effect---like the snowball---.

What kind of B S are you coming up with " multiple analysyses "----the germans were smashed---their industrial base smashed---Dresden was a punishment---.

Now just because you are indian---you don't need to take stupidity to levels not known before---.

And you indians don't have the nerve and backbone of the germans----. Let air strikes come to south india----less than 50 air strikes and all the foreign capital would be running out of the country.

My primary interest is not in your industry directly---my interest is to strike so that the foreign capital feel vulnerable and runs out of the country---. That is just the begining of the pain.

From a senior member I expected more and some sound argument.
Pity you think u can derail Indian economy by attacking Mumbai alone. Or you have big plans for Chennai as well? ( You dont need to take stupidity to this level)
In war with what you intend to cross the Indian air space to do your less than 50 air strikes?
Funny we dont need to be nerve whacking PAF or Germans but we can be RAF defending our assets with the Hurricanes and Spitfires ( I am not even considering the future acquisitions) .
Its great to discuss and argue what PAF needs but counting the enemy for nothing, well I have nothing more to comment.

Hi,

I am sorry---I missed what you wanted to say---a little explanation would be fine to give the mind the direction to understand---.

He simply implies why you never consider Indian air defense network?
Come on Mastan bhai too much Dale Brown novel huh?

 

[MastanKhan]

From a senior member I expected more and some sound argument.
Pity you think u can derail Indian economy by attacking Mumbai alone. Or you have big plans for Chennai as well? ( You dont need to take stupidity to this level)
In war with what you intend to cross the Indian air space to do your less than 50 air strikes?
Funny we dont need to be nerve whacking PAF or Germans but we can be RAF defending our assets with the Hurricanes and Spitfires ( I am not even considering the future acquisitions) .
Its great to discuss and argue what PAF needs but counting the enemy for nothing, well I have nothing more to comment.


He simply implies why you never consider Indian air defense network?
Come on Mastan bhai too much Dale Brown novel huh?

Hi,

Defensive networks does not stop an offencive mission. Leave the senior membership " thing " aside----.

I am talking about that region---do you pity the indian air force striking Karachi---and pulverizing it---.

In war---if it has legs----" stupidity aside " it will reach its target---that is the simple rule of combat---either it is my weapon---or it is my enemy's weapon---regardless of the rhetoric.

 

[illuminatidinesh]

Hi,

Defensive networks does not stop an offencive mission. Leave the senior membership " thing " aside----.

I am talking about that region---do you pity the indian air force striking Karachi---and pulverizing it---.

In war---if it has legs----" stupidity aside " it will reach its target---that is the simple rule of combat---either it is my weapon---or it is my enemy's weapon---regardless of the rhetoric.

Well the whole purpose of defensive weapon then?
I dont want to get into an argument Mastan Bhai, I know you are trying to point out what is best for PAF for the given offensive missions. We might as well discuss about this Indian defense in some other thread. I was just not happy you going down to a level to reply one post that is all.
Regards.

 

[thrilainmanila]

i think this is a third class thread. i'm sorry to say this. but i'm no yes man and i'll speak my mind.
unless you have good support a heavy strike aircraft presents a massive target. you need many of them to make a difference, it PAF had something like 35 SU-35s it still wouldn't mean shit IMO, first of all they are long distance aircraft they may keep the indian navy at a certain level of check, but then would PAF truly be able to risk them to strike deep into enemy territory knowing the type of obsticles they would be facing? they need to overcome villains such as the S-300,S-400 and many other bad guys. to achieve your mission you'd literally have to afford to risk losing a portion of these fighters and would it be worth it? when war will come down to a battle of attrition.

 

[MastanKhan]

Well the whole purpose of defensive weapon then?
I dont want to get into an argument Mastan Bhai, I know you are trying to point out what is best for PAF for the given offensive missions. We might as well discuss about this Indian defense in some other thread. I was just not happy you going down to a level to reply one post that is all.
Regards.

Hi,

Well the whole purpose of the defencive weapons is to protect---and the whole purpose of the offencive weapons is to penetrate.

I am not here to discuss indian defence capability---my primary goal is for pakistan air force to have offencive capability and then to target the indian defence---you will have what you have---I am not going to lose sleep over it----but it is the lack of what I do not have is a matter of concern to me.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

............What kind of B S are you coming up with " multiple analysyses "----the germans were smashed---their industrial base smashed---Dresden was a punishment---.

Now just because you are indian---you don't need to take stupidity to levels not known before---..........................

Having read you for a while on this forum I thought you knew what you were talking about.

But on this topic it is now personally obvious to me that you make grandiose statements without bothering to actually conduct the analyses required to back up your opinion. Everything I said about the efficacy of allied air bombing is actually fact documented by multiple historians. it is an acknowledged fact that, while potent, the impact of strategic air bombing (of the non nuclear type) was severely overestimated while WWII was on, and that the Germans were destroyed by the use of combined arms by all the allied forces,

It is regrettable that instead of debating the issue logically, you indulge in insults- "just because you are Indian"..."stupidty".

You can overwhelm the children on this forum with bluster, it will take more to conduct a reasonable debate.

 

[HAIDER]

From a senior member I expected more and some sound argument.
Pity you think u can derail Indian economy by attacking Mumbai alone. Or you have big plans for Chennai as well? ( You dont need to take stupidity to this level)
In war with what you intend to cross the Indian air space to do your less than 50 air strikes?
Funny we dont need to be nerve whacking PAF or Germans but we can be RAF defending our assets with the Hurricanes and Spitfires ( I am not even considering the future acquisitions) .
Its great to discuss and argue what PAF needs but counting the enemy for nothing, well I have nothing more to comment.


He simply implies why you never consider Indian air defense network?
Come on Mastan bhai too much Dale Brown novel huh?

Exactly , country built defence system by keep rival in mind. Its something, if India developing AF keep UK AF fleet in building standards.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

what was the purpose of this thread, and what are we on about now? Admins, please bring the thread to its logical conclusion: Closure.

 

[MastanKhan]

what was the purpose of this thread, and what are we on about now? Admins, please bring the thread to its logical conclusion: Closure.

Hi,

This is not an easy subject to deal with---. The difficult part is understanding the change in technology and its effects---.