5th Gen Aircraft Maybe Impotent Against A Large Enemy W/out A Complimentary Heavy Strike Aircraft

[Hamza913]

your opponent

I think the Panavia Tornado would work well as a quick fix, but perhaps a better aircraft is required in the long run. Maybe a more recent Chinese attack aircraft? I already mentioned the Flying Leopard in another post.

 

[MastanKhan]

I am grey haired and probably older than you so please do not try to patronise. Also I am neither in awe nor beholden to an kind of idols worship, asked you simple straight questions to gauge you competence in what you are professing.

Hi,

If you are what you say---then get out of this mindset that paf knows best---.

Paf as an organization has not been accountable to the nation for 50 + years----there is no organization in the world--whose feet if they are not held onto fire occasionally----performs close to 100% of its capability.

It is always a sob story here---it is always a painful experience there---there are always a million and one excuse----and you pakistanis support those excuse as if they are words written in the Holy book.

And then you guys take it upon yourself to preach those excuses at every opportunity that you guys get.

Stop covering for their mistakes and blunders---let them answer for their sins for once.

 

[Windjammer]

We assume......we presume.....Glass is half empty.
All others live in oblivion, hence I'm the judge, the jury and executioner.
Since PAF converted to Jet age, with the exception of the Super marine Attackers, every fast jet the PAF inducted, it used in operations and they delivered for their period. Realising the potential of the A-5, even they aren't yet scrapped and kept in storage. The F-86s and F-104s won laurels in '65 again in '71 they held more than their own, Mirages were in a class of their own. Under the sanctions, Kargil was not a good time for the PAF but it still managed defensive sorties and also gained locks on Indian Fulcrums. On the contrary can the other side claim the same satisfaction with their, Vampires, Hunters, Gnats or SU-7s or even their MiGs and Jaguars...today PAF is in a much more potent force than it has ever been, what it inducts, it utilises it for the purpose. Buying big and expensive aircraft just to enjoy watching them dance in the sky is an ego we rather live without.....but as they say, grass is greener on the other side. !!!!

 

[Ark_Angel]

@Mastan Khan: Sir its not as easy as it seems. JH-7B might seem like a great aircraft to you but it doesnt provide you an out of the box solution which a real heavy like the flanker or typhoon ,may provide. Therefore please forget JH-7 had it been the 90s it might have seemed like a sane choice but in 2016 its induction doesnt hold much weight. Better to save that money and go for a real beast i.e typhoon or in the best case the flanker.

 

[MastanKhan]

@Mastan Khan: Sir its not as easy as it seems. JH-7B might seem like a great aircraft to you but it doesnt provide you an out of the box solution which a real heavy like the flanker or typhoon ,may provide. Therefore please forget JH-7 had it been the 90s it might have seemed like a sane choice but in 2016 its induction doesnt hold much weight. Better to save that money and go for a real beast i.e typhoon or in the best case the flanker.

Hi,

Thank you for your post---. Typhoon does not do the job of a JH7B---. The JH7B's utility is more obvious and more needed now than it was in the 90's.

You have to cover your sea lanes and give protection farther out. For that you need something that can stay afloat in the air for awhile and carry a good load.

The Typhoon is not available---if it is---it is close to 140 mil a unit.

In truth---paf needs both types of aircraft---air superiority and air dominance---and then a heavy strike aircraft---if SU34 was available---I wuld say yes---but I am only talking about what is available---and not what is on the wish list---.

It is not a matter of 80's---90's or the 21st century----it is about technology---.

The upgrade on the B52 bomber and the B1 bomber have taken those aircraft to new heights.

I don't understand why you guys go suddenly blind with what has been done with these aircraft---.

All you guys are looking for is " how many G's can the aircraft take " and all the show and strut is what it is all about and it is not---.

Modern day fire control radars---weapons packages and electronic jammers and counter jammers have totally eviscerated the playing field in the favor of those who can understand the change---learn and ADAPT.

We have a 70's technology aircraft with an 80's aircraframe---this aircraft is called an F16----we had it re-furbished and upgraded---and now it is of the same standard as a new BLK52 that we bought in 2007---.

We prove it with one hand that it can be done---to an aircraft that we WORSHIP---The F16 and on the other hand---we say it cannot be done to another aircraft---because that aircraft is a piece of sh-it---.

We already proved what we could do to a piece of TU-RD---an F7M and make an F7PG out of it with 30--to 60% more capability over the original.

It is an absolute LIE and total Bull Sh-it that it cannot be done to a JH7B.

I mean to say---look at the bragging rights for the Mirage ROSE 1 2 and 3 upgrades----.

 

[MastanKhan]

We assume......we presume.....Glass is half empty.
All others live in oblivion, hence I'm the judge, the jury and executioner.
Since PAF converted to Jet age, with the exception of the Super marine Attackers, every fast jet the PAF inducted, it used in operations and they delivered for their period. Realising the potential of the A-5, even they aren't yet scrapped and kept in storage. The F-86s and F-104s won laurels in '65 again in '71 they held more than their own, Mirages were in a class of their own. Under the sanctions, Kargil was not a good time for the PAF but it still managed defensive sorties and also gained locks on Indian Fulcrums. On the contrary can the other side claim the same satisfaction with their, Vampires, Hunters, Gnats or SU-7s or even their MiGs and Jaguars...today PAF is in a much more potent force than it has ever been, what it inducts, it utilises it for the purpose. Buying big and expensive aircraft just to enjoy watching them dance in the sky is an ego we rather live without.....but as they say, grass is greener on the other side. !!!!

Windy,

The enemy---because of its size and support---can make 10 mistakes and will survive---but when you are a smaller nation and not too many friends around---your forces cannot make mistakes.

After the first F16 deal---the paf has not been able to come out of the hole and that is too long of a time.

The sanctions happened because you did not have an alternate aircraft---as you were told many a times----instead of going for the F16's second time---you should have bought the mirage 2k's for the second batch.

You were given the warning by many people---but you did not listen---. There would have been no sanctions if you had gotten the mirage 2 k's.

Just like---if you have a parallel platform to the F16's---the talk of the sanctions will dissipate.

The 65 war you did good because you had superior equipment than the enemy---you did good in the 71 war because your equipment was still good and pilots well trained---.

Now on all the fronts the enemy has better equipment in much larger numbers and enemy pilots are no fools either---.

We are tired of this sob story of the paf---.

Israelis had sanctions on them many a times---but they also came thru---they had a game plan and strategy.

Ask any israelis on this board----how their grand parents bought weapons in and around 1948 and what hardships they had to face and how they overcame those issues---.

 

[ravi gupta]

the point what MK want to make that if they capability atleast we will diverse our resourses to those critical target,however as of now we know and he know that PAF does not have that capabailities to hit MUMBAI.so now sitting in Mumbai i can feel safe.

 

[Tameem]

I thinks, PAF is not in a hole, its leadership not just passing the bucks at all and instead showing extreme maturity and thoughtfulness in its decisions all along specially when it comes to securing and maintaining minimum credible deterrence against our arch enemy.

At the same time i believes, It might be the economic conditions of the country overall which effecting certain decision making but "Finance" alone is clearly not a major hurdle in securing major fighter (Something Like 4++) deal. If PAF decides any plane today, Finance can be "Arranged" to the very next if not at ease then might be with some economic hardship for nation but its availability to "decision makers" will not be a problem and we have a history of such kind of behaviors all along.

The slackness we are witnessing in reaching or starting to secure a major fighter deal, is more of a political nature, a tactical wisdom in play to sane analysis and pure "Intentional".

The reason of all this drama playing out before us is the direct result of "Elephant in the room" delays in MMRCA deal India is trying to secure since 2001. This is effecting our critical decision making at least from three aspects.

1.
Both Civilian and Military Govts in Pakistan finds it bit hard to sell any idea of a Major Purchase, involving billions of dollars of the treasury to ordinary public on the streets without showing a credible and imminent threat scenario from our enemy to the east. Successful signing of MMRCA deal will gives our decision makers the required political clout to go for major purchase of their own, that is why they are waiting its completion beforehand.
2.
All Major Fighter producers in the world are in queue at India's desk at the moment, they are just dying one over another either to take a slice or the whole bread of probable a large & strategic purchase. Market is hot, there is a billionaire in it, Its absolutely unwise to divulge in such market where the same billionaire promises to go any extent in sabotaging your critical Purchase openly.
3.
From Pakistan's POV, it will be our major investment in future Air theater. It will be strategic and decisive. Our decision makers won't going towards that critical purchase without comprehensively analyzing the actual future threat scenario. Our decision makers wants our enemy to bind herself with considerable resources towards a known end, only after that they will search out and secure the required counter measures and absolutely not before that, quite pragmatic and rational in my opinion.

Therefore, i believe MK's criticism on PAF and its leadership not only too harsh but too early as well.

 

[Ark_Angel]

Hi,

Thank you for your post---. Typhoon does not do the job of a JH7B---. The JH7B's utility is more obvious and more needed now than it was in the 90's.

You have to cover your sea lanes and give protection farther out. For that you need something that can stay afloat in the air for awhile and carry a good load.

The Typhoon is not available---if it is---it is close to 140 mil a unit.

In truth---paf needs both types of aircraft---air superiority and air dominance---and then a heavy strike aircraft---if SU34 was available---I wuld say yes---but I am only talking about what is available---and not what is on the wish list---.

It is not a matter of 80's---90's or the 21st century----it is about technology---.

The upgrade on the B52 bomber and the B1 bomber have taken those aircraft to new heights.

I don't understand why you guys go suddenly blind with what has been done with these aircraft---.

All you guys are looking for is " how many G's can the aircraft take " and all the show and strut is what it is all about and it is not---.

Modern day fire control radars---weapons packages and electronic jammers and counter jammers have totally eviscerated the playing field in the favor of those who can understand the change---learn and ADAPT.

We have a 70's technology aircraft with an 80's aircraframe---this aircraft is called an F16----we had it re-furbished and upgraded---and now it is of the same standard as a new BLK52 that we bought in 2007---.

We prove it with one hand that it can be done---to an aircraft that we WORSHIP---The F16 and on the other hand---we say it cannot be done to another aircraft---because that aircraft is a piece of sh-it---.

We already proved what we could do to a piece of TU-RD---an F7M and make an F7PG out of it with 30--to 60% more capability over the original.

It is an absolute LIE and total Bull Sh-it that it cannot be done to a JH7B.

I mean to say---look at the bragging rights for the Mirage ROSE 1 2 and 3 upgrades----.

Sir, I truly do understand your view point about the SLOCs and depth and for that reason to be precise BLK-2 Thunders will be coming over where Mirages have been that is Masroor with their aerial refuelling probes. Inducting JH-7s is resource and time intensive as well as will be putting a dent on the already scarce resources. And for this reason A2A refuelling a/cs along with the improvisation of a2a refueling pods on the thunders have been done to maximise in the shortest possible time with minimumal resources. I hope you do understand that something is being done somewhere instead of nothing.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, I truly do understand your view point about the SLOCs and depth and for that reason to be precise BLK-2 Thunders will be coming over where Mirages have been that is Masroor with their aerial refuelling probes. Inducting JH-7s is resource and time intensive as well as will be putting a dent on the already scarce resources. And for this reason A2A refuelling a/cs along with the improvisation of a2a refueling pods on the thunders have been done to maximise in the shortest possible time with minimumal resources. I hope you do understand that something is being done somewhere instead of nothing.

Hi,

It is all well and good---but the refuellers will not stay up for long---they will be amongst the first casualties of war.

So---then it comes down to an aircraft that can loiter around on its own for a longer time period.

The light aircraft can only do so much.

 

[Windjammer]

Windy,

The enemy---because of its size and support---can make 10 mistakes and will survive---but when you are a smaller nation and not too many friends around---your forces cannot make mistakes.

After the first F16 deal---the paf has not been able to come out of the hole and that is too long of a time.

The sanctions happened because you did not have an alternate aircraft---as you were told many a times----instead of going for the F16's second time---you should have bought the mirage 2k's for the second batch.

You were given the warning by many people---but you did not listen---. There would have been no sanctions if you had gotten the mirage 2 k's.

Just like---if you have a parallel platform to the F16's---the talk of the sanctions will dissipate.

The 65 war you did good because you had superior equipment than the enemy---you did good in the 71 war because your equipment was still good and pilots well trained---.

Now on all the fronts the enemy has better equipment in much larger numbers and enemy pilots are no fools either---.

We are tired of this sob story of the paf---.

Israelis had sanctions on them many a times---but they also came thru---they had a game plan and strategy.

Ask any israelis on this board----how their grand parents bought weapons in and around 1948 and what hardships they had to face and how they overcame those issues---.

@MastanKhan , Sir, i know what you are saying and it's all good but please remember that while we were purchasing F-16s for around $25 M a piece, the French were asking $40M for the MK2....the PAF wanted a stripped down version for less of the cost but the French weren't playing ball.....besides their backtracking on the processing plant deal and later the submarine chapter, what's there to say the French wouldn't rock the boat. It's no secret that over the years sanctions have been a blessing in disguise, else we might still have been using Korean era equipments. There's a reason PAF loves the F-16....in some 35 years of extensive operations, we lost 8 machines, at least three of which were unavoidable, earlier i gave the example of the Jaguar, which entered IAF service a few years before the F-16s arrived in PAF.....now that's a twin engine jet and so far they have lost around 50 aircraft....without once firing in anger....and had we jumped the gun to counter the Rafale, three years later, we would be paying through the nose to counter something which is no where on the horizon. Besides it's not the PAF pilots who have to rely on some enhancement pills.

 

[Tipu7]

@MastanKhan , Sir, i know what you are saying and it's all good but please remember that while we were purchasing F-16s for around $25 M a piece, the French were asking $40M for the MK2....the PAF wanted a stripped down version for less of the cost but the French weren't playing ball.....besides their backtracking on the processing plant deal and later the submarine chapter, what's there to say the French wouldn't rock the boat. It's no secret that over the years sanctions have been a blessing in disguise, else we might still have been using Korean era equipments. There's a reason PAF loves the F-16....in some 35 years of extensive operations, we lost 8 machines, at least three of which were unavoidable, earlier i gave the example of the Jaguar, which entered IAF service a few years before the F-16s arrived in PAF.....now that's a twin engine jet and so far they have lost around 50 aircraft....without once firing in anger

.and had we jumped the gun to counter the Rafale, three years later, we would be paying through the nose to counter something which is no where on the horizon.

disagree............... That's correct that it is in our interests that Rafale never find its way to IAF ............. but it is also bad idea to sit tight and see your enemy making deals and then make yours.
IAF made clear power margin in late 90s and in 20s ...................... PAF have to narrow this gap ASAP. We just can't wait and let this margin intact just because we have excuses of lack of money?
If IAF is in bad form due to its lagging issues, then its golden opportunity for PAF to narrow down the gap As much as possible and as soon as possible................... we must not be so dependent on IAF policies, we should make our own........... and offer an offensive appraoch instead of defensive one....................

Here comes the Crucial need of Long range Bombers for bombing raid and maritime operations.................. a job which cannot be done perfectly with F16s and Thunders.............

 

[MastanKhan]

disagree............... That's correct that it is in our interests that Rafale never find its way to IAF ............. but it is also bad idea to sit tight and see your enemy making deals and then make yours.
IAF made clear power margin in late 90s and in 20s ...................... PAF have to narrow this gap ASAP. We just can't wait and let this margin intact just because we have excuses of lack of money?
If IAF is in bad form due to its lagging issues, then its golden opportunity for PAF to narrow down the gap As much as possible and as soon as possible................... we must not be so dependent on IAF policies, we should make our own........... and offer an offensive appraoch instead of defensive one....................

Here comes the Crucial need of Long range Bombers for bombing raid and maritime operations.................. a job which cannot be done perfectly with F16s and Thunders.............

Hi,

Thank you for your post.

This is what is called INDFECISION by COWARDICE----. Every Jack sh-it in the world knew that IAF will go for the Rafale---but not the paf---.

They squandered 4 years of time to decide what to get---. If the paf had gone that way---they would have been 4 years ahead of the curve---they just dared not make the decision---a lack of courage and decision making---quite abundant in the heirarchy.

Technically---there is no other aircraft that they would go for other than the russian.

Right now---they need something parallel to the F16---.

Windy---when you have a mother suffering from cancer---and the price of the medicine is 40 and you think it should be 25----then come and tell us how you let her die because you thought it was unfair to pay the extra 15----.

You think my words are painful---you have no clue when the reality hits home---.

This is what the motherland feels when you reject her security for a few bucks---. Not all can hear and feel her pain.

Those who stopped the purchase of the mirage 2 k's need to be charged with treason---properties confiscated---families expelled out of their home.

 

[randomradio]

Right now---they need something parallel to the F16---.

We have some really kick *** plans in the near future.

I would create a revolution against the air force---or they will kill me.

Why will they do that? Since when have they been concerned about public criticism from one or two people?

 

[ghazi768]

Hi,

Thank you for your post.

This is what is called INDFECISION by COWARDICE----. Every Jack sh-it in the world knew that IAF will go for the Rafale---but not the paf---.

They squandered 4 years of time to decide what to get---. If the paf had gone that way---they would have been 4 years ahead of the curve---they just dared not make the decision---a lack of courage and decision making---quite abundant in the heirarchy.

Technically---there is no other aircraft that they would go for other than the russian.

Right now---they need something parallel to the F16---.

Windy---when you have a mother suffering from cancer---and the price of the medicine is 40 and you think it should be 25----then come and tell us how you let her die because you thought it was unfair to pay the extra 15----.

You think my words are painful---you have no clue when the reality hits home---.

This is what the motherland feels when you reject her security for a few bucks---. Not all can hear and feel her pain.

Those who stopped the purchase of the mirage 2 k's need to be charged with treason---properties confiscated---families expelled out of their home.

Although I had decided not to reply to your posts as it looks clear that these are bereft of any facts or figures and at best childish. At even an inkling of a difference of opinion you end up blaming others to be licking toes or without having much brains and just toeing the official line. But may be yourself seems to be using PAF as some sort of a punching bag to vent out your desperations and disappointments.

Personally, if we end up living in a utopia than I do not care what expensive toys end up getting gathered. Strategic bombers, tactical bombers, all assortments of fighters and wanna be fighters, you name it, anything that this forum's posters are salivating about. But we live in a real world and have to weigh all options and make best choices.

How is JH7 a good option? you never answered. Just a usual harangue about charging people with treason etc. Actually the question should be when almost every one else is retiring tactical bombers why should we even induct one? Only USAF and Russia are still trying to maintain such for long in future, but USAF has retired F-111, both A which was tactical and B version which was for strategic purpose and will only use stealthy F117 for the foreseeable future. It has even disbanded its strategic bombers command and allocated its resources to remaining commands. Russian is increasing Su-34 strength but some argue that its purpose is more of strategic than tactical because of the way it has designed its cabin and ways in which it employs it in exercises. Tornados are almost retired from all Nato forces as well. All other forces are gearing more toward multi-role fighters and there are many solid reasons for that.
I can mention many issues with JH7 even as a tactical bomber such as absence of variable sweep wings, its known 'habit' of sudden shuddering and jitters in certain conditions. F111 and tornados could fly really low hugging tree tops with much more ease because of the way they were designed and certainly helped in this with excellent avionics as well but can also run away if challenged and tornados could even give some decent fight if no other option left. But most important ability of tactical bomber used to be able to RUN AWAY, because without that any such operations are just a pipe dream. you need the ability to call it a day and try some other time. The fact is that mirages we presently have are a better option than what your are to trying to peddle on this forum. They have the avionics upgraded to help them navigate well towards the objective, we have been training and flying them very low for ages now and they can run away when ever needed, actually they are good fighters in the supersonic range, their only issue now-a-days is very old airframe.
Now I hate to reply to one other aircraft you mentioned as it will lead to stupid flame wars and trolling but again you went in a diatribe about treason etc. Why is Mirage-2000 better option than f-16? is it a better a fighter, is it better at AG operation?
The fact is that not even its manufacturer claimed about its dog fighting capabilities they always mentioned great radar, hi fi avionics (as is the case with such marketing hyperbole). And usually novices start visualising Start Wars when ever reading to or listening to such hyperbole and start having wet dreams. As a fighter its performance is equivalent roughly to mirages we have, its airframe is limited to 7G. Indians claim that with a flick of a switch you CAN perform unto 9Gs. But all jet fighters are tested well above their operational limits, without software based limitations F-16 in trails handled 13G loads. Fact is that F-16 with its usual load (not clean) is know to handle 9G with ease. My opinion is that it would have been stupid to purchase 2K rather than F16. Indians can keep doing chest thumping about it, that should not concerns. I think after long long time they ACTUALLY had and aircraft which could fly without many remaining in hangers for need of repairs or radars, MAWS failing right after flying etc. and they fell in love with it, let them enjoy this love, for us this had been a routine matter for ages.
Also I am of the opinion that when it comes to JF-17, you should not try to read too much in publicly available figures, it is an excellent fighter. After long long time, we are really in a good position, having a combo of two excellent fighters which are also very decent multi-role. And can now shed worries and nightmares of sanctions induced operational curtailment, much better flexibility to reassign, re-configure force postures etc.