200 years of Kashmir and Afghanistan

[jhgmbv]

ranjeet singh and his associats were defeated by briitish in 1839.But 8 years ago in 1842 Afghanistan defeated british.

 

[Musafir117]

i wonder why the Afghans are like this ... kis ki baddua lagi hai

It's a curse land, bohat baddi baddDua lagi hui hai sorry pah@FaujiHistorian for off topic comment.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@FaujHistorian

Kashmir could have acceded to PAKISTAN only if it was NOT a princely state

Once Kashmir passed on to Sikhs and later on to Dogras the Muslim rule ended

So In 1947 The princely state of Kashmir ruled by Dogra King acceded to India

Afghanistan is another matter altogether ; no linkage to Kashmir

 

[Kambojaric]

Whats going on in Kashmir during this period (1815-1947)? Well the Dogras in Kashmir are hellbent on treating the Muslim peasent class (the majority of the populace i.e) like nothing better than cattle. Kindly refer to the excerpts below:

Practically all accounts of J&K (Jammus and Kashmir) in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries paint a grim picture of a self-absorbed, hopelesly incompetant regime and a Muslim subject population living in medieval conditions of poverty and oppression. In 1889 a visiting British dignitary, Walter Lawrence commented on the begar (indentured labor) system prevalant in the Kashmir Valley, under which Muslim serfs were forced to work without compensation for a small landid elite and state officials ...

Until 1924 there was not a single newspaper printed or published in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. Apart from mass illiteracy due to a paucity of even primary education for Muslims, the maharajah's government regarded any semblance of a free press and public opinion as subversive and regularly tried to prevent newspapers and journals published in Lahore by emigre Kashmiris from reaching the kingdom.underscoring the Hindu character of the state, until 1920 a death sentence was mandatory for any subject who slaughtered a cow. This was generously reduced to ten years in prison after 1920 and subsequently to seven years.

page 16-18, Kashmir: Roots of Conflict, Paths to Peace By Sumantra Bose

Dogra rule was marked by a strong regional bias against Kashmiris and religious discrimination against Muslims. Kashmiris were subjugated and denied the right to possess arms. The lot of Muslims was even worse: they were excluded from state services, the Muslim peasentry and industrial workers were heavily taxed, and trade, business and banking were monopolized by Punjabis and Dogras. Without access to modern education, Muslims sank into a deep distrust of rule under the Hindu Dogras.

pages 14-15, Demystifying Kashmir By Navnita Chadha Behera

The Dogras also maintained a secret fund, known as Dharmath Fund. Into this fund went money collected as tax from the Muslim cultivators; but the money was diverted to the upkeep and maintenance of Hindu temples and charities controlled by the Pandits. The Dogra misrule went unchecked for many years both before and after 1858; but from the late 1870's onwards the imperial authorties became gravely alarmed, particularly after a great famine in 1877-79 in which many thousands perished. With the British becoming more sensitive to Muslim concerns in general throughout the country, the Resident therefore began to interfere more actively in the affairs of Maharajah Pratap Sindh; and the Maharajah was divested of a number of powers between 1889 and 1905. A commission was set up in 1890 to inquire into the finances of the Daharmath Fund and eventually a compromise settlement was reached, which placed a strict limit on Hindu charities, part of the money had to be spent on public services and utility ... However most of the Hindu privileges remained undisturbed, owing to the Pandits intellectual and legal skills at defending their interests

page 191, Islamic Civilization in South Asia: A History of Muslim Power and Presence in the Indian Subcontinent by Burjor Avari

Of the 71 667 citizens of the state of Jammu and Kashmir who served in the British Indian forces during World War II, 60 402 were Muslims from the traditional recruiting ground of Poonch and Mirpur. After the war, the Maharajah alarmed at the increasing agitation against his government, refused to accept them into the army. When they returned to their farms, the found "nor a land fit for heroes, but fresh taxes, more onerous than ever ...

In the Spring of 1947, the Poonchis had mounted a 'no tax'campaign. The Maharajah responded by strengthening his garrisons in Poonch with Sikhs and Hindus. In July he ordered all Muslims in the district to hand over their weapons to the authorities. But, as communal tension spread, the Muslims were angered when the same weapons appeared in the hands of Hindu sand Sikhs. They therefore sought fresh weapons from the tribes in the North West Frontier who were well known for their manufacture of arms ...

'Certain it is that the Maharajah's government was using its Dogra troops to terrorize many Muslim villages in the neighbourhood of Jammu' wrote Horace Alexander. 'Later in the year, I myself saw villages near Jammu that had been completely gutted'.

pages 41-43, Kashmir in Conflict: India, Pakistan and the Unending War By Victoria Schofield

They were hunted down like wild beasts in every direction and massacred without pity, men and women alike. At length Gulab Singh ordered the women to be spared and kept as prisoners with the army, and there was soon to be seen following each division a troop of half-clothed starving female, driven like cattle by day, and at night penned in a thorn enclosure, and exposed to the utmost brutality of the soldiery. Only a few hundred of these women out of several thousand reach Jammu. These, with the exception of a few of the handsomest reserved for Gulab Singh's zanana were sold as slaves.

page 41, Marriage Among Muslims: Preference and Choice in Northern Pakistan By Hastings Donnan

The above event took place after a Muslim uprising in Murree against Dogra rule.

_____________________________________________________

All in all to put it in a crude way it was a crap time to be a Muslim in Kashmir and the adjoining areas. Afghanistan was the other way around afaik. Kafrisitan for example was "transformed" to Nuristan during this period.

 

[FaujHistorian]

i wonder why the Afghans are like this ... kis ki baddua lagi hai

Nah.

There is no "Bu-dua" or "Khush-Dua" for anyone.

We all are product of our geography AND the previous 200 years of history.

@FaujHistorian

Kashmir could have acceded to PAKISTAN only if it was NOT a princely state

Bhai Jan,

Why did you post this statement here in this thread? just curious.

@FaujHistorian

Afghanistan is another matter altogether ; no linkage to Kashmir

Actually not!

Many Bharatis and Pakistanis do not understand the historical link between Afghanistan and Kashmir.

Please study history of the areas that are now Kashmir, Pakistan, and Afghanistan from 1815AD onwards.

Thank you

 

[Stephen Cohen]

We all are product of our geography AND the previous 200 years of history.

You are right

The British sold Kashmir to Dogras to recover the money spent in the
Anglo Sikh war ; they sold it for Rs 75 Lakhs

BTW what do you think would have happened if Kashmir was a British territory

Where would they have drawn the Radcliffe line

Bhai Jan,

Why did you post this statement here in this thread? just curious.

You are not analysing this subject just for academic purpose

It is with reference to Pakistan

And the thing is that I do not dispute Pakistani claims to Kashmir

You have a valid point ; But the thing is

India NEEDS Kashmir much MORE than Pakistan

Kashmir gives us strategic depth

Otherwise Pakistan's borders come even closer to India ie Punjab
will be surrounded on three sides

and Himachal Pradesh will become surrounded by Pakistan and China

Pakistan and China can encircle India

Strategic depth concept was first used by India by capturing Kashmir

Could you open a thread on this topic

India Kashmir and Strategic depth theory

 

[mujhaidind]

Afghans and Kashmiris are total opposite. The former are aggressive and the latter are submissive. So the history of the region is totally different.

 

[AshishDelhi]

Afghanistan was perhaps the first place where modern Islamic jihad took place courtesy USA Pakistan and Arab.
It was a stupendous success for islamists where islamists from Pakistan Afghanistan Arab etc fought for same cause.
After the success there islamists moved to Kashmir.. Arabs pakis afghans fought against Indian army but could not gain anything. Lot many lives lost, region radicalized, minority displaced.
These 2 events tell us that if a major force uses islamists as proxy then they can be successful else if Pakistan like small country uses them then they wouldn't make much difference and might risk some self damage.
So unless USA China or Russia back these islamists they do not stand any chance.
Major powers are not interested in middle east mess. So that's why islamists thrive there. Islamic countries are confused and can never clean up mess on their own. If someone else helps then they start blaming them.
Future of Afghanistan and Kashmir depends on India and China. Both are expected to be more powerful in this century, and if both deal with islamists strictly then region might see peace but Pakistan could be deal breaker. Hope China controls it well.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Afghanistan was perhaps the first place where modern Islamic jihad took place courtesy USA Pakistan and Arab.
It was a stupendous success for islamists where islamists from Pakistan Afghanistan Arab etc fought for same cause.
After the success there islamists moved to Kashmir.. Arabs pakis afghans fought against Indian army but could not gain anything. Lot many lives lost, region radicalized, minority displaced.
These 2 events tell us that if a major force uses islamists as proxy then they can be successful else if Pakistan like small country uses them then they wouldn't make much difference and might risk some self damage.
So unless USA China or Russia back these islamists they do not stand any chance.
Major powers are not interested in middle east mess. So that's why islamists thrive there. Islamic countries are confused and can never clean up mess on their own. If someone else helps then they start blaming them.
Future of Afghanistan and Kashmir depends on India and China. Both are expected to be more powerful in this century, and if both deal with islamists strictly then region might see peace but Pakistan could be deal breaker. Hope China controls it well.

"militant Jihad" was used in many other regions before Afghanistan.

 

[AshishDelhi]

"militant Jihad" was used in many other regions before Afghanistan.

The current Islamic jihad all over Asia and Africa can be traced back to Afghanistan. Ofcourse there are many other factors, many things happened before Afghanistan but Afghanistan recipe has been used by states like Pakistan and non state actors like Isis.
Local support in name of Islam, foreign fighters, media usage, radicalization, local conflicts, stories of martyrdom, heaven n hoors, pumping money to ideology and fighters etc etc. This is what i see common in Afghanistan and Indian Kashmir.

 

[FaujHistorian]

The current Islamic jihad all over Asia and Africa can be traced back to Afghanistan. Ofcourse there are many other factors, many things happened before Afghanistan but Afghanistan recipe has been used by states like Pakistan and non state actors like Isis.
Local support in name of Islam, foreign fighters, media usage, radicalization, local conflicts, stories of martyrdom, heaven n hoors, pumping money to ideology and fighters etc etc. This is what i see common in Afghanistan and Indian Kashmir.

That's the view of those with superficial Western viewpoint. So many Bharatis eat this without questioning. Sadly.

If you understood the mechanism of spontaneous gang uprising in poorly controlled areas, you would know that Bhuddists, Christians, Hindus, and Islamists all are capable of militancy.

You know that Mexico lost as many to drug gangs as we did to Islamist gangs in Pakistan?
you know Burma lost 1000s more to Buddhist gangs than we did to Islamist gangs?
you know Rawanda, Burundi, Sierra Leon lost 10s of 1000s more to Christian gangs than we did to Islamists gangs in Pakistan?


you will understand this if you go beyond the use of 10th grade school level analysis.


peace

 

[rockstar08]

Nah.

There is no "Bu-dua" or "Khush-Dua" for anyone.

We all are product of our geography AND the previous 200 years of history.

they should stop breeding so Afghans go Extinct that will be biggest Achievement from Afghans to this world

 

[AshishDelhi]

That's the view of those with superficial Western viewpoint. So many Bharatis eat this without questioning. Sadly.

If you understood the mechanism of spontaneous gang uprising in poorly controlled areas, you would know that Bhuddists, Christians, Hindus, and Islamists all are capable of militancy.

You know that Mexico lost as many to drug gangs as we did to Islamist gangs in Pakistan?
you know Burma lost 1000s more to Buddhist gangs than we did to Islamist gangs?
you know Rawanda, Burundi, Sierra Leon lost 10s of 1000s more to Christian gangs than we did to Islamists gangs in Pakistan?


you will understand this if you go beyond the use of 10th grade school level analysis.


peace

I have not commented on naxalites, Mexicans or Burmese. I have just mentioned how afghan and Kashmir conflicts are related.
Kashmiris might not be historically radical society but religious radicalization once started is hard to wipe off...Pakistan knows this too. Again China and India can contain radicalization of Afghanistan Pakistan Xinjiang Kashmir. May be not now but in other 10-20 years these 2 will play more imp role than NATO in this region.