20 most decisive battles of the world.

[meghdut]

I would like to add a lesser known, but in my opinion an extremely significant battle. The battle of Khalkin Gol, fought between Red Army and Imperial Japanese Army in 1939. Japanese military was divided between northward looking and southward looking factions the former wanted to expand towards China-Russia and the later wanted to expand towards Pacific-US. The battle of Khalkin Gol was a test of the Northerner's theory. Japan was decisively defeated in that conflict and suffered huge causalities. Afterwards Russo-Japanese relations improved and Japan remained passive when Operation Barbarossa was unleashed on Russia. Had Japan won Khalkin-Gol battle she might be tempted to launch offensive into Russia in conjunction with the Germans, which could have potentially catastrophic consequence for Russia who would be unable to withdraw her Eastern border armies, who were decisive in blunting and then throwing back the Germans during battle of Moscow. With active Japanese participation with Germany Russia may well have collapsed in WWII

 

[Joe Shearer]

Nice! Zhukov's first step and his first Hero of the Soviet Union!

Hope AUSTERLITZ-garu likes it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Meghdut:

Looks like only the two of us are looking at it. The big kahuna is away elsewhere, and we have to manage on our own. Now, the problem is that taking for granted that I am not slung out by the seat of my trousers, and my suggestions are accepted, we have the 30 strategic battles formed up in dense column and marching away to beat of drum. Here they are (you could put in the few dates I've been too lazy to do):

1. Salamis.480 BC.
2. Hydaspes, 326 BC
3. Metaurus 207 BC.
4. Actium.
5. Teutoburg Forest 9AD
6. Chalons, 451 AD,
7. Lechfeld, 955 AD
8. Yarmouk 636.
9. Tours 732.
10. Orleans 1429.
11. Constantinopole 1453.
12. Vienna 1529.
13. Gravelines 1588.
14. Blenheim 1704.
15. Breitenfeld, 1631,
16. Poltava.
17. Plassey. 1757
18. The Plains Of Abraham, 1759 AD,
19. Saratoga.
20. Valmy.
21. Trafalgar
22. Leipzig.
23. Sedan 1871.
24. Tsushima, 1905,
25. Marne 1914
26. Megiddo, 1918,
27. Britain 1940.
28. Stalingrad
29. Moscow.
30. Kohima, 1944


Now, question for you; what kind of scoring system might we give it to check which ones belong in there, and if any one has to drop out for the Khalkhin Gol.

All this assumes, of course, that the Chinese, Japanese, Mongols, Africans and north and south Americans of native descent did not exist and do not count.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Back.Very nice list.But kohima isn't decisiv,japan was already beaten at that point.
Accept tshushima for japanese influence and growing colonial asian confidence that european militaries could be defeated.
Quebec nice choice.
Also breitenfield without this no protestantism and holy roman empire's weakness,or rise of france againsat a divided germany.
Same megiddo.
Also before khalkin gol,consider hastings.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Back.Very nice list.But kohima isn't decisiv,japan was already beaten at that point.
Accept tshushima for japanese influence and growing colonial asian confidence that european militaries could be defeated.
Quebec nice choice.
Also breitenfield without this no protestantism and holy roman empire's weakness,or rise of france againsat a divided germany.
Same megiddo.
Also before khalkin gol,consider hastings.

He's back!

Big Chief, why don't you do most decisive battles and best battles for the sub-continent? And/or for east Asia? These are both hugely neglected, except that you might decide against a south Asian set for the sake of peace and quiet!

If you do one on the east Asians, our Chinese friends can get involved, and we could get a lot of insight into areas we hardly know about.

Just a thought.

I'm sick of social and political threads, and want to withdraw totally, and concentrate only on military strategy and military technology.

 

[meghdut]

Meghdut:

Looks like only the two of us are looking at it. The big kahuna is away elsewhere, and we have to manage on our own. Now, the problem is that taking for granted that I am not slung out by the seat of my trousers, and my suggestions are accepted, we have the 30 strategic battles formed up in dense column and marching away to beat of drum. Here they are (you could put in the few dates I've been too lazy to do):

1. Salamis.480 BC.
2. Hydaspes, 326 BC
3. Metaurus 207 BC.
4. Actium.
5. Teutoburg Forest 9AD
6. Chalons, 451 AD,
7. Lechfeld, 955 AD
8. Yarmouk 636.
9. Tours 732.
10. Orleans 1429.
11. Constantinopole 1453.
12. Vienna 1529.
13. Gravelines 1588.
14. Blenheim 1704.
15. Breitenfeld, 1631,
16. Poltava.
17. Plassey. 1757
18. The Plains Of Abraham, 1759 AD,
19. Saratoga.
20. Valmy.
21. Trafalgar
22. Leipzig.
23. Sedan 1871.
24. Tsushima, 1905,
25. Marne 1914
26. Megiddo, 1918,
27. Britain 1940.
28. Stalingrad
29. Moscow.
30. Kohima, 1944


Now, question for you; what kind of scoring system might we give it to check which ones belong in there, and if any one has to drop out for the Khalkhin Gol.

All this assumes, of course, that the Chinese, Japanese, Mongols, Africans and north and south Americans of native descent did not exist and do not count.

Sorry sir, took a long time to reply. Couldn't get time enough. I'm not aware of all the battles you mentioned and have to read up . Would be grateful if you could provide some reading suggestions. I dont think any battle of the period can be dropped for Khalkin Gol. It's influence was implied not direct. Kohima I would replace with Midway. I agree with Austerlitz on this point. But Midway was really the turning point of Pacific war, which ultimately affected Japanese actions elsewhere. In Midway Japan lost a major portion of her Carrier Fleet, which was centerpiece of Japanese naval power projection. Afterwards Japan could not provide the level of carrier operations she did before Midway.

 

[SherAli]

That list is by far the most laughable thing I've ever read


Hydaspes is disputed and meant absolutely nothing ... pathological greek liars claimed that he won but all of the evidence shows otherwise


Badr, Yarmouk, Firoz, Salamis (I will admit this one although the world is a much worst place because of it), the campaigns of Kurus (Cyrus the Great) are at the top since they've shaped the world to this day

The next tier are battles like the Second Siege of Constantinople, the Battle of Vienna, the Battle of Plassey, the battles of Tarrain, the Battle of Qasr al Kabir, Manzikert (whole roman military nearly destroyed while outnumbering the Turks as much as 4 to 1), and the euro genocides in the americas

Chalons is another battle that meant nothing as it is also a disputed euro victory, a stalemate at best ... the Huns still went back after that battle and sacked every city in Italy north of Rome and Rome itself was next until the pope begged Attila to leave it

In 1529 eastern europes weather won the battle against the Turks more than anything

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Iadmit list needs revision.
Hydaspes,chalons were hardly decisive.
Replace with tarain and manzikert.
Plassey is already on the list.At 1529 vienna,it was much more decisive because the defeat there would have entered the gates of europe to the ottomans ,france wasn't strong then.England was weak.The holy roman empire was the centre of european power.By 1693 ottomans tide had been weathered ,the capture of vienna would have meant butchery and destruction but nothing more.

The ottomans had to beat a retreat anytime the europeans chose to.Beyond them stood france of louis xiv, the strongest military power in the world and its massive and disciplined army.Actually had it not been for french diversion the imperial army would not be held up and the turks would probably be intercepted far earlier.So 1529 is right choice.

Yarmouk is also in the list.

 

[Cem_]

Battle of Manzikert 1071, largest Roman empire army deployed ever in the East and West (200 000) vs 30 000 Seljuk Turks lead by Alparslan Ghazi.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I don't like religion-centric lists.

Come to think of it, I don't like religion-centric posters and their posts.

 

[VCheng]

I don't like religion-centric lists.

Come to think of it, I don't like religion-centric posters and their posts.

Come to think of it, I think I agree with your post!

 

[SherAli]

Iadmit list needs revision.
Hydaspes,chalons were hardly decisive.
Replace with tarain and manzikert.
Plassey is already on the list.At 1529 vienna,it was much more decisive because the defeat there would have entered the gates of europe to the ottomans ,france wasn't strong then.England was weak.The holy roman empire was the centre of european power.By 1693 ottomans tide had been weathered ,the capture of vienna would have meant butchery and destruction but nothing more.

The ottomans had to beat a retreat anytime the europeans chose to.Beyond them stood france of louis xiv, the strongest military power in the world and its massive and disciplined army.Actually had it not been for french diversion the imperial army would not be held up and the turks would probably be intercepted far earlier.So 1529 is right choice.

Yarmouk is also in the list.

I think what constitutes a battle of make this list is the "what if" question

If world history changes dramatically then it is a decisive battle

Which is why the religious battles I mentioned that the likes of "Joe Shearer" "dislike" are so decisive (I could say the same about the eurocentric lists people keep throwing out). The Greeks surviving the Persians also makes these kinds of lists because the world would certainly look different if they had been conquered by the Persians.

Battles like Carrhae also need to be on that list as they checked Roman expansionism and give them a crushing defeat that they really hadn't experienced and triggered a 600 year long never ending war between the Persians and Romans.

Ayn Jalut a VERY important battle is not on that list either. The Mamluks check the advancing Mongols for the first time in history. Haters will claim it was only a portion of the full Mongol army but the Mamluks won the Mamluk Mongol war when they returned to battle after the death of Ogedei Khan. Also if Tours was considered a minor raid by the Muslims makes that list then Ayn Jalut certainly needs to make that list.

Also I agree that 1529 was more important. The wars of Charlemagne also need to be on that list since he was able to force convert the germans to christianity through them.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Ain jalut had been in my original list i think.
As for carrhae romans actually conquered parthia under severus and trajan but found that tehy couldn't hold them not beacuse of parthian military power but because they were too overextended to maintain a permanent control.

 

[SherAli]

Parthian military system wasn't effective against the Romans

Most of the time they were outnumbered but did manage to stalemate them for most of their wars. Sassanids were much more successful and were able to seriously put a beating on the Byzantines.

The Romans were able to sack the Parthian capital but were never able to defeat them completely.

Battle of Midway also needs to be on that list since it turned umerikkka into what it is today. Or at least was a major reason for it.

 

[haviZsultan]

Battle of Manzikert 1071, largest Roman empire army deployed ever in the East and West (200 000) vs 30 000 Seljuk Turks lead by Alparslan Ghazi.

I agree. The battle of manzikert should be there somewhere. Maybe even the battle of tours where huge Muslim army was defeated by franks.