2*MIG 35 >> RAFALE/EFT

[tvsram1992]

My Brother

MIG 35 intregated with Isreal and French Technologies = approx $ 65 million.

Russian don't want French or Isreali Engg Touch MIG 35 they want to do all integration so cost adds up (Logistic Transportation)

Russian are already Happy with us (Figrates, Submarines, Aircarft carrier, Main battle tank (T90), FGFA, Medium Transport Aircraft, Technologies etc)

American (M777 ultralight howitzer, C-130J Hercules cargo planes, C-17 Globemaster transport aircraft, P-81 maritime reconnaissance planes, Harpoon Block III anti-ship missiles, Javelin anti-tank guided missiles, USS Trenton Boeing's AH-64D Apache Longbow, Technologies etc)

Isreal (Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control Systems, Air defence system (Sypder, Iron Dome, barak) Radars, Technologies etc)

French (Submarines, Upgrades, Technologies)

so now its chance for European now we spend some euros

technologies include both avionics as well as weapons
any way we ve 2 buy weapons for millions , spend them for upgrades and weapons togeather
do u think that cost of rafale/eft would be same .
it generally increases at rate of 22% a year
save the euros and later spend it for other aircraft

 

[tvsram1992]

2 Mig 35's are not better than a single Rafale or a Typhoon.

Two aircraft will require twice the maintenance, twice the amount of ammunition, fuel, and spares.

twice the no.,twice the advantage in a2a combat and ground attack missions.

So in the long run, they will be at least twice as expensive as a ginel fighter, and taking into account the maintenance issues with Russian hardware it is safe to assume that 2 Mig-35 will have 3 times more maintenance cost as compared to a single Rafale or Typhoon.


Then comes the question of combat abilities, weapons package, and sensors. Rafale and Typhoon beat the Mig-35 in all these parameters. The Typhoon will see Mig-35 first, will have the shoot first option, and with longer ranged, more accurate missiles like the Meteor, will score a kill before the two Migs can close in.

sir,
do u think 2 *mig35 with aesa radars couldnt detect eft before being detected?
Moreover at long range a2a combat migs can escape from bvr missiles by flying at mach speeds greater than 2.
I dont think a2a missile fired from eft could engage and destroy fast coming/escaping mig. mig 35is known for high speeds > mach2
even mig35 has low rcs as eft.
while at close dog fight no body can disagree the fact migs would be in upper side being most manuverable fighter than f22,su30mki as it is worlds 1st aircraft with 3d thrust vectoring controls.


yes the maintainance costs can be high but during a real time war this is a very small issue

 

[tvsram1992]

Su 30 MKi has a much higher chance than the Mig-35 due to a much more powerful radar (after upgrade). It has a higher chance to come out alive, but even then Typhoon > MKI.

MKI can down a Typhoon if it comes to dogfighting, but on a long range, I don't think so.

then down the mki deal as each mki costs $110million in 2010.
buy eft and mig 35 as mig 35 is more maneuverable than su30mki ,
su30mki has very high rcs ,2 migs can carry much payload than 1 su30mki.

 

[tvsram1992]

friend can you tell me how we will be able to use engines of MKI which is heavy air Superiority fighter into MIG 35 which is medium multi role fighter? al 31FP must be large. i agree that mkising of MIG 35 is possible.

we cannot fix engine of medium weight aircraft for heavy class but reverse is possible. su30 engine gives more than required thrust if fitted for mig's.

 

[tvsram1992]

MKI does have a PESA BARS radar for now, but the upgrade is being decided. It will not have the radar from the Mig-35, but the same radar will be upscaled to 0.97 meter diameter, from 0.6 meter diameter.

That will increase the T/R elements by almost double, increasing the range, and power of the radar.

The same radar when used in Mig-35 has a smaller diameter of .6 m which reduces the T/R elements thereby reducing the range of the radar.

So when Zhuk-AE radar is used in the MKI, it will be twice as effective as it is in the Mig-35. And that will make the MKI way more lethal, and as we know, it is already more maneuverable.

yes it ll be twice effective but its high rcs of 20sqm makes other aircraft to detect it at long distances, but with zhuk radar it can detect low rcs aircraft like rafale even at longer distances
agreed but mig35 will be more maneuverable than su30mki as it performns 3d thrust vectoring and su30mki,f22 uses 2d vectoring.

 

[tvsram1992]

i feel Gripen has the high chance of getting the deal.....

1:Lowest cost...
2:Giving the complete TOT including AESA
3:partneship with HAL for LCA mk2 as well as AMCA

gripen is lost as iaf wants tejas mk2 to be gripen standard

 

[jagjitnatt]

sir,
do u think 2 *mig35 with aesa radars couldnt detect eft before being detected?

2-3-4 no matter how many, all Mig-35s will detect EFT at the same time, at the same range. But the EFT will detect the Mig-35s pretty early.

Moreover at long range a2a combat migs can escape from bvr missiles by flying at mach speeds greater than 2.
I dont think a2a missile fired from eft could engage and destroy fast coming/escaping mig. mig 35is known for high speeds > mach2
even mig35 has low rcs as eft.

Missiles can not be evaded with high speeds, the missiles fly at speeds Mach 4-5, which are way higher than Mach 2.

while at close dog fight no body can disagree the fact migs would be in upper side being most manuverable fighter than f22,su30mki as it is worlds 1st aircraft with 3d thrust vectoring controls.

Yes, dogfights are where Migs will shine. But the tough part is getting into a dogfight. If EFT doesn't allow Migs to come close, then it is a problem.

yes the maintainance costs can be high but during a real time war this is a very small issue

its a small issue, but maintenance is not just about costs, but also about faults, availability of spares, availability of aircraft for service.
If an aircraft develops fault more often, it won't be available for service in war, at that will cost a lot, not monetarily.

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

Mig 35 is still 3-5 yrs away from operational clearance. we want operational fighters like EF/rafale as our strength of combat squadrons is absymmally low. if we delay procurement now it will further come down.

 

[luckyyy]

2-3-4 no matter how many, all Mig-35s will detect EFT at the same time, at the same range. But the EFT will detect the Mig-35s pretty early.

what is the radar range of EFT ...?ok , make a wild guess now about detection range of radars of mig-35 and EFT...as it's a classified information..

Yes, dogfights are where Migs will shine. But the tough part is getting into a dogfight. If EFT doesn't allow Migs to come close, then it is a problem.

with EWS missile lock jamming , your are bound to get in close dogfight situation..

 

[jagjitnatt]

yes it ll be twice effective but its high rcs of 20sqm makes other aircraft to detect it at long distances, but with zhuk radar it can detect low rcs aircraft like rafale even at longer distances

MKi can be detected at long distances. Yes.

But how will Zhuk-AE detect Rafale at longer distance???

agreed but mig35 will be more maneuverable than su30mki as it performns 3d thrust vectoring and su30mki,f22 uses 2d vectoring.

3d TVC doesn't mean it has to be more maneuverable than 2d TVC, the airframe plays a very important role here. The Su 30 airframe is a lot better than the Mig airframe, and it makes it more maneuverable than the Mig-35.

Also 3D TVC isn't a radical improvement over 2D TVC. Here's why:

The aircraft is highly maneuverable in its pitch axis due to the huge control surfaces on its wings, and the lift generated by the fuselage. The TVC system acts as another control element. In the aircraft the yaw control surfaces are very small and ineffective. The only yaw control surface are the vertical stabilizers. The addition of TVC doesn't make a huge difference to the maneuverability in yaw axis.

To turn left or right, TVC or vertical stabilizers are not used, rather the aircraft is rolled in left or right direction and then its pitch control surfaces are used to direct it in the direction in which the pilot intends to go. So the advantage of 3D TVC is minimal when compared to 2D TVC.

 

[jagjitnatt]

what is the radar range of EFT ...?ok , make a wild guess now about detection range of radars of mig-35 and EFT...as it's a classified information..

I won't point you to other forums since its against the rules of PDF, but a little googling will get you pretty close to your answer.

with EWS missile lock jamming , your are bound to get in close dogfight situation..

If you knew how tough it is to jam a missile locking system, you'd not even consider it as an option here.

Missile jamming systems don't work against every aircraft, it only works against radars, which the jamming system was designed to work against. There is no jamming device right now that can jam Typhoon's radar, cause its operating frequencies are unknown to outside world.

This is the reason MKI didn't use its radar in RedFlag 2008. Even BARS radar's frequencies are classified and unknown, and it can not be jammed.

 

[sancho]

what is the radar range of EFT ...?ok , make a wild guess now about detection range of radars of mig-35 and EFT...as it's a classified information..

Our Mig 29Ks uses the Zhuk ME radar and according the brochure, it has a detection range of 120Km for a 5m2 fighter, the EF T2 uses the Captor M radar and is said to have a detection range of 160Km for a similar size fighters (bigger fighters even up to 185Km). I guess that gives you a hint on the difference between their AESA radar versions, not to forget that the early Zhuk AE did not met IAF requirements and they had to upgrade it.
In A2A against a Mig 35, the EF has all advantages on it's side:

- bigger and more capable radar
- clearly lower RCS
- longer more capable BVR and WVR missiles
- SC capability
- higher TWR

 

[duhastmish]

- a family of 2 is better than a family of 10 .

you can upgrade them well

you can train your pilot better.

you get better stats to go with fighter

you running cost is less

you dont over depand on russia.

most importantly - you can finally give IAF what they want.

 

[angeldemon_007]

PLease guys share the basic information related to aesa of all the fighters, especially Typhoon and Rafale. I mean the range of the radar and the number of enemies it can detect and simultaneously engage.

Thanx in advance.

 

[luckyyy]

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