2*MIG 35 >> RAFALE/EFT

[jagjitnatt]

if that's the case then even su-30mki has no chance against Typhoon....
but that actually ture...not

Su 30 MKi has a much higher chance than the Mig-35 due to a much more powerful radar (after upgrade). It has a higher chance to come out alive, but even then Typhoon > MKI.

MKI can down a Typhoon if it comes to dogfighting, but on a long range, I don't think so.

 

[IND151]

by tvsram1992

Originally Posted by Royan
Biggest Problem.........
IAF finds the Mig-35 Engine to be"Under-powered"

Yes its true but u can say it will be better than IAF's mig 29 nah.
By mkising it we can get engine developed or new engine for that. Russia sent it with temporary engine to india to make it survive in the deal. New engine can be taken from flankers or........
its maximum take-off weight has increased by 30 percent which exceeds its previous criteria of classification.
It has aesa radar also.
The airframe lifetime and its service life have been extended and it is fitted with new engines with longer mean time between overhauls (MTBO), resulting in a decrease in flight-hour cost of almost 2.5 times compared to those of the old variants. The new engines are now smokeless and include a FADEC type electronic control system for better performance. All aspect vector nozzles which had been demonstrated on MiG-29OVT are also optional.

friend can you tell me how we will be able to use engines of MKI which is heavy air Superiority fighter into MIG 35 which is medium multi role fighter? al 31FP must be large. i agree that mkising of MIG 35 is possible.

 

[baker]

i feel Gripen has the high chance of getting the deal.....

1:Lowest cost...
2:Giving the complete TOT including AESA
3:partneship with HAL for LCA mk2 as well as AMCA

 

[luckyyy]

Su 30 MKi has a much higher chance than the Mig-35 due to a much more powerful radar (after upgrade). It has a higher chance to come out alive, but even then Typhoon > MKI.

MKI can down a Typhoon if it comes to dogfighting, but on a long range, I don't think so.

mig-35 has a AESA radar and su-30mki has a PESA radar...IAF planing to put the mig-35 radar on su-30mki upgrade.....

other then range and payload , mig-35 is far superior to su-30mki..

 

[jagjitnatt]

mig-35 has a AESA radar and su-30mki has a PESA radar...IAF planing to put the mig-35 radar on su-30mki upgrade.....

other then range and payload , mig-35 is far superior to su-30mki..

MKI does have a PESA BARS radar for now, but the upgrade is being decided. It will not have the radar from the Mig-35, but the same radar will be upscaled to 0.97 meter diameter, from 0.6 meter diameter.

That will increase the T/R elements by almost double, increasing the range, and power of the radar.

The same radar when used in Mig-35 has a smaller diameter of .6 m which reduces the T/R elements thereby reducing the range of the radar.

So when Zhuk-AE radar is used in the MKI, it will be twice as effective as it is in the Mig-35. And that will make the MKI way more lethal, and as we know, it is already more maneuverable.

 

[luckyyy]

MKI does have a PESA BARS radar for now, but the upgrade is being decided. It will not have the radar from the Mig-35, but the same radar will be upscaled to 0.97 meter diameter, from 0.6 meter diameter.

That will increase the T/R elements by almost double, increasing the range, and power of the radar.

The same radar when used in Mig-35 has a smaller diameter of .6 m which reduces the T/R elements thereby reducing the range of the radar.

So when Zhuk-AE radar is used in the MKI, it will be twice as effective as it is in the Mig-35. And that will make the MKI way more lethal, and as we know, it is already more maneuverable.

that's only coming beyond 2016, and along with Zhuk-AS/ASE , the Tikhomirov NIIP's new PAK-FA AESA, displayed publicly at MAKS 2009which NIIP have publicly cited detection range performance of 350 to 400 km , for 2.5m2 target , is also a candidate for su-30mki upgrade......

but beyond 250km , radar range is not the only criteria for a superior fighter aircraft , ...
what's the use to such a long range , you not going to fire a A2A missile at this range ...
and then the awacs will take care of the rest..

but it is not between mig-35 and su-30mki..

it' b/w mig-35 and typhhon/rafale..

what's the radar range each of these two offering that made you comment that ...

Then comes the question of combat abilities, weapons package, and sensors. Rafale and Typhoon beat the Mig-35 in all these parameters. The Typhoon will see Mig-35 first, will have the shoot first option, and with longer ranged, more accurate missiles like the Meteor, will score a kill before the two Migs can close in.

like to know the A2A missile which can shoot a aircraft at 250km range..?

 

[jagjitnatt]

that's only coming beyond 2016, and along with Zhuk-AS/ASE , the Tikhomirov NIIP's new PAK-FA AESA, displayed publicly at MAKS 2009which NIIP have publicly cited detection range performance of 350 to 400 km , for 2.5m2 target , is also a candidate for su-30mki upgrade......

Zhuk-AE is still in development stages, the one shown is a prototype, and the electronics are still being worked on. The software aspect of it is still in early stages.
The N050 radar to be installed on the PakFa is also in development stages and won't be available before 2016.

Till that time, the AESA variants of CAPTOR will be available, and we will go for the AESA variant since AESA is a requirement of our MRCA tender.

but beyond 250km , radar range is not the only criteria for a superior fighter aircraft , ...
what's the use to such a long range , you not going to fire a A2A missile at this range ...
and then the awacs will take care of the rest..

There is nothing like a 250 km range. The range of the radar depends on the target rcs. If the target has an rcs of 0.01 sq meter, you can not detect it at 250 kms, regular radars will detect it at only 20-30 kms, which is too dangerous, so we need huge radars, which can detect conventional aircraft at 200-250 kms, and LO aircraft at 70-80 kms.

The role of AWACS is also being over-estimated here on this forum. AWACS can only detect and track targets, it can not guide a missile to its target, and these AWACS aircraft are operated far from the border to be safe, and their chances of detecting a LO aircraft beyond the border are very very low.

but it is not between mig-35 and su-30mki..

it' b/w mig-35 and typhhon/rafale..

what's the radar range each of these two offering that made you comment that ...

Yes, its not between Mig-35 and MKI.

The radar ranges are classified info, but there are some things we know, which can be used to compare the radars. The AESA variant of the CAPTOR radar is known to have 1425 T/R elements, this is more than twice as that of Zhuk-AE radar in Mig-35 configuration.

As it is the mechanically steered CAPTOR is reported to have very good ranges, the AESA would be a killer.

The range of Rafale's radar isn't too good. It has a medium range, comparable to Zhuk-AE. But the AESA variant has been developed and the deliveries will start within a year. This new variant claims to improve range by as much as 50%, with as many as 1000 T/R elements. So that means the new RBE2 AESA would be at least 40% more powerful than the Zhuk-AE.

like to know the A2A missile which can shoot a aircraft at 250km range..?

Do we need to??
A radar which detects an AWACS aircraft at 250 kms, will only detect the F-22 at a 8-10 kms.

What would you call it? Is the radar over powered or underpowered??

 

[tvsram1992]

I would have loved to see su35 instead of mig35 but dont know why they are not offered to India

They were offered to india. They even even approached china after india denied it.

 

[tvsram1992]

actually iaf wants to move west as russia supply weapons to china and to pakistan also.so there shud be a difference b/w the tech the nations have got.

IAF doesnt want to move west. It wants things to be done indegenously.
TOT and partnership are the best ways so rafale,gripen and migs would be in the race.
Remember for eft there is no chance of full tot. They would give us only 60% of technology involved in it and we become its official partner.

 

[tvsram1992]

EFT is more important to buy because we can partner with Britain, Italy, Germany to manufacture this fighters and also gain much needed expertise to design and manufacture AMCA and may in 2030 our own Heavy Fighter. It is not that we sideline Russia, but as Russia sidelines NATO and go on with deals with France, we should improve relations by doing this type of give and take business with Europe.

Yes it is true that our relations with the above countries would be strong. Going other than russian aircrafts may not affect relations with russia but going for european fighters would hurt Uncle SAM and other european contender seriously

which technology is better for amca and heavy weight 5g fighter
eft or fgfa?

 

[doctor_who]

when would it be ready ????

the idea to make the induction quick. although it sound a oxymoron with the amount of delay created by official to choose,

---------- Post added at 04:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 PM ----------

when would it be ready ????

the idea to make the induction quick. although it sound a oxymoron with the amount of delay created by official to choose,

 

[tvsram1992]

i think the following factors need to be considered:

1. relaibility: relaibility of russian components is not as good compared to western components.

Yes thats why we made russia our biggest defense partner.......buying t90 tanks su30 aircrafts war ships...........

2. maintainability: russian systems are difficult to maintain. they r not user friendly.
3. product support: historically speaking post 1992 russians have a really bad history of product support. which is why IAF fighters have low serviceability percentage.

while one can argue, on merits of 02 mig-35 vs EF or Rafale we need to understand, the mig 35 is still under development where as both these fighters are totally operational. also wen we look at product life cycle support Ef/rafale fare much better then Mig 35.

more than 10 prototypes of mig35 were built which is equivalent to operational status

The main advantage is time to time upgrades. How much did french ask for upgrades of mirages?
more than the flyaway cost of mig 35.

i will give u an example, mirage 2000 have excellent serviceability of around 90%. where as for su-30 it is hovering around 60%. i would rather go with a fighter with high relaibility cas in operations u look for relaibility and low turn around time. in that area EF and rafale score heavily.

also, i think indian govt is pretty cheesed with russian on gorshkov deal, they unilaterally almost doubled the price. so i think Mig-35 has very low chance of clinching the deal.

Yes this can affect mig chances.

The main advantage of russian products is we get brand new versions.
like

we bought 1st squadron of su30 as mk1 version
next squadron was mk2 type mean while 1st squadron was upgraded to mk2 version.
now we are getting mki version , meanwhile previous ones are upgraded to mki version.
mean while upgrades are taking rapidly... already exsisting su30's are also being upgraded to standard version which is being prodiced now.

 

[tvsram1992]

actually iaf wants to move west as russia supply weapons to china and to pakistan also.so there shud be a difference b/w the tech the nations have got.

did russia supply any military equipment to pakistan?
france britan america commonly called nato is main supplier of weapons to pakistan.

Though china is a bigger threat to us than pakistan, pakistan could be cruel against us and can dare to fight us to any limit where as china is developing and doesnt go for war very easily.
One terror attack like 26/11 can raise tensions b/w india and pakistan

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

Yes thats why we made russia our biggest defense partner.......buying t90 tanks su30 aircrafts war ships...........


more than 10 prototypes of mig35 were built which is equivalent to operational status
The main advantage is time to time upgrades. How much did french ask for upgrades of mirages?
more than the flyaway cost of mig 35.


Yes this can affect mig chances.

The main advantage of russian products is we get brand new versions.
like

we bought 1st squadron of su30 as mk1 version
next squadron was mk2 type mean while 1st squadron was upgraded to mk2 version.
now we are getting mki version , meanwhile previous ones are upgraded to mki version.
mean while upgrades are taking rapidly... already exsisting su30's are also being upgraded to standard version which is being prodiced now.

sorry 10 Mig -35 do not automatically correspond to operational status. operational status is achieved wen development, system integration and testing processes have been complemeted.

Mi-35 is still at least 3-5 yrs from operational clearance. if we go for Mig 35 then we cannot have full deployment of MMRCA by 2020 also.

 

[tvsram1992]

sorry 10 Mig -35 do not automatically correspond to operational status. operational status is achieved wen development, system integration and testing processes have been complemeted.

Mi-35 is still at least 3-5 yrs from operational clearance. if we go for Mig 35 then we cannot have full deployment of MMRCA by 2020 also.

ok then ill say like this
its not mig35(a new plane)
a very upgraded version of mig 29 (M2/KUB)which has been operational in many countries.

your saying is like f-16 block c/d has proved but f-16 IN yet to be proved.