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2 '45000' tons modified Vikrant aircraft carriers?

kaykay

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Guys I was reading SP's Naval forces magazine( feb-march 2014) in which there was an article about Indian naval modernisation. I was surprised to read something about 2 follow on carriers which will be 45000 tons( modified Vikrant) though there was no mention of Ins Vishaal which is altogether a different type.
Words goes exactly like this...
"The follow on programme of 2 additional IAC of 45000 tons displacement has the approval of the government."
 
That would be perfect...... Second vikrant class would take half the time to construct from scratch over his elder brother........ CSL is expecting to get one more order at least...... 3 CBG, with 1 on refit.....
 
Most logical option. Construction of new flat top will take lot of time,so far we dont even freeze vishal's propulsion,catapult & aircrafts.
 
Guys I was reading SP's Naval forces magazine( feb-march 2014) in which there was an article about Indian naval modernisation. I was surprised to read something about 2 follow on carriers which will be 45000 tons( modified Vikrant) though there was no mention of Ins Vishaal which is altogether a different type.
Words goes exactly like this...
"The follow on programme of 2 additional IAC of 45000 tons displacement has the approval of the government."
Believe it or not but our priority should be at least 50 corvettes and large patrol vessels, at least 30 frigates, 15-20 destroyers and more than 20 submarines. CBG needs these ships more in numbers which we lack currently. Maybe we need to expand GSL, MDL, GRSE, Kochin shipyard & Hindustan shipyard capacity by double if we have to be on aggressive defense posture. These small numbers are grossly insufficient. So current planned 3 CVN is more than one enough for next 20 years. What we need is the support boats of CSG.
 
Believe it or not but our priority should be at least 50 corvettes and large patrol vessels, at least 30 frigates, 15-20 destroyers and more than 20 submarines. CBG needs these ships more in numbers which we lack currently. Maybe we need to expand GSL, MDL, GRSE, Kochin shipyard & Hindustan shipyard capacity by double if we have to be on aggressive defense posture. These small numbers are grossly insufficient. So current planned 3 CVN is more than one enough for next 20 years. What we need is the support boats of CSG.
Well given the fact that in long terms we are planning to operate no less than 5 aircraft carriers, we need a good number of warships for CBG formation and other roles. There are sspeculations that after Visakhapatnam class destroyers, India might go for Battle cruisers.
 
Given the fact that INS Vishall is still on the drawing board, that means minimum 15 years from design to induction. And I guess INS Vikramaditya has a life of 20 Years ?


SO, Going for a INS vikrant class is more logical. Infact IN has always tried to count "whats in hand" and then systematically upgrade ( and loo they now have the the Best Destroyers in the world ! )unlike IA and IAF which always change the specs ( as in case ofTejas and Arjun ) .
 
NIce one @kaykay Sir
Yes @XiNiX Sir i said it here
upload_2016-1-17_11-15-36.png


upload_2016-1-17_11-16-35.png
++

Link: All Clear: India To Sign Deal For 36 Rafales This Month!!!!!!!!
Page 1 and Page 2

The issue now what i understand is the 2 way sceanario

Worst Scenario:
The IAC2 comes with EMALS, E2D hawkeye and a PACKAGED DEAL OF F35s!! A 6 squadron in the 2 Nuke ACC carrier, a 2 in standy implying 8 squadron or close 150 F35s all off the shelf..
F35s inherently will have exceptional 5th gen fighting prowess but seriously undermines our ability for a true multi role missions. For example, a per sortie cost versus turn around time will be a true indicator of how it could be a costly decision to have F35s in it.

IN is interested in EMALS and E2D hawkeye but has resisted F35 with a common line saying its not Make In India.
For any make in India by a USA jet, they require the deal overall to be around $50 Bn all inclusive guaranteeing a minimum line running for 10-15 years at a production rate of 14-16 birds a jet.. Thats why F18s offered were approximately asked for 200 jets with a overall $260 Mn approx as cost of the bird+weapons+cost over 30 years of operations.

The huge costs implies the IAC1 ACC may carry NLCA combo with perhaps MIg 29s which i believe IN does have an option to order another 40-50 birds. But our relations with Russians as of today is not so healthy as before.. Bear it in mind, MIg29K are fine bird but effectively over next 30 years when you will see quasi 5th Gen birds (5th gen without true 5th gen engines), their efficacy will not be as high. NLCA will limit the carrier ops due to it being a light fiighter for maritime roles. You can have few NLCAs every ACC for routine ops which is very economical but having a full ACC with NLCA may not be ideal scenario


Logistical scenario : NLCA, MIg29K, F35s as 3 fighters.. (not a good scenario as nothing learned from IAF)

Ideal Scenario:
MIg29K, NLCA combo in INS Vikramaditya.
IAC1, IAC1 modiefied, IAC 2 all sport Rafale M
Make In India for Rafale M
Logistical Scenario - All ACCs carry Rafale M once Vikramaditya retires. NLCA can do shore patrolling (a similar role to IAF ones) and Mig29K can help the same

Challenge:

the IAC1 design even after modifed version implies a bit lower take off weight but effectively it should be much better than Mig29Ks and LCAs.

The MAKE IN INDIA part has to start or else IN will be wary of this approach.

I said it before the next 12-15 years is the best time for IAF to acquire Rafales in large numbers and set up a MII line. IN can benefit a lot.. IAF IN combine can run a humongous 400+ Rafales from India as a whole.. It would be stupid for Dassault not to use this opportunity and similarly for French government...

May be some Indian like Tata should buy a stake in Dassault in order to push them for MII in India..
 
NIce one @kaykay Sir
Yes @XiNiX Sir i said it here
View attachment 287667

View attachment 287668++

Link: All Clear: India To Sign Deal For 36 Rafales This Month!!!!!!!!
Page 1 and Page 2

The issue now what i understand is the 2 way sceanario

Worst Scenario:
The IAC2 comes with EMALS, E2D hawkeye and a PACKAGED DEAL OF F35s!! A 6 squadron in the 2 Nuke ACC carrier, a 2 in standy implying 8 squadron or close 150 F35s all off the shelf..
F35s inherently will have exceptional 5th gen fighting prowess but seriously undermines our ability for a true multi role missions. For example, a per sortie cost versus turn around time will be a true indicator of how it could be a costly decision to have F35s in it.

IN is interested in EMALS and E2D hawkeye but has resisted F35 with a common line saying its not Make In India.
For any make in India by a USA jet, they require the deal overall to be around $50 Bn all inclusive guaranteeing a minimum line running for 10-15 years at a production rate of 14-16 birds a jet.. Thats why F18s offered were approximately asked for 200 jets with a overall $260 Mn approx as cost of the bird+weapons+cost over 30 years of operations.

The huge costs implies the IAC1 ACC may carry NLCA combo with perhaps MIg 29s which i believe IN does have an option to order another 40-50 birds. But our relations with Russians as of today is not so healthy as before.. Bear it in mind, MIg29K are fine bird but effectively over next 30 years when you will see quasi 5th Gen birds (5th gen without true 5th gen engines), their efficacy will not be as high. NLCA will limit the carrier ops due to it being a light fiighter for maritime roles. You can have few NLCAs every ACC for routine ops which is very economical but having a full ACC with NLCA may not be ideal scenario


Logistical scenario : NLCA, MIg29K, F35s as 3 fighters.. (not a good scenario as nothing learned from IAF)

Ideal Scenario:
MIg29K, NLCA combo in INS Vikramaditya.
IAC1, IAC1 modiefied, IAC 2 all sport Rafale M
Make In India for Rafale M
Logistical Scenario - All ACCs carry Rafale M once Vikramaditya retires. NLCA can do shore patrolling (a similar role to IAF ones) and Mig29K can help the same

Challenge:

the IAC1 design even after modifed version implies a bit lower take off weight but effectively it should be much better than Mig29Ks and LCAs.

The MAKE IN INDIA part has to start or else IN will be wary of this approach.

I said it before the next 12-15 years is the best time for IAF to acquire Rafales in large numbers and set up a MII line. IN can benefit a lot.. IAF IN combine can run a humongous 400+ Rafales from India as a whole.. It would be stupid for Dassault not to use this opportunity and similarly for French government...

May be some Indian like Tata should buy a stake in Dassault in order to push them for MII in India..

So the question is , can a Rafale take off with full load from an aircraft carrier without catapults?
 
Our naval aviation is already a mini airforce with 45 fourth generation jets and other goodies and about time they will be no less than a good sized airforce with close to 100 fourth generation jets( mixed of 5th gen too if IN goes for F-35s for Ins Vishaal).

So the question is , can a Rafale take off with full load from an aircraft carrier without catapults?
When its come to STOBAR, there's a catch to 'full load'. Anyway Mig-29Ks are seen with 3 drop tanks( 1200 kg, 2*800 kg), 2* kh-35s and 2* AAMs. I think this load is not bad for an anti-ship role mission.
 
Well given the fact that in long terms we are planning to operate no less than 5 aircraft carriers, we need a good number of warships for CBG formation and other roles. There are sspeculations that after Visakhapatnam class destroyers, India might go for Battle cruisers.
That's affirmative but not battle cruiser. It is enlarged destroyer with more powerful sensor and weapons load.
 

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