17 Y/O pariah Christian boy beaten to death by Muslim students in school

[Finer]

Stop ............ Messenger (Peace be upon him) wasn't here to tell prophecies, please he had bigger tasks, read Quran, the message and system proposed there is bigger than prophecies we believe in. And one of these prophecies is coming of a Imam ............ read when was the first time that Mehdi appeared with his black turban army ....... who was the person propagating this narrative and how he used it. Quran holds division and sectarianism a level above shirk ......... it is unacceptable that Messenger would say anything to encourage or make sectarianism and division as final destiny of followers of Islam.

It is nice to have philosophy with no solution to the real world. Quran is against many things, yet the sectarian wars and political ideology to further war exists in the Muslim world.

Mahdi means Righly Guided. It is title. It is not name. And there is no black Turban army. As for black army, that was aimed at Terrorist-outfit aka ISIS in Iraq which the prophesy turned out to be true.

Division and sects have no place in Quran, please tell me what literature promotes this then?

Clearly, you are having hard time to differentiate between Holy Quran and sections of Religion that is based on political ideology.

Despite Holy Quran being against many things like division, corruption, terrorism, sections, darkness, inequality and many more; yet those things exist in real world. And terrorism based on political ideology to further the sectarian wars use Religion as cover.

All those sections use Islam as designated cover to promote terrorism even though Holy Quran is against terrorism. Yet those sections furthered by political ideology do it anyways. Why do you think Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) called them 'khawarij' aka 'worst scum from hell-fire' in the first place?

Muslim world is now divided over sectarian and political ideology, yet you haven't suggested the real Islam aka corrective Islam should be imposed against billions of divided Muslim worlds against their wills.

And Holy Quran is guidance. It is suggestive at best. For example, help the poor and stop the rich from exploiting poverty. It doesn't say how. In today's word, financial benefits are implemented to help the poor which Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (R.A) invented the concept to help disadvantage people. Later, Ottoman Empire implemented the system and so did Western world. In Holy Quran, it doesn't say how. It is guidance, suggestive at best. The rest is up to us to employ the understanding as we see fit.

O five prayers argument again ........... seriously! okay then why don't all of them pray in similar fashion? O bai rituals are best learnt when witnessed in presence, Nimaz that we offer is a symbolic surrender of ourselves to obey ALLAH, Saalat on the other hand is something greater than symbolic obedience.

So stop praying them? Stop offering Salutation to the Prophet Muhammad and Abraham and their families then? Stop doing ablution then?

Prayer is the platform to connect to ALMIGHTY ALLAH. It is not symbolic. Prayer is the telephone line to connect to ALLAH. That's why Prayer is important because that is only way to connect to ALLAH. And it is compulsory to offer prayers five times to ALLAH because we offer prayers for ourselves, not for ALLAH.

Duas are mentioned in Quran ............ ???? So?

Salutation [duas] is not mentioned in Holy Quran.

Hajj and Umrah have been rendered as one big gathering with rituals ......... ineffectual ....... these gatherings served a bigger purpose and cause in past. You should think why United Nations was created they felt the need for it and used it, we already had a platform and we rendered in ineffectual.

Hajj and Umrah as ritual?

Top five pillars of Islam;

* Declaration of faith
* Zakat [Taxes]
* Fasting
* Prayer
* Hajj

If we cannot afford the cost to offer Hajj, then offer charity as substitute in the name of ALLAH. Other than that, all those lists are important including Taxes and Prayers. Without them, it can easily take us out of fold of Islam.

Ends of time ............. understand Quran, its proposed system and you will understand ends of time without any need of a prophecy

Really? Tell me which Surah in Holy Quran prophesied the naked Arab Shepherds building the tallest buildings to compete against each others?

I have long list but this will be enough for you i think. All the best.

Sunnah the acts of Messenger (Peace be upon him) ............. always remember the audience of the message weren't men only, the Messenger had his own personal private life as well. His own adopted son disagreed with Messenger and didn't listen to his advice (its in Quran)

Biography of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), his lifestyle, the commentary of Holy Quran based on the background of each verses are recorded in the extensive Hadiths.

Quran is supreme anything that contradicts Quran is not Islam. As simple as this.

Holy Quran is supreme but also incomplete without Authentic Hadiths. The above is the prime example of that.

Quran is a message for all the humans to come, please it had nothing to do with backgrounds and situations of people of that time only. It was a book from a start. Don't make it sound as it was only for people of some certain time. Quran interprets itself better than anything else.

So we don't need the commentary for the background to understand what transpired the events resulting the revelation of each Surahs imprinted in Holy Quran over the periods of 20 years?

Without background, Holy Quran is ripe open to interpretation which is the reason for confusion in the first place.

No ...... States have Islam attached to their names ........ Pakistan could have been a perfect Islamic state if early leaders had survived some more years.

You do know that earlier leader aka founder of Pakistan known as Jinnah (R.A) envisioned Islamic democracy based on secularism which the narratives over the years are recorded has been consistent which didn't sit well with the Ulemma who subscribes the conservative mindset rallying the banner of Islam while their political ideology against the women, equality [everyone are equal regardless of the faiths], liberalism for multiculturalism and diversity. To the extent, they rejected Jinnah (R.A) and his Pakistan, yet they came to Pakistan like shameless.

Ahmedhiya community is one of strong points that supported Jinnah (R.A) for Pakistan through thick and thin. Under blasphemy laws and certain sections, they are declared non-Muslim while Jinnah (R.A) acknowledged them as Muslims as others because they believe in ONENESS OF GOD and Prophet-hood of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) despite not acknowledgement of finality didn't matter to the school thought of Scholars.

Don't forget that it is same blasphemy law which was invented long gone after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and His family and companionship (R.A) to ensure that the nation is controlled like sheep didn't last long because it was against Islam. Then, British Kingdom employed the same Blasphemy laws to control the population like sheep when pre-Pakistan/pre-India was under the invasion of British Kingdom. And now, blasphemy laws is back in late 70s/80s long after the founder of Pakistan is gone. Otherwise, his vision based on Allama Iqbal (R.A) would have outright rejected Blasphemy laws including certain section that declares Ahmedhiya community as non-Muslim.

 

[The Accountant]

You

Clearly, you are not familiar with the Golden Age of Islam that endorsed secularism for 600 years which hosted more than millions of Christians/Jewish and many more, progressed in all fields including the science which the very source of education outsourced to lift Western world from the age of depression, thus the era of modern Western world based on the secularism platform gifted from Ottoman Empire.

Democracy began the day when Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) died. They held oral elections which then put Abu Bakr (R.A) to the power. Democracy is quite old concept than you can imagine.

Islam is all about equality. Secularism and Islam are similar because both focus on the equality which bears the fruit of multiculturalism, diversity, unity.



KSA and Iran have been fighting for many years for the sectarian of Religion. The keyword is sectarian.

Clearly, you are not familiar with the ground reality of Middle East. Even Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (R.A) prayed for the wall between Iran and KSA so it wouldn't come to the sectarian wars based on 1300 years ago. Alas, it was not meant to be.

Petro dollar is not same as sectarian. Sectarian is totally different story, but i don't have time to explain the concept of sectarian that goes back to 17th century for Wahabbism as far as i am concerned, and for Shia, goes back to 6-7th century. It was the seed that materialized which later became internal wars between Muslim empire to Muslim empire; Ottoman Empire vs Persian Empire [Safavid and many more], Mughal Empire was Persian Empire [Safavid and Afsharid], and KSA vs Iran.

Foreign policy whether on Petro dollar, geographically strategic, trading port is totally different story which takes to the whole new levels which i have no time to explain here. Suffice to say, the sectarian war is not stranger to the Muslim worlds for centurions.



TTP is terrorist-outfit, but they use religion as factor to further their political ideology which is based along with the lines of Wahabbism/Salafism. Never mind the fact that TTP is Indian-funded Afghan-based Terrorist-outfit but the reasons TTP flourished in Pakistan because of support from the majority of conservative with the mindset of extremism similar to Wahabbism/Salafism and the ethnic factor [Pukhtoons].

Religion is involved inherently and because of sectarian, Religion gets further involved as people further their political ideology in the name of the Religion that appears to work strangely in Pakistan.

Ottoman Empire was smart to introduce Sultanate System to separate Religion from the state, and only then, they flourished, and ruled fore centurions. Similarity in the Western world following the separation of Religion from the State, they too have flourished. Only in the state where the Religion is separated from the state can rule efficiently and endorse multiculturalism in many ways.

Otherwise in the Religion mandated system, too many issues such as sectarians, political ideologies, difference among the school thought of Ulema, politicize the minority and foreign faiths through the force [Blasphemy laws] and barbarism laws as punishment fueled by political ideology.




Try removing almost closer to 2 billion Muslim community then. Muslim world is busy killing each other in the name of Religion to further their political ideology based on the sectarian.

And you haven't answered as to which version of Islam is right to impose against the community that is divided over the sectarian of Islam? And if democracy was the tool to remove Islam, that could have easily been achieved long time ago. But that is not the case here. Western world follow Islam unknowingly than Muslim world does.

You will find Islam in spirit in Western world than you do in Muslim world which mostly are for namesake unfortunately.

* Western world treats the children equally, prioritize girl over son whereas it is opposed in the Muslim world, not to mention, girls are deprived from the inheritance.

* Respect for women in the Western world in regards to equal opportunity as men enjoy. No honor killing as opposed to the Muslim worlds where the women are demeaned, characterized, denied of equal opportunity, and used for slavery [kitchen].

* Western world has room for the multiculturalism and open to all kind of faiths where people from all kind of faiths are open to practice their faith. Minority in Muslim world gets killed in the name of Religion or Sectarian of Religion either way following the examples of Ahmedhiya, Shia [Sunni-Shia], KSA/Iran aka Wahabbism/Shiasm, inequality [men and women], and liberalism is considered as crime.

* Western world is flexible to other genders as well as sexual orientations. But Muslim worlds plague them to death unquestionable.

And there are more but you get the gist.

have so many contradicting statements ... For example:

Initially you are saying that Ottoman were secular but then you are referring to secterian conflicts between Ottoman and Persians ,,, doesn't sounds logical ...

Then you are referrign Hazrat Umer RA and saying he wished for wall between Arab and Persians at the time when there was no sects and yet you are saying that Iran and KSA are having secterian issues ignoring centuries of history

I will send a detailed reply to your claims right now I am busy ... But all of your arguments are baseless specially pertaining to Islam ... You are not making your claims on Islam based on teachings of Islam but on your own self made definition of secular islam

 

[Finer]

You

have so many contradicting statements ... For example:

Initially you are saying that Ottoman were secular but then you are referring to secterian conflicts between Ottoman and Persians ,,, doesn't sounds logical ...

Ottoman Empire employed Sultanate System that paralleled with the concept of secularism. In fact, Ottoman Empire invented the secularism. It is system, not title. It is system like the welfare.

What do you think Western world got the concept of secularism from? The welfare system? Democracy? In fact, Ottoman Empire endorsed the spirit of multiculturalism which hosted millions of Christians/Jewish and many others for centurions.

Sectarian conflict between Ottoman Empire and Persian doesn't sound logical? It is history. And judging by the sectarian wars in Middle East in today's time, you cannot be honestly surprised about that.

Then you are referrign Hazrat Umer RA and saying he wished for wall between Arab and Persians at the time when there was no sects and yet you are saying that Iran and KSA are having secterian issues ignoring centuries of history

Because of the prophecy of long sectarian war that will indulge Muslims killing each others. You would know it if you read the Authentic hadiths for the prophecy.

I will send a detailed reply to your claims right now I am busy ... But all of your arguments are baseless specially pertaining to Islam ... You are not making your claims on Islam based on teachings of Islam but on your own self made definition of secular islam

I am beginning to think you lack both; Islam and the history. Take your time, and please research the history as well.

 

[I.R.A]

Really? Tell me which Surah in Holy Quran prophesied the naked Arab Shepherds building the tallest buildings to compete against each others?

I have long list but this will be enough for you i think. All the best.

For you its all about prophecies? Wait and let the prophecy fulfill itself. No need to look understand Quran in accordance with our own times, no need to worry why we are living in a cesspool, a hell like life. Just wait and one day all our problems will vanish and we will straight land in paradise without even blinking an eyelid. You think Quran was revealed based on events of certain time, no message for people who would come in a different time and from a different culture.

Holy Quran is supreme but also incomplete without Authentic Hadiths. The above is the prime example of that.

People will call me stupid if I start telling them Electricity is incomplete without appliances it runs. Quran was revealed some three centuries ago before anyone even came up with written books of hear say. People during those three centuries were perfectly fine and doing good without having these books.

Let us wait for an appropriate thread to discuss this further, I am not feeling very well today so pardon me I cannot answer all your points and further this discussion.

 

[The Accountant]

Ottoman Empire employed Sultanate System that paralleled with the concept of secularism. In fact, Ottoman Empire invented the secularism. It is system, not title. It is system like the welfare.

What do you think Western world got the concept of secularism from? The welfare system? Democracy? In fact, Ottoman Empire endorsed the spirit of multiculturalism which hosted millions of Christians/Jewish and many others for centurions.

Sectarian conflict between Ottoman Empire and Persian doesn't sound logical? It is history. And judging by the sectarian wars in Middle East in today's time, you cannot be honestly surprised about that.




Because of the prophecy of long sectarian war that will indulge Muslims killing each others. You would know it if you read the Authentic hadiths for the prophecy.




I am beginning to think you lack both; Islam and the history. Take your time, and please research the history as well.

I lack Islam and history woww ...

For your information democracy initiated from Greeks and not from Ottoman, you really need to read history, Ottoman society was highly autocratic and not a slight of democracy at all...

Multiculturalisim did not initiated from Ottoman as Ottoman were pretty harsh on Europe, infact if you read the history most of the battles fought were from Europe ,,, The influx in Turkey of European was due to the fact that it was damn rich and center of economic activity ...

Western world got secularisim from French revolutions where they put aside both kingship and church as both were unable to resolve the problem ,,, if your point is correct then west should have removed church only in favour of kingship just like Ottoman

Regarding Hadith well the most famous hadith about end of times was not about Persia, but about Najad, and Najad is Arab excluding Hijaz,,, all the Fitnah is to start from Najad, Persia has very little coverage in hadith ...

Anyways, again and again, you are giving totally irrelevant and contradictory historical references and you are saying that I don't know history, I am studying history books from the time of primary school as that was my hobby, and I have set of Sahay Satta in my bookshelf from where I keep on referring topis every now and then,,, on my way to office I don't listen to music but to Quranic Tafseer, so if I have no knowledge of Islam and history then I don't understand what your standards are but I am pretty sure that you are not setting the same standards for you ,,,

 

[Solomon2]

...we will do whatever it takes to serve the justice to the culprits and continue spreading our message of peace, prosperity, and inclusiveness in the society through education.

Radicalised education
19-Sep-17 by DailyTimes

Sir: We all cry over plights of Rohingya Muslims. We also fiercely condemn the inhumane treatment Muslims face at the hands of religious bigots everywhere in the world, especially in the West. Moreover, we demand equality and freedom of religious practices. All is justified. But do we reciprocate and whether minorities are safe and get equal rights in Pakistan? Recent death of a Christian student, Sharoon Masih, in Burewala speaks of volumes in this regard. Hypocrisy is at its best.

Owing to radicalisation of our education system it is hardly surprising that a Christian student was barred from using a water cooler as it would contaminate water and make it unfit for pious Muslim students to drink. This had compelled Sharoon Masih to remain thirsty throughout the long hours of schooling in this hot weather. However, Sharoon rebelled and his attempt to drink water from the cooler cost his life at hand of his classmate. This is not an isolate incident,the country’s education system has deeply been radicalised at all level mostly universities. Paradoxically, universities have become breeding grounds of intolerance and extremism. Militant organisations recruit students from these universities. Hostels are sanctuaries of the “agent of chaos”. Moreover, investigation in Mashal Khan case has also revealed that there is unholy nexus between corruption and extremism in campuses.

The scenario is very gloomy and for sure an existential threat to the country. Thus it demands an urgent but comprehensive workplan to fight this monster. The plan can be divided into two phases: short-term and long-term goals. For short term, security of campuses and proper monitoring of student activities are necessary in order to prevent any misfortune.

For long-term goals, first a drastic change must be brought into the curriculum. One of reasons behind our radicalized society in general, and campuses in particular, is the teaching of distorted and monolithic history, which breeds hatred in the hearts of students. Hence, a pluralistic narrative is required. Time is short and the country is at the stake.

KASHIF HASSAN
Karachi

 

[Finer]

I lack Islam and history woww ...

For your information democracy initiated from Greeks and not from Ottoman, you really need to read history, Ottoman society was highly autocratic and not a slight of democracy at all...

Democracy is old concept. That was point made already. That goes way way back, and even oral election was used in the spirit of democracy to put Abu Bakr (R.A) in power.

Ottoman Empire brought secularism. There is more to it but i am not gonna go in detail.

Multiculturalisim did not initiated from Ottoman as Ottoman were pretty harsh on Europe, infact if you read the history most of the battles fought were from Europe ,,, The influx in Turkey of European was due to the fact that it was damn rich and center of economic activity ...

After Ottoman Empire conquered Europe, what happened next? Exiled them out of Europe for more than 600 years?

Ottoman Empire ruled them just, and boosted multiculturalism. From there, secularism and welfare, thanks to Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (R.A), was invented to boost multiculturalism and diversity. Hence the system 'Sultanate'.

And they ruled for more than 600 years as millions of Jewish and Christians lived there with peace and harmony.

Western world got secularisim from French revolutions where they put aside both kingship and church as both were unable to resolve the problem ,,, if your point is correct then west should have removed church only in favour of kingship just like Ottoman

French revolution is recent. If anything, it was inspired from the history.

Western world got secularism from Ottoman Empire because Muslim scientist/philosopher invented secularism after his bitter experience with the so-called Thakedaar of Islam with their conservative mindset. He realized that there is no way multiculturalism and diversity can happen with so-called Thakedaar of Islam who were not fond of Non-Muslims just as Muslims are not fond of Ahmedhiya community in Pakistan or Arab Wahabbism for Persian Shia. Hence the purpose of secularism because secularism is in line with Islam since Islam is sent as mercy for the entire mankind; Muslims and Non-Muslims. Islam is about multiculturalism, diversity in the line with equality and so does secularism.

It is no wonder why secularism was invented by Muslim scientist/philosopher and Jinnah (R.A) envisioned Islamic democracy based on secularism.

Secularism doesn't mean Atheism. Secularism means equality regardless of the background, faith.

Regarding Hadith well the most famous hadith about end of times was not about Persia, but about Najad, and Najad is Arab excluding Hijaz,,, all the Fitnah is to start from Najad, Persia has very little coverage in hadith ...

End of Times covered pretty much the entire Middle East including Iran and Saudi Arabia. It is painful ending which i will not mention here.

And fitnah has already started. Arab regions comprised of Middle East led by the in-charge originated from Najd. That Najd is now Riyadh. And that fitnah is called Wahabbism. Horn of satan will rise from Najd and it will affect the Muslim worlds. Thanks to Wahabbism, Middle East is infected with terrorism in the name of sectarian wars which you are not familiar with.

It was the same leader originated from Najd that betrayed Ottoman Empire leading Arab regions to revolt and supported British Kingdom. Hence the creation of Israel.

Wahabbism is the result originated from Najd too.

Anyways, again and again, you are giving totally irrelevant and contradictory historical references and you are saying that I don't know history, I am studying history books from the time of primary school as that was my hobby, and I have set of Sahay Satta in my bookshelf from where I keep on referring topis every now and then,,, on my way to office I don't listen to music but to Quranic Tafseer, so if I have no knowledge of Islam and history then I don't understand what your standards are but I am pretty sure that you are not setting the same standards for you ,,,

Just because you don't understand or you are not familiar with the history, it is best to research about it instead of calling it irrelevant and contradictory with no content to back with just because you are confused.

And you are in primary school. That is the age of learning and observing, not making the comment on which you know nothing of. There is no harm in that.

 

[Finer]

For you its all about prophecies? Wait and let the prophecy fulfill itself. No need to look understand Quran in accordance with our own times, no need to worry why we are living in a cesspool, a hell like life. Just wait and one day all our problems will vanish and we will straight land in paradise without even blinking an eyelid. You think Quran was revealed based on events of certain time, no message for people who would come in a different time and from a different culture.

Now you are discrediting prophecy because prophecy is not detailed in Holy Quran? For what length are you willing to discard from the prophecy, Sunnah, concept of Prayers/Hajj/Ablution, to Tasfeer to make Holy Quran as singular?

If you take hadiths away, then that rules out biography of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Then it won't take long to discredit Holy Quran. Many tried that in the past. If there is no Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), then it is hard to argue over foundation of Holy Quran when there is none to trace.

People will call me stupid if I start telling them Electricity is incomplete without appliances it runs. Quran was revealed some three centuries ago before anyone even came up with written books of hear say. People during those three centuries were perfectly fine and doing good without having these books.

Not knowing doesn't make one stupid. Bear in mind, i never intended to call you stupid. I simply said you lack history which makes it not knoweth all. Mr knoweth it all sounds arrogant sometimes. I apologize for that if i sounded that sometimes.

But appliance is not complete without electricity. ALLAH is without need, but ITS Holy Quran is not. ALLAH has perfectly devised two things in mind to ensure that Islam flourishes, because one without other is as hollow as open to interpretation.

Those empire progressed because those civilizations had Holy Quran and Hadiths [or scrolls] in original language learned from the direct source over the period of 20 years.

1400 years later, we have too many school of thoughts over some differences since we are good as translators as they acquired to best possible information they had translating from the original language [with interpretation they learned].

From what i have gathered the gist of Holy Quran; Islam is more closely to the secularism in spirit and vice versa. In fact, it is Islamic secularism because in Islam, it also accounts for faith such as Monotheism and finality of Prophet-hood while promote equality in all spirits. No wonder why Islam ended slavery, put feminism on top, and promoted multiculturalism ranging from Arabian regions to Europe, Subcontinent, Asia and all over the world now.

Let us wait for an appropriate thread to discuss this further, I am not feeling very well today so pardon me I cannot answer all your points and further this discussion.

I am sorry. Please, take your break. I think you should be on bed rest and we can carry on the discussion some other time, GOD Willing. My prayer is with you.