15 Jordanian F-16 for sale

[A2Z]

Well I don't completely disagree with the people who are of the idea that buying more secondhand F-16 is a waste of money. They are right when they ask until when PAF would be looking for an interm solution rather than opting for an option that can clearly send chills across the border, something like EFT or Su-35.

However on the other hand they fail to realize that PAF at the moment is determined to replace as many Mirages and F-7 as they can in shortest time possible. If we compare the F-16s we are buying with the planes we intend to replace F-16s are better in almost every aspect. One more aspect they need to look at is the economy, yes the economy is improving but it is still miles away from the target.

To sum it up I believe a PAF pilot in Viper stands a better chance against a Mig or a Sukhoi then the one in a Mirage or F-7. Infact I am of opinion that PAF must also explore the possibility of getting more F-16s from Turkey and Egypt.

 

[volatile]

Used F16 is like this ,similar to French mirages from 1960`s

 

[CHACHA"G"]

One needs to understand the reasons behing this buy. We are in a bind due to multiple reasons.
Firstly finances which contrary to the general perceptions are unlikely to improve in the next 5 yrs at least if that. With the upcoming recession which could turn out to be the worst ever one needs to be careful with money.
The notion of this or that being junk needs to be qualified. With the notification is a word document which tells us that most air frames have 2500--3000 hrs worth of life on them. At roughly 200hrs of flight time annually that will give you10-15yrs on these airframes.
The cost is likely to be 5-7 million dollars per unit which by any standards is quite manageable. It wl also allow you to upgrade the plane the soct of which will still remain bearable and its life can be extended. In that manner the US stuff is quite robust.
You are best suited for a fleet of bl.15s for which you have infrastructure and capability to maintain a fleet of 100plus planes. Therefore from this aspect also it seems a reasonable buy.
The last thing which all of you are forgetting is that we are a the cusp of generation change in fighter planes. It is liekly that most of your adversaries will be firelding 4.5++ or 5th generation fighters in 10 years time. As such with a resource crunch, a need to replace 190 fighters and an obsolete fleet we neither have the resources or even the right platform to take care of our needs for the next 3
20-30 yrs.
As such I dont think it is the right approach to be spennding 3-5 billion on a fighter which could well loose relevance in your war theatre in a decade and a half. So from that aspect also it seems a good buy.
A 350 fighter fleet with 100 F 16s plus 250 JFTs will give you a decent fleet good enough for you to await the arrival of the next generation of fighter planes.
If you look at things from this perspective it makes sense of PAFs logic of not going for the 8 bl. 52s without the support from the US CSF. It was too little for too much.
Now under these cìrcumstances do you still see this buy as junk and useless? Please remember you can only spend that which you have. I would love to have a Mercedes but if my finakces only allow a Toyota that is what I will buy.
Regards
A
PS:- At the last sale it was mentioned that the Jordanian fleet is maintained by PAF/ Ex PAF staff. This could be an added benefit as we will know these planes inside out.
A

Sir one Question only 350 birds ! Are they enough for 800+ IAF advance Birds ? and don't you think its the right time to have a 4.5++ Bird ? , we are already 10 to 15 years late for that.
And I totally agree with you these F16s are best if we want to add some good power without extra this and that. But is it safe and good enough to have 250 JF17 (even now it have many short comings) , and lots of fellow members here talk about many upgrades in JF17 , if we do that the price of the bird will go up , when the price go up we will lose the dream of a cheap and affordable Bird (although I am against this logic from day one) so when the price is going up Y not we look for some other Bird with TOT or we have completely new bird of our own or we can change the airframe designee of JF17 to make it new Bird???????
Thank you

 

[CHI RULES]

Why on earth...
PAF has been operating these F-16 since the 1980s.
We need diversity in our airpower like having Su35's to assist also in Naval patrols or Euro fighters.
It was exactly the right time to move into newer jets deadlines for 5th generation 2023 We could've used Euro fighters or su35's effectively till then.
PAF policy makers are just thinking one dimensional

Why do you think Pak will nor get another platform besides F16s?

Used F16 is like this ,similar to French mirages from 1960`s

Sir I beg to differ, if they get required upgrades they shall be much better similarly Mirages have served Pak much better in times of sanctions.

 

[volatile]

Sir I beg to differ, if they get required upgrades they shall be much better similarly Mirages have served Pak much better in times of sanctions.

I am not referring to capability im referring to the strategy ,In course of 10 years we have to replace all F16 we have /had /planning to induct so 10 years down the line PAF statement coming up will be by 2030 we have to replace 100+ F16 which make the back bone of our Air force ,Not being critical but needs to see larger picture

 

[Paksanity]

Buy what can do that job, not because some thing is cheap.

Scenario, PAF needs to provide active cover to advancing infantry.
But fails to do so, because they purchased cheap AC.

Not the ones that could face, Rafale, T-50, Mig 29, Jaguar, Sukhoi etc. that does not matter.
What matters is PAF got cheap deal, and they kept buying an aircraft that is unable to face the above list.

F-16 can handle anything India has at the moment. India does not have Rafale or FGFA by the way. As far rest, with the exception of Su-30, these F-16 can chew Tejas, MiG-29s, Jaguar and Mirage-2000. So what exactly are the complaints?

 

[Sinnerman108]

F-16 can handle anything India has at the moment. India does not have Rafale or FGFA by the way. As far rest, with the exception of Su-30, these F-16 can chew Tejas, MiG-29s, Jaguar and Mirage-2000. So what exactly are the complaints?

I must apologize, I remember we saw that great capability @ Kargil.

 

[Paksanity]

I must apologize, I remember we saw that great capability @ Kargil.

Kargil war did not involve PAF nor were those upgraded F-16s. You are under the impression that IAF did some miracle by bombing on their own side?

 

[Bratva]

F-16 can handle anything India has at the moment. India does not have Rafale or FGFA by the way. As far rest, with the exception of Su-30, these F-16 can chew Tejas, MiG-29s, Jaguar and Mirage-2000. So what exactly are the complaints?

The problem is with the recent upgrades of Mig-29 and Mirage-2000, they are at par with F-16. So no, F-16 can not chew them Indian Upgraded migs and Mirage-2000's

 

[khanasifm]

Stick to the topic no need to go into India vs Pak or paf vs iaf discussion

I dot see anyone here with hours on the type nor work experience with lm, Mikoyan or dassult

 

[sady]

Buy what can do that job, not because some thing is cheap.

Scenario, PAF needs to provide active cover to advancing infantry.
But fails to do so, because they purchased cheap AC.

Not the ones that could face, Rafale, T-50, Mig 29, Jaguar, Sukhoi etc. that does not matter.
What matters is PAF got cheap deal, and they kept buying an aircraft that is unable to face the above list.

You do know we are broke?

 

[Paksanity]

The problem is with the recent upgrades of Mig-29 and Mirage-2000, they are at par with F-16. So no, F-16 can not chew them upgraded Indian Upgraded migs and Mirage-2000's

F-16 is highly upgradeable. If one has the money, these jets can be upgraded with Sabre AESA and AM standards. That my friend will chew upgraded MiG-29 and at least defeat Mirage2000 upgraded. It will also be a match for Su-30 in certain areas but will lack Sukhois range and payload.

 

[Bratva]

F-16 is highly upgradeable. If one has the money, these jets can be upgraded with Sabre AESA and AM standards. That my friend will chew upgraded MiG-29 and at least defeat Mirage2000 upgraded. It will also be a match for Su-30 in certain areas but will lack Sukhois range and payload.

I think its better to restrict our scope of our argument on realistic expectations and present capabilities. The grim reality is, Our F-16 wont be upgraded further from present configuration. The grim reality is with the backing of Israel,france,sweden and america, The current capabilities of both mirage and mig matches more or less 95 percent of our F-16 fleet except block52 surpasses them in some areas not in all areas. But with the future upgrades and advancement of technologies in Israeli and french , russian tech, Mig-29 and Mirage has 100 percent more chance to get AESA radar and AESA jammers thus surpassing 100 percent of F-16 fleet capabilities.

The grim reality is, India has fairly very good idea of F-16 block 52 electronic and radar capabilities thanks to more advanced singaporian block-52 being stationed inside India. So they have complete profile of F-16 and Our side of block-52 wont give them any unexpected surprises

 

[Windjammer]

Why is it that every time a weapon is tested or purchased, people start comparing with other side.
When was the last time an aerial battle took place between the two sides, in 80s we fought aerial battles on the Afghan border, for the last several years, our air force has been involved in WOT, for arguments sake, when was the last time IAF fired in anger, doing some ad hock missions within own territory on a designated area during kargil is no big achievement.
If we get these F-16s, they will certainly enhance PAF's capabilities as they are much more capable systems than say the F-7s or Mirages and can easily counter any outside threat.

 

[araz]

Lolz, so you are already on it!!
Just saw that post and agree with what you said.

Saw your profile. What was the negative rating for??
A

How many F16 we have now? 31 out of 1982_4 batch, 14 from 1992 batch delivered after 2004, 18 block 52, 13 ex_jordenian and 2 more I think from 1992 batch( if I,m correct). That equals 78. Not 74.
From anywhere we get second hand f16 , we must welcom

76. The last two were just a part of the original 4 that went to US for MLU and returned later.This addition if it happens will bring it up to 91. We could still do with one more squadron of either MLUs or new to bring us upto where we whould have been.
A

Inducting them is like filling a small hole dug from a bigger hole in my view ,regardless of life left in these birds we are dangerously closing towards 2030 where another 100+ top line fighters would have to be replaced so 10+ year is a time we see newer platform .This is a dangerous game as 10 years what will be coming as we all know all planes need 20-30 years of development .So F16 block 52+ will be 20 + Years old (Considering operational times in various operations) it will be due after 25 years so by 2030 all F16 will have to be replaced . Can any one shed light on how many platforms we are looking at post 2030 . ?

15 years is a long time. I think from the perspective of platforms this is the last western platfrom that we will buy. The next inroad PAF makes will be a local/hybrid effort which is the logical progression from the JFT building phase and subsequent development. My thinking is that the days of 5th generation fighters will be numbered and the aviation industry may quickly move over to 6th generation unmanned platform for obvious reasons as capacity and capabilities and demands increase. So what happens in 2030 remains to be seen but I suspect our reliance on the west will decrease significantly.
A

not sure if you understood what I said.

My argument is around questioning PAF's wisdom ; because they are doing what others are NOT doing.

The men in blue have the history of making "short termed" decisions. F-7 is one of them. F-16 inventory getting grounded due to sanctions is another. Talk about them.

F-16s design is what it was, what has improved are attachments and armaments.
If your argument was correct, USAF would not have developed newer designs, as has every other country.

Unless you come back and tell me, PAF knows and can manufacture each and every part that goes in the aircraft from mechanics to software I doubt you will convince a lot of people.

It pays to step outside the box, and take a new look at things afresh.

Preparation is done in advance, that means today we prepare from the threats we will face 15 years ahead.

Now tell me do you trust Men in blue with their Secondary school education ?

Interesting post. The aviation city is a step in the direction that you mention. PAFs history is one of resource constraints,and embargoes after embargoes (The french one in 99 hurt us the most in many ways). Some of them were obvious and others not so obvious. These short term decisions as you state are a rssult of these two factors. Out of the box solutions can be thought of in the light of availability of these two factors along with availability of suitable solution. I dare say if you sit in the Chair of ACM of PAF you will end up making those same short term solutions. At the end of the day beggars can't be choosers.
A